It is so hard to just sit idle while you spout misinformation. I had planned to do this privately and I still think that we should because you seem to enjoy the attention.
To begin with The Catholic Church does not need to Interpret Sacred Scripture. She was there when Scripture was written. The Writers of Scripture were there and they were the Ones that Taught those that went on to teach others. She was there when Christ Himself explained everything to His Church and Commanded His Church to � Go to the Ends of the world and TEACH��.
Chuck, most of what was taught was taught by Word of Mouth�ORALLY! Nothing was written down until years later. There was an Oral Tradition in The Church that was Guarded ZEALOUSLY! There was no problem with excepting the Catholic Church as The Sole Authority concerning Sacred Scripture until after Luther rebelled.
It wasn�t your church Chuck that Christ Commanded�your church started�what�10 years ago from another church that split from another church because their Pastor offended them by demanding that they do something that their interpretation of Scripture said differently.
Your church get�s its interpretation from The Holy Spirit�right?
What does your church say that this Scripture means?
2 Thessalonians 2:15
�Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.�
And what about this one?
1 Corinthians 11:2
�I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you.�
And this one?
Titus 1:9
He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
It seems that Scripture says that the �message� that has been Taught must be passed on, but of course since The Holy Spirit shows you the correct interpretation�it should jibe with what The Church has known since the beginning.
So�Chuck�what does The Holy Spirit say this all means?
He can't really admit that possibility, because everything falls down around it if he does. Every tradition the Catholic church has instituted that can't be found in the bible would fall by the wayside, basically removing all faith in the Catholic church doctrine. I think that would be a pretty hard thing to admit.
(your words) ��instead of giving a direct answer, you just point your finger to say �They do it too!�
How more direct must I be with my answer?
(my words) "There can be no justification for their actions. They will have God as their Judge. The way the Catholic Church has handled this is atrocious. I�m sure if you thought about it you could find similar instances in non-Catholic churches."
Chuck,
(your words) �As Christians we do not always hear the Holy Spirit perfectly. Nor do we hear Him on every point. We for the most part all admit this.�
(my words) This must really make it difficult as to ascertaining what exactly The Holy spirit is telling you. It would seem that you might make errors because of the fact that you do not
��hear the Holy Spirit perfectly. Nor do we hear Him on every point. We for the most part all admit this.�
So�if you sometimes make errors�how can you be certain that you are not in error now? I am absolutely certain that Jesus said that He would give His Church The Holy Spirit to ensure that something like this would Not Happen!
(your words) �I would rather strain to hear imperfectly the perfect Holy Spirit than hear perfectly the imperfect interpretations of a man, ie; one who calls himself the Vicar of Christ�
(my words) Again you admit that you�d rather rely on what you �think� is The Holy Spirit than any person God Places in Charge. Pretty much you�d be the only one not Obeying Peter back in Acts, because you �thought� The Holy Spirit was �talking� to you.
Joey,
��how can you exalt any of them them as the final authority on scripture interpretation?�
I�ve gone over this�over and over this.
(your words) ��it's a good practice to say, "I could be wrong" on secondary issues like "soul sleep, but as far as what God has shown me through prayer and His word, this is how I see it." I don't see it the way some do here, but I am not going to get on my high horse and start attacking everyone who disagrees with me! So who is right? I have my own opinion and so do others here~but only God through man can give the right answer, that is how the Holy Scriptures were written~God inspired.�
�I don't see it the way some do here, but I am not going to get on my high horse and start attacking everyone who disagrees with me! So who is right?
Joey�my point exactly! How can we claim that The Holy Spirit speak to us and through us when we have so many diverse interpretations of Scripture? That�s not the way God set things up! He started One Church with Full Authority because She (Christ�s Bride) was given the Full Deposit of Faith.
Don�t says that She lost it or pawned it or whatever, but that would be to admit that Christ Lied! Christ does not LIE!
Joey�we are HUMANS! We are SHEEP! God knows this�God knows us! That is why He left a Shepherd here on earth for us. If left to our own we would do exactly as we have done�run off and started 38,000 different churches.
Again�I have been in many of these churches. Many are Spirit-Filled and are Saving many Souls. A book without a Teacher is a book that will be MisUnderstood! That is why God established a Teaching Church.
Chuck�I have never said that The Catholic Church has never made a mistake. History proves that She has. What I have said is that She is The Sole Authority on Scripture because She was there when it was written and Christ left Her Responsible for it�s Vouchsafing.
Also�I am a bit confused�are you saying that there should be 11 commandments or 9 commandments?
I think Mark and I are saying the same thing : It is NOT okay to make a image of God.
The act of prayer and worship is a spiritual matter, when one chooses to kneel of pray to God before statue or symbol there becomes a little tug of war as where to focus your attention.
Btw; I have no problem with art work, but should never be placed in a place of worship for the above stated reason.
Some Catholic Churches have Jesus on The Cross...some don't. To me it reminds me of How much Jesus Suffered for us. Do I believe that this statute is really Christ? Of Course not!! Do I worship this statute? Ridiculous!
I've seen Christians Kissing their Bibles. I've seen them kneel before an altar. I've seen paintings of Jesus in homes. Crosses around necks and even some that have kissed that cross. Are these sins?
I submit to you that they are not. It is as been said...intent is of all importance. If it is the intent to exalt these inanimate objects as being Above God than YES...it is a Sin!
God Commanded that an Ark be constructed with Angels on it. This Ark was Revered and held as most Holy! It Pleased God! Was God sinning by doing this?
Think about what you are saying? Please do not follow the path of those before you just because they are your family. God gave you a mind...use it...think.
Arch, ya can't see the trees for the Catholic church~I rest my case as I've said all there is to be said. No man, not Moses, Paul, Peter, Pope saint anyone or John could be leading any group of believers today as the final, sinless interpretating authority of God's word. Paul said "follow me as I follow Christ"~ That means he could be human and err (outside of divine influence when he wrote scripture) and knew we would all need the inner guidance of the Holy Spirit. Even Jesus operated by the indwelling Holy Spirit, except He never strayed from the constant" being led" part, like ALL men have at times. You choose man to follow, I choose God and some help from His people ( at times) when they are being led by His Spirit in my understanding. There will never be unity among believers of all denominations, on secondary subjects, until Jesus Himself sets up His throne on this earth again.
Anyway, when have you admitted you could be wrong about "she"???
How do I know if I am hearing the Holy Spirit right?
*answer~ scripture
You would do good to do the same when listening to the catholic chruch.
You said I would be the only one opposing Peter by following the Holy Spirit.
*answer~ Gal 2:11 (Paul speaking) "When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong."
(Steve, how can the Pope, the successor of Peter,'The Vicar of Christ' be infallible when Peter himself was wrong on occasion?)....sure like to hear a answer on that.
Lastly, you saying the catholic church was there at that time the scriptures were written is like saying the NFL was there at the time the rules of football were written ......not to be disresprctful, but do you realize how absurd that is?
To answer : I agree as to paintings and symbols, there is a fine line that CAN be identified, I believe the catholic church has crossed that line by a un-fathomable amount.
As to the ark : It was in the Holy of Holies behind a foot thick curtain and only one priest once a year entered. There is a example in scripture where the Israelites thought it had magic powers and took it into battle, were defeated and lost it.
No, it is not ok in my opinion. I was making the point that there are two commandments there. One is "have no other Gods" and one is "don't bow to graven images". The distinction between the two is this: It is possible to have other gods without idols. It is possible to try to worship the real God through an idol. Both are wrong. Am I making sense? If we made an idol of God and worshiped it, we would not be breaking the first commandment(have no other gods), but we would be breaking what I believe is the second commandment(don't bow to any graven images of anything, even if it's of God). So to say they are both the same commandment is erroneous in my opinion. They are not both the same commandment, or at least not on the same subject, and it makes far more sense for it to be "have no other gods" and "don't make graven images" instead of "don't covet" and "don't covet".
@Arch
"Don�t says that She lost it or pawned it or whatever, but that would be to admit that Christ Lied! Christ does not LIE!"
This would be an instance of our beliefs clashing. I do not believe Jesus lied because I do not believe the "church" is just stuck in the four walls of the catholic church. The "church" is the whole body of believers from every denomination, all walking toward and learning and practicing and holding up the truth that God has given them. (By the way.... Koinonia87? You aren't a catholic are you? Is he in the church of Christ then, Arch? Am I?) You've basically called me a liar, but I think you just don't know every facet of my beliefs and it's causing confusion. I'm learning that I don't know every facet of yours either, but there are some things that your church has done, the "mistakes" you admit to, that tells me there is no way that this church can be trusted to interpret scripture because they misinterpreted it so horribly in the past. They're learning from their mistakes, but I don't think they're there yet, and I'm not going to believe your "four walls" unless they teach more truth than tradition and I don't believe they do. From my point of view, your church follows more traditions of men than they follow the bible, and the bible even talks about that. They've made commandments of God to have no effect by their traditions.
Keep the seventh day holy? Your church said it doesn't matter, and that men or man's traditions can choose instead of God. They made a commandment of God of "no effect".
"The seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God".
There are pictures of popes bowing to statues/pictures of Mary/Jesus, and the bible says not to do that. They say that it's ok because they're not really worshiping the statue/picture(even though it does encourage their followers to place undue emphasis on statues, etc). Another commandment of no effect by the traditions of men.
"Thou shalt not bow down to them, nor serve them"
And it doesn't just say "don't worship them" it makes it clear that we're not even to bow or reverence them in any kind of spiritual/religious way. God didn't ask/let the Israelites bow to the ark or any "object", no matter how holy it is. The holy angels won't even let men bow to them, because they know how far it is from the truth. To God be all glory. If there were biblical examples of God approving of man-traditions over the commandments of God I could see your point a little better, but there isn't. Not only that, but there is never any instance where a prophet or apostle bowed to a statue because it reminded him/her of God. The concept didn't even exist in Christianity during the apostles time, just like the concept of keeping a different day holy didn't exist. Where did those concepts come from?
:peace::peace:
Isaiah 29
"Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me, and their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men"
Mathew 15
"Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition."
"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."
Mark 7
"For, laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men"
Colossians 2
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."
