It is so hard to just sit idle while you spout misinformation. I had planned to do this privately and I still think that we should because you seem to enjoy the attention.
To begin with The Catholic Church does not need to Interpret Sacred Scripture. She was there when Scripture was written. The Writers of Scripture were there and they were the Ones that Taught those that went on to teach others. She was there when Christ Himself explained everything to His Church and Commanded His Church to � Go to the Ends of the world and TEACH��.
Chuck, most of what was taught was taught by Word of Mouth�ORALLY! Nothing was written down until years later. There was an Oral Tradition in The Church that was Guarded ZEALOUSLY! There was no problem with excepting the Catholic Church as The Sole Authority concerning Sacred Scripture until after Luther rebelled.
It wasn�t your church Chuck that Christ Commanded�your church started�what�10 years ago from another church that split from another church because their Pastor offended them by demanding that they do something that their interpretation of Scripture said differently.
Your church get�s its interpretation from The Holy Spirit�right?
What does your church say that this Scripture means?
2 Thessalonians 2:15
�Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.�
And what about this one?
1 Corinthians 11:2
�I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you.�
And this one?
Titus 1:9
He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
It seems that Scripture says that the �message� that has been Taught must be passed on, but of course since The Holy Spirit shows you the correct interpretation�it should jibe with what The Church has known since the beginning.
So�Chuck�what does The Holy Spirit say this all means?
Apology accepted. Directing this at no one in particular, I have zero interest in the sorts of personal attacks and discrediting that I see occurring in these forums. It deeply saddens me to see it happen among brothers and sisters in Christ. On the other hand, I am more than willing to engage in the discussions insofar as it allows us to come to a mutual understanding of each one's position.
To address your points:
*First of all since when is the Bible "commentary" ?
Never. Perhaps it was a poor and misleading choice of words. My intention is not to hold one portion of Scripture above or below any other.
*Second of all this particular piece of scripture is a "official document" a treaty, covenant stipulation of ten. It does NOT contain commentary!
No, but the Lord furthers his instruction. I'll take the example of his command to "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy." In any common listing of the the commandments, that is how it generally would read regardless of the number assigned. Yet, it is natural to ask what that means and how one keeps the Sabbath holy. The Lord answers that by instructing them to work for six days and rest on the seventh. He makes no exception for man, woman, child, or animal, and he goes even so far as to state his reason: "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."
*Thirdly how can you say the content is preserved when 82 words (a complete commandment) describing something not found else where in the official document is DELETED?
If your going to count words, there are verses dropped in every common listing of the commandments. I gave you one such example above. You may consider all of that part of his command to honor the Sabbath Day. I won't argue that. The fact remains it is abbreviated in common use. (Let me know if you disagree on that point.) That is exactly what is done in the common listing of the First Commandment by Roman Catholic and Lutheran churches. (For that matter it is the same with the Jewish listing, though for them it is the second commandment. They have yet a different numbering, the first being "I am the Lord your God." taken from verse 2.) We list the first commandment as "You shall have no other gods before me." You may consider verses 4-6 to be the complete listing of the first commandment (when taken with verse 3) or further instruction on it. The difference is semantics. Either way, it is directive from God that is to be kept by his people. Put another way, you cannot worship an idol or graven image and say no one comes before the Lord. All of it is idolatry with instruction on a specific, gross form that was immensely relevant to the Israelites when Moses received the commandments. (Remember, they were out making a golden calf). It is no less relevant today. We simply assume this and all other ways we place things before God as part of the First Commandment. In no way is it lost. Point any Lutheran or Roman Catholic to those verses, describe those behaviors. They will answer with the first commandment. We consider it no less acceptable. The words are not commonly given just as you would not commonly give verse 11 when asked to recite the fourth commandment.
*Lastly my Hebrew Interlinear Bible has a comma in the commandment that was split....not a period!
This is where I would simply reiterate that the Bible neither numbers or determines the respective order (meaning order is not important) of the commandments. Jews have done it one way. Lutherans and Catholics do it another way. Eastern Orthodox and Reformed churches do it still another way. One may make more sense than another, but sense is a dangerous tool for interpreting Scripture. I am not saying one way is correct or the other wrong. I would actually argue the difference in numbering is not important.
From Archimedes/Steve�s reply above as explanation for the graven images:
"Ok, question time for Arch. Why does the Catholic church remove the second commandment and split the 10th into 2 different commandments?"
2 �You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.
I suppose you have a photo of some Loved one in your wallet? Do you also have any at home...on the mantle perhaps or on the wall? Are any of these of Loved ones that have passed away? Do you hold these photos in high esteem? In a fire are they one of the things that you try to save?
Statutes are held in similar esteem because of the same reasons that you hold your photos in such a high esteem. They are not "alive"...they are not to be "worshipped". No sane Catholic does that and The Church forbids it.
I suppose you have a photo of some Loved one in your wallet? Do you also have any at home...on the mantle perhaps or on the wall? Are any of these of Loved ones that have passed away? Do you hold these photos in high esteem? In a fire are they one of the things that you try to save?
My thoughts are:
I have photos of loved ones in my wallet and wall but I surely know they are who they are, what they look like. I don�t have images of them made nor offer candles, parade them in processions and I don�t pay prayers to them saying, �please pray for me�. God is spirit, we are told to worship him in spirit.
So we do know the esteem we held our love ones is different esteem paid to these images we talked about. They have different languages and those who prayed to them have different languages also, different time like your morning is my evening, when are they listening, when are they answering, when are they repeating the petitions to God, when to receive answers from God, distribute the answer to who prayed for what and soon. They are not resting in peace at all because so many people are making them so busy. Clearly they are all made omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. We know they are not, therefore� wake up! What is your religion doing to you? Who or what are you to your religion? Just pause and think about it.
This is where I would simply reiterate that the Bible neither numbers or determines the respective order (meaning order is not important) of the commandments. Jews have done it one way. Lutherans and Catholics do it another way. Eastern Orthodox and Reformed churches do it still another way. One may make more sense than another, but sense is a dangerous tool for interpreting Scripture. I am not saying one way is correct or the other wrong. I would actually argue the difference in numbering is not important.
My thoughts:
Just because group of men did it another ways mean it is of no importance. Just because everybody does it, it must be right/correct? I believe God inspired how his Word is written. The first commands are sin against God, the rest are sin against fellow men. By deleting the second command clearly stating that just making graven images is prohibited (not yet bow down or worship) and rely on �have no other gods before me� is misleading. It also deletes the warning on the curse for the third to fourth generations. Think about who those third and fourth generations be? Is it possible disturbed youths and the not so youthful comprised these cursed generations?
Similar to shortly stating �honor your father and mother� �why? � because it also deletes the promise� �so that it may go well with you� �that if it seems like nothing is well with you, might be you missed to honor your parents.
Splitting the tenth I think is just to make up for the missing second command. Why do we need to edit the Word of God? Why not state it as it is? Here the shortened version is widely written in Catholic walls without directing where in the bible it is found. Maybe it is just a short sightedness if the reference is there also just giving them benefit of the doubt. But the reference is nowhere, seems deliberate to hide this deletion and splitting. We miss the one curse, we miss the one promise. With the explanations posted why it is so, surely it is deliberate.
Revelation 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
So Steve and Konoinia87, is it worth it to play editors of God's word?
You Tube video!!! Wow!!! And I am the one that�s NUTS! You make such a thing about �it�s The Holy Spirit that guides me into all truths�. I do not hear any voices in my head. I would worry if I ever did hear �voices� in my head. If I have any problem interpreting Scripture I go to the Sole Authority that God left for that purpose. I asked for your interpretation of a few verses of Scripture. Instead I received the runaround. It was only in private that Two gave me what The holy Spirit told him the interpretation was�why could he have not done so on The Forum?
��the others are answering you by the guidance of the Holy Spirit��
So which Holy Spirit is guiding those of you that disagree with each other? Don�t speaks about his church�s Doctrine about �Soul Sleep�. Where in Scripture is that? Which Holy Spirit guided that?
The Holy Spirit is not Schizophrenic! It does not lead one in one direction and someone else in another. This is why Christ started a Real, Physical Church here on earth. This is why Christ did not allow His Plan of Salvation to be pulled back and forth like a spinning top by men.
For over 1500 years there was only one Church. Yes, She has made mistakes�yes, she needed reforming and correcting, but�the Full Deposit of Truth left to Her by Christ has not been altered.
I never intended to get into a �spitting match� here. This all started and continues because someone said a �Lie� about the Catholic Church a select few continue propagating Lies and Half-truths about my Church. I could do the same�I have not.
You Tube video!!?? Is this were we are suppose to get our information about God and Truth??? What happened to his Pastor�his church?
The Scripture I posted all point to the undeniable truth that there was an Oral Tradition being used in The Early Church. Also Scripture itself tells us that there were many things that Jesus Taught that was Not Written Down and Paul himself says in Scripture ��there is much I have to tell you, but will wait until I am in front of you�� (paraphrasing).
It is these things (Oral Revelation or Tradition) and Scripture (Written Revelation) combined with The Authority of The Teaching Church that Ensures that God�s Plan of Salvation is not Derailed and that His Church remains Intact. When you get away from this and allow anyone to claim that The Holy Spirit speaks to them and that they have Full Authority to interpret Scripture�what you get is what we have today�38,000 different religions based on Scripture.
As long as the core beliefs are kept�there is not that much danger and in most cases a lot of good is being accomplished and souls are being saved. It is the ones that stray too far that are a danger to those that follow them.
I would be fine not having to defend my Church. I have repeatedly asked Chuck to refrain from snide remarks and from saying things that are not true and he has refused to oblige.
It seems that a Catholic that does not passively stand by and allow his Church to be lied about is not welcomed here.
�I want to know what you think of all these priests and pastors as well, so I'm not just pointing out the Catholic church~that have been getting busted left and right for molesting innocent children? And you think these guys are our "divine guides?"
There can be no justification for their actions. They will have God as their Judge. The way the Catholic Church has handled this is atrocious. I�m sure if you thought about it you could find similar instances in non-Catholic churches.
This all started with me defending a lie that ��only the Priests get to drink the wine.� Should I have let that lie go unquestioned?
Discussions of matters of Faith should be a good thing�if done in a fair manner. When one party refuses to answer questions and instead chooses to filibuster or lie�it devolves into a �spitting� match.
You Tube video!!! I need to act humbly towards that?
I would like to thank you for your civility and lucidness in your argument. You do not use lies�only opinions and that is what discussions are about.
I will admit that there are some Catholics that do take it too far and do end up �worshiping� statues�to the extent that they make them seem alive to them and not a �symbol� of that which they adore.
I got lost in the rest of your argument. Not quite sure where you were heading. I think you were saying that God is Spirit and we are to pray to Him in Spirit? Yeah�I agree, but nowhere in the Catholic Church is there a statute of God that is prayed to. There are statutes of Mary and Joseph and the Saints and Angels. Why do these offend you?
There are statutes of Luther and other men of the faith in your churches�is that a sin? There are statutes of Angels�is that a sin?
Why were there not a vast outcry against these statutes before the rebellion against the Catholic Church? Why was it only after 1000�s of other churches were started, that this became an issue?
It seems to me that it is just another way to Protest the Catholic Church.
I see your point now, but I still have serious questions about the way that the dividing of the commands went about. "Idolatry" and "having other gods before God" are two separate issues, because it is possible to try to make a idol/statue of God/Jesus and try to worship God that way. That is not having other gods before God, but it is idolatry. It is so very much a lot more two separate commandments than the coveting commands, and the idea that they chose that tiny commandment to split up is very strange and suggests ulterior motives to me.
@Mercy, I appreciate your comments. My response is this: I can't make it more clear that nothing is deleted.
As we number them, here is the First Commandment in it's entirety as drawn from Scripture.
You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. Ex 20: 3-6
Nothing is dropped. The difference is solely numbering. We take all of that as one, cohesive unit. Yes we do use just verse 3 in most listings just as you use only verse 8 in listing the fourth commandment. There are further commands there also to work for six days and rest. It gets specific on those issues just as the first does on gross idolatry and it's consequences. That we do this in no way ignores the rest or regards it as less important as part of God's command to not put others before him.
It is of course wrong to edit or delete from God's Word. I would cite the same verse from Revelation as you. That is not being done. We hold all four verses of Ex 20:3-6 as the first commandment. Can I be more clear?
As for numbering and splitting them, it is not as clear as modern bibles make it to be. It nowhere explicitly numbers them that we can claim one way is intended by God. Indentation and versification are added and not part of God's holy, inspired Word.
Twosparrows, do note that Hebrew at that time of writing contained no spaces between words and no punctuation. I wouldn't expect to find a period or a comma. It compounds the difficulty of making agreed divisions on the commandments. One should not wonder that some do it one way and others another.
@Dont You are right. Idolatry in such a form is not sin. It is at the point that you bow down and worship the image rather than the true God of whom it is to remind you. When one speaks of "committing idolatry" that is the way I would interpret it. Whether named as such, bowing down and worshiping anything other than God puts another before Him. Putting another before him is to worship another and bow down to it (in spirit if not in body). That is why we take those verses as a cohesive unit. There are hardly ulterior motives. I wouldn't even know what to suggest as one. For my part, it certainly isn't to get away with bowing to idols in worship as some are suggesting. It's important to, to note that God is dealing with the heart and what we esteem most there. One may bow to a king or kneel at a cross. It is not a sin of idolatry but merely showing reverence. If one's trust is placed in that person or thing, that is another issue.
