What does it mean to be submissive. I said i ask this question simply because i would like to hear opinions, and understand what it means to each person.
Submission according to the dictionary simply unresistingly or humbly obedient. I would like to define a conclusion i have come to.
I take my conclusion from Ephesians 5 21 -31 NLT. I read it over an over again, and i feel i got a clarity on this topic.
Verse 21 simply says Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
Verse 22-24 tells the woman to submit to her husband in everything.
Verse 25 -29 For Husbands this means love your wives comparing it to how Christ loved the church.
There are some bible passage I would put in this context. 1 Corinthians 11 in some verses
like verse 8 emphasizing woman was made from the Man's Rib
Verse 9 Emphasizing the role of a woman as a helpmate and been made to assist the man
Before Men get arrogant
Verse 11 emphasizes that we are not independent of each other.
1 Peter 3 emphasizes Men to treat women with honor. This is plainly stated that she is an equal Partner emphasizing treating her as you should so your prayers will not be hindered.
I know most of this bible passages are clear to understand nothing confusing about it. It's just hard for men who want authority and don't want to be accountable to a woman. It is hard for a woman in this time of ours simply because the world has seen men as dictators and women need to win their rights back.
In the Kingdom of God we are all joint heirs no one is greater than the other.
Men are to submit to their wives and honor them. Ephesians 5:21 mentions us to submit ourselves to one another. It didn't emphasize just men but also women. Neither did it mention women submitting to women alone not men.
So the first step is submitting to each other.
1 peter 3 1-2 gives the advice to the woman simply you must accept the authority of the Man. Even if the man is not acting right you need to accept his authority. It very similar to having a boss. A good Boss listens to you and serve you as well gives clear directions. If the Good Boss becomes Bad You still have to obey him simply because he has given authority and it must be accepted. No talking of abusive spouses
Ephesians 5:25 Clearly talks to the man Love your wife. If we go by the attributes of love according to 1 Corinthians 13 we men would love their wives regardless of how they behave. Not dependent on how good they perform or satisfy our standard. We won't keep any record of ills we have to be patient, Kind, not be jealous of them even if they have more success. We cannot become irritable, We cannot demand our own way. We can never give up on them and we must endure in every circumstance when they look best and appealing and those days they become overweight or have stretch marks or become all wrinkled up or when they are ill and can't satisfy our desires.
IF we love our wives before making any decision we would consult them and put them ahead in our thoughts. think of how does it affect them.
1 Peter talks of the woman as a weaker vessel. If we have junior ones we teach them and tolerate them because we know they are young, possibly naive and have more to learn. We encourage them even when they make mistakes.
I believe as Men who would want to be authorities in their house. We have to first be a servant (not a slave) For Example Our President is our Servant simply because he serves our interest. he is not a slave who has no opinion of his own. Jesus was the perfect example of a servant. Knowing the authority he had chose to die for us, washing his disciples feet.....
When we become a servant that's when we can lead. When our wives see that we take decisions putting them into consideration, been able to handle situations and take charge and accept responsibilities. When our motives are clear as to whom we have allegiances to, when we shower them with affection. It helps a woman submit easily. If Men don't have their act together or take authority and responsibility it's hard for a woman to submit.
We may push them to having to fill in the gap we have created by differing authority to them automatically.
Women please don't marry a Man you don't trust his decisions or leadership in all areas, even though you love to be submissive you won't be submissive. Simply because you can't trust him with authority, your human mind works into overdrive you tend to take charge. The man sees you as controlling or not submissive.
Men Please don't marry a woman because she is beautiful. Don't use your money, charisma or any appealing characteristics to attract a woman. Those things wear off after living together for a year. If she doesn't believe in your leadership, decisions nor respect your occupation and financial capability. Please don't do it, you will end up regretting it. She would continually compare you & undermine your authority.
To all we can't fix ourselves talk less of fixing the other person. The only person with that Job Title is the Holy Spirit. Please lets depend on Him to change, mold, and refine our heart to continually trust in Jesus to lead us and our families. If we put God first in everything even though our marriages may not be perfect it would have peace, joy, and above all bring glory to the father.
"I simply reject the idea that the spirit of the passage is that men should always be in authority over women."
I wonder are you perhaps overlapping two different issues. As I understood it, we were talking about husbands and their wives specifically and not men and women generally.
Any time we focus on just one principle we will end up with divisions.
I have given much thought and consideration of this topic.
First all of us have that willful rebellion against being in submission to any body not just women.
Submission is a issue of who we are not what we do. We submit to God because we are not our own we have been bought with a price.
The mystery of marriage is two becoming one. As a man in need of a helper I need to submit at times to the help of my wife else what good of a helper would she be. At times my wife needs to submit to my leadership because as a man I see her making decisions due to her emotion.
Submission and leadership is about oneness and a mutual benifit for the two who have become one.
When self comes in and the oneness is broken then submission becomes a effort and soon impossible.
A husband who loves his wife will consider her needs and feelings a wife who respects her husband will trust him to lead.
The key is when this breaks down and their becomes conflict over a decision that is when one or both need to turn their attention to God.
By turning to God and trusting the Spirit to lead the other in the direction that is according to Gods will is the stabilizing factor to this conflict.
I have submitted to the needs of the woman I am in relationship. Does this mean she is leading? No, It means I am loving and being sensitive to her needs.
So my conclusion is that their is no cut and dry answer to this. A Husban and wife who are seeking Gods will for their lives and seeking to fulfill their roles will establish how these things play out in their relationship.
The foundation is trust. When we have trust we give power over to another. We can trust the others motives that they are for our good and not our harm.
A husband is to see his bide as spotless. If a husband thinks his wife is always thinking his wife is always trying to undermine his athority he is not seeing his wife as spotless.
He also is not living with his wife with understanding either. Not saying some women even those who confess christ are selfish at their core.
The act of divorce doesnt happen with paper work it happens when we take back our indipendence and forsake the oneness of the relationship.
When we say I am a individual and I will get what i want no matter what.
I believe this attitude and the lack of understanding of oneness is the reason for such divorce in the church and why the church of Christ is full of adultry.
We as the Church need to repent and die to our will.
One preacher said to carry our cross is where Gods will and our will crosses.
Where is your heart today concerning being ready for loosing your indipendence and becoming truly one? If you are not fully ready then you need to grow more and forget about relationship esle you will end up in divorce once more.
I mostly agree with what you are saying, especially regarding the oneness of marriage and the sacrifice of only thinking as an individual (ideally rarely thinking about oneself). Your mention of trust is also incredibly important to the strength of any marriage. However, there are a couple things I must disagree with:
1) I am constantly bewildered by the notion that making decisions off of emotion is inherently flawed or bad. Throughout scripture, our greatest role models have make decisions off of emotion. Anything involving faith is emotional, as faith is not logical, but even beyond that one can look at the good Samaritan who acted out of pity, not practicality, to care for the man on the road, or even our Lord God who out of his incomprehensible love for humanity, irrationally sacrificed his son on our behalf. How can one rebuke the idea of allowing emotion to guide our actions when the very one we worship does just that? God did not need to save us, he had no logical reason to do so outside of his intense love.
Now, that doesn't mean that one should throw logic out of the window, clearly a God of math like our God likely has much value for logic and reason. I can imagine him constantly smirking in heaven when we figure out something about the universe.
2) I am not sure I understand you correctly here:
"A husband is to see his bide as spotless. If a husband thinks his wife is always thinking his wife is always trying to undermine his athority he is not seeing his wife as spotless."
Are you implying that women who think are rebellious? Not only is this the same kind of thinking that prevented women from having access to education for millennia, but it also seems strange to me relative to your previous point that I addressed. You mention how women act on emotion and feelings and that needs to be correct by someone thinking logically, but then you likewise complain when women think logically? It's a loss-loss situation it seems. Women cannot lead because of their strong emotions, but when they are strong thinkers it's also bad too.
To me at least, I would want my wife to think all the time. A woman who does not think is a woman who does not grow, does not learn and instead stagnates. Jesus taught us to use our talents wisely, and the mind is certainly one of a woman's great talents. Similarly, I would want my wife to correct whenever I make mistakes.
What if I am trying to repair our car and am about to smash my fingers because of a mistake I am making? Would I not want my wife to challenge my authority? What if I misquote scripture in a philosophical discussion? Would I not want my errors to be challenged in place of the truth? Is my personal sense of pride more important the the truth in any form? For me it is not. For me to allow myself and my position to get in the way of growth and knowledge would itself be a sin.
I hope I haven't come across as abrasive or condescending, I am merely expressing my opinions and how they differ with others. Like I said, I mostly agree with your points, but I must respectfully disagree with these two.
Obviously their are good emotions that motivate us and love is one. Jesus teaches about two foundations a house is built upon where the storms and floods come the house built on the rock stands and the house built on shifting sand falls.
Much like our emotions they become like this sifting sand where the Word of God is solid and secure. Even in the garden satin tempted Eve with the emotion and desire. Sating twisted Gods word to fit what his agenda was.
Many times our desire and emotion cause us to act impulsivly and as a husband we have to identify it in our selves and our wives.
Emotions like fear, regret, insecurity are all motivating factors. A husband who lives with his wife according to wisdom will understand her strong emotion and in love lead according to Gods will.
I would have to say that being motivated by love and being led by our emotion are not entirely the same thing.
I agree that a man needs to listen to his wife. I believe I said that in my last posting all I was trying to communicate was for him to not judge her motives as bad and spicifically trying to undermine or controll him.
Because Paul writes in vs 21 about submitting to onanother after he explains about the walk of a believer. Submission in this verse is broad and general in context to what comes before it.
I would give an example of general submission in the church in fear of God. This is how we communicate together as a body.
How many time have you been in a conversation where someone will not give you oppertunity to talk? They are not willing to submit to the conversation and listen.
But think about it if God wanted specifically Husbands and wives to submit to oneanother he would have spelled it out for us in the given description. Paul writes scecifically what God requires from both Husbands and wives.
What I dont understand from women is this. Whats the big deal with submission? You are given one thing. Us men are given a list of responsibilities in marriage.
Women this is your one responsibility alone and please let us men have our responsibility. Is even one thing to much for you ladies?
Exactly...you have to really want it to mean both submit to one another for it to read that way to you. The plain reading of the text is very straightforward.
