In relationships you talk to get to know one another. If things work out the relationship will progress into something more.
My problem is that I can NEVER get to that point because the question always comes up "Do/Have you had sex? My response is always and will always be no I really do want to wait till i'm married. There's nothing wrong with that but guys always stop talking to me after that?
Why is that important for guys to have sex before marriage? Before some one says "Christian guys don't do that" They definatley do.
I've had this experience way to much and I just want to know why this is? Am I the only one left in the World who wants to save it for marriage?
The bible verses you state deal with fornication.The greek source word for that is PORNEIA. The English translation refers more to the latin FORNICATIA than to the greek PORNEIA.
There is a difference between them but that would just result in a huge theologicial discussion which is not the idea of this thread.
I think there is nothing wrong with your personal opinion to relate fornication with sexual immoralty and therefore to premarital sex.
Whether it is biblically or theologically justified has nothing to do with it. It is your opinion and therefore should be respected by men and that includes christians. This is also what I read in the post of Abedjau.
As to sexual immoralty, I think there is a far more concerning development. Husbands who try to convince their wives that there is no harm in exploring the wide territory of sexual pleasures are, in my opinion, far more a threat than those who seek premarital sex.The latter you can easily refuse, as to the first....
Right, the problem is that the bible speaks of porneia which would translate as fornication (if you have a better translation, Harriet, I'd be eager to hear) without expressing, what fornication means.
You might say, that's easy, everyone knows what is fornication and what not, but if you look closely at it, this depends very much of your cultural background, so depending on this there are differences when comparing nations, different cities or sometimes even individuals.
Paul speaks against people in Corinth who misunderstand the freedom in Christ in a way, as they could do anything they wanted now because they were forgiven. He wants to remind people what consequences come from their doing: Their bodies as parts of Christs body becoming one with prostitutes thus making Christ having prostitute body parts. That is taking advantage of God, misunderstanding His grace for laxity (1. Cor 10 shows there is no laxity). 1. Thess speaks about seeking to find one wife in holiness not lust. This again is about love as opposed to lust which makes our next an object. Hebr 13,4 goes in a similar direction...
The reason why I wouldn't want to push my gf to have sex (good point to bring in postmaritial sex here, Harriet)i not rooted in the passages in the bible about fornication, but in the commandment to love thy next. How much love is there if I push the sex? Wouldn't this prove desire being greater than love?
So again, whoever understands the bible, based on whatever interpretation, to say that sex before marriage was wrong, no one has the right to push you to change your mind in order to have sex. Not because of the bibe saying so (this is something people can disagree on as we see), but becase of the love. And what if there is no love? Well, I believe than sex would really be sin, be it within marriage our outside marriage.
You say, "I for example call myself Christian and see no wrong in sex before marriage."
Why was it so wrong then if a woman was not a virgin on the wedding night? That is to say that she had sex outside of marriage and was not a virgin on the night of her wedding. She would be stoned to death. See Deuteronomy 22:13-21 Same with Mary. When Joseph found out she was with child, he was ready to divorce her. He thought she had sex outside of marriage, discounting her as a virgin on their wedding night. She would have been put to death as well. Why? Because she wouldn't be a virgin; it was thought she had sex before marriage. Even during the engagement period, before her and Joseph came together. Sex before marriage was wrong, it was punishable by death.
Paul says in 1 Corinthians 7:2, "Nevertheless, [to avoid] fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband." No wife? No husband? Paul defines sex then as fornication.
You also say, "I do not see marriage as a sacrament. It is not a heavenly thing like baptism or eucharist, it is something that has only to do with this world."
Where does the term "they shall be one flesh" come from, if not from Heaven [God]?
As far as any ceremony goes, you are correct; the Bible is silent. However, we are to submit to governing authorities and requirements as long as they do not go against the Word of God. See Romans 13:1-2 Our governing authorities tell us that we are not married until recognized by the requirements set forth.
BTW, fornication means sexual sin. Having sex before marriage is sexual sin, fornication. Sexual union is to be reserved within the confines of marriage.
In Deut 22 the whole problem is, that there was a (cultural) agreement back then that a woman had to be virgin when getting married. We read nothing about such a rule in the bible (prove me wrong, I'm eager to learn), all we read is that the bible does base some rules on such a law, as in Deut 22. The whole thing makes only sense if there is such a law in society. There was back then. But is there today? Maybe where you live, but not here where I live. Nobody here would think about stoning a woman to death who would not have her hymen intact when entering marriage.
The same you can see in other rules in the bible. Like in the rules about slavery. If I'd take your approach to the issue: "There is a rule about what happens if women are not virgin, so this means there is a rule that women have to be virgins, even though not explicitly written" I would also have to say: There are rules concerning how to treat slaves so there must a rule that slavery was okay.
With both I have problems getting it in accordance with the commandment to love our next. The rules, especially in the pentateuch, were given for a certain people at a certain time. Due to the grace of God, our societies have developed, we have no slavery today any more, nor do we stone women to death for being not virgins. The problem of virginity wasn't even a moral problem back then, it was a problem of money and posession, as no man wanted another man's son to inherit his land. So the woman had to be virgin to not run the risk of having another man's children in the own house and being thrown out once they are grown. Society worked completely different back then.
"They shall be one flesh" is as much from heaven as when God declared what we can eat and what not. Originally, everything has its source in heaven, but not everything is a sacrament. If marriage was a heavenly thing, there wouldn't be the possibility to marry again after the death of the partner, for it marriage would be eternal, like baptism is eternal.
Our governing authorities (at least over here, I don't know the laws of all the US states) have set forth rules about marriage. But they do not say that in order to be in a partnership, one has to marry. They also do not restrict sex to marriage, if the state did so, one was to follow. My state don't (and I think there is no state in Europe that still has this rule).
Marriage is not named in the bible, so the state can do whatever it pleases with marriage, after all it's a non biblical term. It is named in the bible, yes, but there are no rules to it saying that one could only do this or that within marriage.
I tedn to agree with you that fornification includes at least sexual sin. But when you say sex before marriage is sexual sin, I am sorry to say, I do not find this in the bible, nor do I believe it to be true for all the world. This might be true for some cultures, you might be living in one of them. I do not.
@dgrimater:
I'd like to know the verse it says that. I usually use Luther's translation, don't know if you can call him a liberal. But in doubt I refer to the Hebrew or Greek text, so I make my own liberal translation:nahnah:
I do not think Abedjau is promoting sex before marriage. I also do not think he represents the "christian" guys LorielJ is dealing with.
Whatever the reason might be that women do not want premarital sex, it should be respected.
@LorielJ
Nobody is disagreeing with you on your decision to not have premarital sex.
But morals are subject to cultural roots
Where I was born and raised, we make a strong difference in "having sex" and "making love". In fact, the sex thing, as christians, we still think questionable even after marriage.
Also, the picture you show on this very thread where you reveal decollete, would be in the country where I live now, very much be opposed to by christian men!!
You see Loriel?, morals and ethics are very much influenced and formed by the culture and society where a person is born and raised.
I think sex in a relationship is all about respect not about timing.
De Benny, You replied: "In Deut 22 the whole problem is, that there was a (cultural) agreement back then that a woman had to be virgin when getting married. We read nothing about such a rule in the bible (prove me wrong, I'm eager to learn), all we read is that the bible does base some rules on such a law, as in Deut 22. The whole thing makes only sense if there is such a law in society. There was back then. But is there today? Maybe where you live, but not here where I live. Nobody here would think about stoning a woman to death who would not have her hymen intact when entering marriage."
The point I was trying to make was that a woman was to be a virgin when she married. No premarital sex. The consequences were commanded by God in Deuteronomy 22. It was a sin to have sex before marriage. Culture aside, God called it sin, punishable by death. As you say, we don't stone women for having sex outside of marriage, but it still doesn't negate the fact that it was and is sin in God's eye.
De Benny, you also replied: ""They shall be one flesh" is as much from heaven as when God declared what we can eat and what not. Originally, everything has its source in heaven, but not everything is a sacrament. If marriage was a heavenly thing, there wouldn't be the possibility to marry again after the death of the partner, for it marriage would be eternal, like baptism is eternal."
Read Ephesians 5 and consider the spiritual application. God sees marriage as something more than what you can or cannot eat.
De Benny, you said: "I tedn to agree with you that fornification includes at least sexual sin. But when you say sex before marriage is sexual sin, I am sorry to say, I do not find this in the bible, nor do I believe it to be true for all the world. This might be true for some cultures, you might be living in one of them. I do not."
Look again at what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 7:2- "Nevertheless, [to avoid] fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."
What is fornication in this verse if not sexual sin? God is telling us that it is better to have a husband or a wife rather than live in sexual sin or fornication outside marriage. If fornication means something else in that verse than sexual sin, what is it, that it is better to have a husband or a wife in order to not commit this sin? And really, what does culture have to do with what Paul wrote? Do we follow culture more than Biblical commandments or instruction and justify it because that is what a certain Country practices?
you're right. I do not promote sex before marriage. I also do not promote sex after marriage. All I promote is love, and then start from that. Love includes respect. Respect for other people's morals included. But the bible doesn't teach us morals in the first place, it teaches us love. And it is our job to adjust our morals to the lve the bible demands. So even if you have lax morals and want sex before marriage, the love for the other (even before there is a partnership, I'm speaking about the love we ought to have for our next) will command me to respect their choice on having no sex before marriage. It would even mean to not demand sex after marriage, for love does not demand, it's all about giving.
If the Bible does not teach us morals, what do you call those principles of what is right and wrong in our conduct as Believers that we read in the Bible?
