It is so hard to just sit idle while you spout misinformation. I had planned to do this privately and I still think that we should because you seem to enjoy the attention.
To begin with The Catholic Church does not need to Interpret Sacred Scripture. She was there when Scripture was written. The Writers of Scripture were there and they were the Ones that Taught those that went on to teach others. She was there when Christ Himself explained everything to His Church and Commanded His Church to � Go to the Ends of the world and TEACH��.
Chuck, most of what was taught was taught by Word of Mouth�ORALLY! Nothing was written down until years later. There was an Oral Tradition in The Church that was Guarded ZEALOUSLY! There was no problem with excepting the Catholic Church as The Sole Authority concerning Sacred Scripture until after Luther rebelled.
It wasn�t your church Chuck that Christ Commanded�your church started�what�10 years ago from another church that split from another church because their Pastor offended them by demanding that they do something that their interpretation of Scripture said differently.
Your church get�s its interpretation from The Holy Spirit�right?
What does your church say that this Scripture means?
2 Thessalonians 2:15
�Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.�
And what about this one?
1 Corinthians 11:2
�I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you.�
And this one?
Titus 1:9
He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
It seems that Scripture says that the �message� that has been Taught must be passed on, but of course since The Holy Spirit shows you the correct interpretation�it should jibe with what The Church has known since the beginning.
So�Chuck�what does The Holy Spirit say this all means?
Thanks for accepting my apology, I just got to thinking since you don't know me you could take it personally when it wasn't meant personally.
Okay to address the matter at hand ;
It is your postion that "having to other gods before me" is the same as,"you shall not make a idol".
The reason this is doesn't hold water is because the Hebrews ( and people in general ) have a tendency to make caricatures of their God. This commandment specifically states making making no idol in the form of anything in heaven, this would include God himself.
Hopefully you can see how one can build a idol and claim to worship the one true God, there are examples of people doing this in the bible. If you will notice, God even instructed altars to be made out of,"uncut" stones. God has forbidden anything to be made in, "His image". By removing this commandment you leave the door wide open for statues that,"represent" God.....idol worship.
Well...the bible does say "thou shalt not bow down to them, nor serve them(graven images)", it doesn't say "thou shalt not bow down to them and serve them". It's a crucial conjunction, and I would still like to ask why there even are graven images that christians bow to or show reverence to. In the old testament, God instructed His people to destroy pagan high places and idols and alters. They didn't have statues in the Temple. Why do we have them now? And why did they combine those commandments to make two commands over one that speaks of the same issue? Jesus/the bible made no such split.
"And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth." (Lk 12:15)
"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." (Rom 7:7)
"Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Romans 13:8-10)
Arch, Sparrow has already given you permission to post publically anything of his that he sent you, so trying to make him look dishonest by �hiding� his response from the public is kind of pointless.
It is as easy for you to be humble toward a Youtube video as it is for those who argue against you, only to be mocked, to take you seriously.
You sound like an addict, I can quit any time I want! If you are done making your point, stop tearing down everybody who disagrees with you. Of course, it is all conveniently somebody else�s fault.
Anyway, Arch, you really need to step back and take a look at your attitude. It is embarrassing the way you are treating other believers, and how unbearably conceited you seem to be. Sorry if you honestly believe that Don�t and Sparrow are dodging your questions when in reality, you just don�t seem to want to know their answers for any other reason than to launch another high-and-mighty argument.
�I want to know what you think of all these priests and pastors as well, so I'm not just pointing out the Catholic church~that have been getting busted left and right for molesting innocent children? And you think these guys are our "divine guides?"
"There can be no justification for their actions. They will have God as their Judge. The way the Catholic Church has handled this is atrocious. I�m sure if you thought about it you could find similar instances in non-Catholic churches."
Instead of giving a direct answer, you just point your finger to say �They do it too!�
You are the one being snide. You are the one ignoring questions. You think they are doing all of these things, when you are truly doing that and more right back at them.
1) The youtube video was for your benefit, you said a commandment wasn't missing, this video by a catholic explains it. You seem strangely quiet about the missing commandment now......
2) As Christians we do not always hear the Holy Spirit perfectly. Nor do we hear Him on every point. We for the most part all admit this.
3) I would rather strain to hear imperfectly the perfect Holy Spirit than hear perfectly the imperfect interpretations of a man, ie; one who calls himself the Vicar of Christ!
4) You skate on thin ice when you poke fun at the Holy Spirit.....don't you know scripture? Mark 3:29 and Luke 12:10. You would be wise to look these scriptures up.
No, we do NOT have statues of Luther and angeles in our church buildings. We do NOT even have Jesus on the cross! Which brings me to another point, since Jesus is God, wouldn't a statue of Jesus be a graven image of God, meaning you have graven images of God in your church?
And Arch, this whole argument is not to say you aren't saved or anything, I believe you are saved if you follow God to the best of your knowledge/ability. I'm just trying to point out that, in my opinion, the Catholic Church has not followed truth throughout her existence. She has not kept the full deposit of faith, and she has chosen to follow man-made traditions over the commandments of God, which would eliminate her from being the sole body of Christ and/or the church that Christ set up. I know that maybe it is possible that "true Catholics" may have a different belief system than the one that is commonly seen/portrayed, but a lot of what they do(or did at some point) conflicts with the bible quite directly.
Celibacy requirement for clergy
Calling anyone "holy" or "father" besides God
Indulgences for sin
Forgiveness only through confession to a priest
Punishment for sin confessed to a priest, decided by the priest
Judging a believers salvation and executing judgments of torture/death
Deeming common people unfit to read the scriptures
Claiming that communion at least once a year is necessary for salvation
Claiming that you can achieve sainthood and then can be invoked by others for prayer/miracles
Claiming sinlessness for Mary
There's probably a lot more, but I'm going to stop there...
The failure is not in God, it's in man~"But God is true; and EVERY man a liar, as it is written, That thou mayest be justified in thy words, and mayest overcome when thou art judged. Romans 3:4
That includes the priests and pastors and they will answer to God for their sin, right Arch? If these earthly men can sin, as we all do~ how can you exalt any of them them as the final authority on scripture interpretation?
As far as which Holy Spirit any of us is listening to? the only One if we search for Him with our WHOLE hear and God's word in humility~ When we have discussion in these forums, and someone turns out to be prideful, sarcastic, hurtful, flaming others etc. trying to defend our beliefs? The fruit of it speaks of man's weight or sin and not the indwelling Holy Spirit.
It's a good practice to say, "I could be wrong" on secondary issues like "soul sleep, but as far as what God has shown me through prayer and His word, this is how I see it." I don't see it the way some do here, but I am not going to get on my high horse and start attacking everyone who disagrees with me! So who is right? I have my own opinion and so do others here~but only God through man can give the right answer, that is how the Holy Scriptures were written~God inspired.
Cited from Carm.org~2 Timothy 3:16-17, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17: so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
The Word of God is inspired so that you might trust it to be accurate when you...
1. TEACH
1. To teach you must know what is right.
2. You can't teach if you don't know what is right.
3. Therefore you must study,read the Bible on your own, fellowship with other believers, fast, pray, etc.
2. Learn about the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the resurrection, salvation by grace, the consequence of sin, hell, heaven, the return of Christ, etc.
2. The Word of God is inspired so that you might trust it and be accurate when you...REBUKE
1. To rebuke means that scold and correct in a sharp way.
2. To urge someone to stop sinning:
1. believer
1. Perhaps a Christian is in sin.You are to warn him.
The Word of God is inspired so that you might trust it and be accurate when you...CORRECT ~ You can correct erring doctrines or understanding or even bad interpretations of scripture.
You can even correct YOURSELVES when you examine the Word and discover any errors you may have in understanding or practice.
Personally, when I used to teach bible classes, Sunday school or sing, I would fast and spend long hours in the word to crucify my flesh and allow the Holy Spirit to flow through me. I have had to humble myself many times and say I was wrong on (secondary subjects) as far as I can see right now~"we see through a glass dimly" unless we are walking after the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:1~There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The Christian who walks after the flesh instead of the leading of the Spirit produces works of wood, hay and stubble (1 Corinthians 3:12). Everyone's works will be tried so as by fire. Fleshly works will be burned and spiritual works will endure. We are told, "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:15). Therefore, worldly Christians face a certain amount of condemnation.
We must remember that the word condemnation not only carries the meaning of judgment, but also of disapproval. [3] John informs his "little children" that the heart of the believer is able to pass such condemnation or disapproval on our Christian living (1 John 3:20-21). Not only is there a judgment for believers who stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ (1 Corinthians 3:12-15; 2 Corinthians 5:9-10), but there can also be a judgment on believers that may cost them their lives if they continue in sin (Acts 5:1-10; 1 John 5:16). Biblically speaking, there is condemnation for believers who walk after the flesh and not after the Spirit.
The forums are a place of many opinions and we must take what is said with a grain of salt and search our bibles and pray for ALL truth in our own private time with God, not go to the priest, pope or pastor for answers after hearing them. And stay HUMBLE.
Twosparrow, you asked if I believe having another thing or person before God is the same as making an idol.
To that I would say no. It is acceptable, as DontHitThatMark said, to create an idol or image of God as an act of worship and praise to him and to give him glory. Its intent is to remind its creator and those who view it of the awesome power and grace of our God, the works he has done, and the salvation he gives to us through Christ. When used in this way, I see nothing wrong with it. They must be regarded in their proper place as something that honors God and points us to Him. To give them our worship is wrong.
As I understand you, you are saying even in this context an idol is wrong and forbidden. If you are saying that the act of creating a carving of anything on heaven or earth is wrong, I cannot agree. When the Lord says, "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below." his intent is not to put artists out of business.
To carve a fish out of a stone or piece of wood as a work of art is not wrong. It glories in God's creation and gives him praise and due honor. If you worship and put your trust and your faith in it, then you are breaking God's command. That is the point he is driving home. It is precisely because the Israelites were prone to this kind of worship that attention is drawn to it and it is made explicit. Context is key. He is telling them don't worship my creation and the things in it. Do not put them first, but worship me.
Dont, I see your point. Are they necessary? Absolutely not. Should we bow or serve them? Not in worship as our God. Yet we serve people all the time. We respect kings, rulers, and those in authority as God's earthly representatives. Bowing is a gesture of that respect. It need not be worship. Likewise when we kneel at the cross it is not in worship to it, but in humble recognition of the sacrifice Jesus made for us so we could have forgiveness and eternal life. When I look at an image of Jesus holding a lamb, I do not worship the picture. Instead I am reminded that he is my Good Shepherd and he knows me as one of his sheep. What is sinful in that? Yes, it is possible to begin giving that object your focus instead of God, but that is an issue of attitude and thought. Its creation is not sinful. He did not order the high places, altars, and idols be destroyed because they were carved wood and stone. He commanded his people to destroy them because they were being worshipped apart from God and placed before him. He is a jealous God who demands the right recognition as the only true God and only object of our worship.
Luther presents the Ninth and Tenth Commandments this way:
The Ninth Commandment.
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house.
What does this mean?--Answer.
We should fear and love God that we may not craftily seek to get our neighbor's inheritance or house, and obtain it by a show of [justice and] right, etc., but help and be of service to him in keeping it.
The Tenth Commandment.
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his cattle, nor anything that is his.
What does this mean?--Answer.
We should fear and love God that we may not estrange, force, or entice away our neighbor's wife, servants, or cattle, but urge them to stay and [diligently] do their duty.
In effect, he makes the destination between property owned and those living within our neighbors care. You may argue that it is all covetousness and that distinction is artificial. I would say it helps us understand that we can be covetous toward others in addition to things. You may say the issue of putting another before God and the issue of worshipping or bowing to graven images are quite distinct. I view them as inextricably bound.
"I see your point now, but I still have serious questions about the way that the dividing of the commands went about. "Idolatry" and "having other gods before God" are two separate issues, because it is possible to try to make a idol/statue of God/Jesus and try to worship God that way. That is not having other gods before God, but it is idolatry."
I was trying to say that idolatry and having other gods before God are different subjects/commandments, because it is possible to make a graven image of the one true God and still commit the sin of idolatry if you bow to it. God doesn't want us making images of Him and bowing to them any more than He wants us to bow to images of other gods.
:peace::peace:
P.S. The bible implies coveting as one commandment.
"Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Romans 13:8-10)
"And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth." (Lk 12:15)
"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." (Rom 7:7)
