What does it mean to be submissive. I said i ask this question simply because i would like to hear opinions, and understand what it means to each person.
Submission according to the dictionary simply unresistingly or humbly obedient. I would like to define a conclusion i have come to.
I take my conclusion from Ephesians 5 21 -31 NLT. I read it over an over again, and i feel i got a clarity on this topic.
Verse 21 simply says Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
Verse 22-24 tells the woman to submit to her husband in everything.
Verse 25 -29 For Husbands this means love your wives comparing it to how Christ loved the church.
There are some bible passage I would put in this context. 1 Corinthians 11 in some verses
like verse 8 emphasizing woman was made from the Man's Rib
Verse 9 Emphasizing the role of a woman as a helpmate and been made to assist the man
Before Men get arrogant
Verse 11 emphasizes that we are not independent of each other.
1 Peter 3 emphasizes Men to treat women with honor. This is plainly stated that she is an equal Partner emphasizing treating her as you should so your prayers will not be hindered.
I know most of this bible passages are clear to understand nothing confusing about it. It's just hard for men who want authority and don't want to be accountable to a woman. It is hard for a woman in this time of ours simply because the world has seen men as dictators and women need to win their rights back.
In the Kingdom of God we are all joint heirs no one is greater than the other.
Men are to submit to their wives and honor them. Ephesians 5:21 mentions us to submit ourselves to one another. It didn't emphasize just men but also women. Neither did it mention women submitting to women alone not men.
So the first step is submitting to each other.
1 peter 3 1-2 gives the advice to the woman simply you must accept the authority of the Man. Even if the man is not acting right you need to accept his authority. It very similar to having a boss. A good Boss listens to you and serve you as well gives clear directions. If the Good Boss becomes Bad You still have to obey him simply because he has given authority and it must be accepted. No talking of abusive spouses
Ephesians 5:25 Clearly talks to the man Love your wife. If we go by the attributes of love according to 1 Corinthians 13 we men would love their wives regardless of how they behave. Not dependent on how good they perform or satisfy our standard. We won't keep any record of ills we have to be patient, Kind, not be jealous of them even if they have more success. We cannot become irritable, We cannot demand our own way. We can never give up on them and we must endure in every circumstance when they look best and appealing and those days they become overweight or have stretch marks or become all wrinkled up or when they are ill and can't satisfy our desires.
IF we love our wives before making any decision we would consult them and put them ahead in our thoughts. think of how does it affect them.
1 Peter talks of the woman as a weaker vessel. If we have junior ones we teach them and tolerate them because we know they are young, possibly naive and have more to learn. We encourage them even when they make mistakes.
I believe as Men who would want to be authorities in their house. We have to first be a servant (not a slave) For Example Our President is our Servant simply because he serves our interest. he is not a slave who has no opinion of his own. Jesus was the perfect example of a servant. Knowing the authority he had chose to die for us, washing his disciples feet.....
When we become a servant that's when we can lead. When our wives see that we take decisions putting them into consideration, been able to handle situations and take charge and accept responsibilities. When our motives are clear as to whom we have allegiances to, when we shower them with affection. It helps a woman submit easily. If Men don't have their act together or take authority and responsibility it's hard for a woman to submit.
We may push them to having to fill in the gap we have created by differing authority to them automatically.
Women please don't marry a Man you don't trust his decisions or leadership in all areas, even though you love to be submissive you won't be submissive. Simply because you can't trust him with authority, your human mind works into overdrive you tend to take charge. The man sees you as controlling or not submissive.
Men Please don't marry a woman because she is beautiful. Don't use your money, charisma or any appealing characteristics to attract a woman. Those things wear off after living together for a year. If she doesn't believe in your leadership, decisions nor respect your occupation and financial capability. Please don't do it, you will end up regretting it. She would continually compare you & undermine your authority.
To all we can't fix ourselves talk less of fixing the other person. The only person with that Job Title is the Holy Spirit. Please lets depend on Him to change, mold, and refine our heart to continually trust in Jesus to lead us and our families. If we put God first in everything even though our marriages may not be perfect it would have peace, joy, and above all bring glory to the father.
As I said earlier I am not trying to offend. I do not deserve to be told I am being led astray from God because of my belief, I live through example, and through the excellent example of my parents, and grandparent, and aunts and uncles, who are all christians and have been married for 20 plus years and there relationships are not one where the female is submissive but it is a partnership, so if I am wrong then let me be wrong, I am fine with that, because even within my future marriage I intend to keep my independence to a degree. There is nothing wrong with being a strong independent women who states her opinions and beliefs and if you are threatened by that then that is your issue to deal with.
When I spoke of people being led astray, I was not referring to you. godgirl23 was bringing up another topic...so I was addressing that.
Sometimes example can be be very valuable. My point was that the standard is scripture. It was given to us for a reason. Submission does not mean that you aren't in a partnership. It is not a teaching that the woman is less valuable or that her opinion doesn't matter. I think you have witnessed controlling husbands and determined that this is what submission is. That is not the model for biblical submission. It's not a tyranny. Submission doesn't teach that a woman cannot be strong or have her own beliefs...
In other words, like Voddie says in the video I posted....It's not a matter of Value but a matter or order. He also speaks of the drama being played out that the man has to lay down his life for his wife. I mean this sincerely...but you should study other sources on what submission actually means.
@holdingouthope iwould like to know your opinion on the issue of submission. I see you pretty active here from the conversations you have only debated points but what are your opinions be clear about it.
What does it mean to be submissive. My stand is clear submit to one another in reference to Christ. i explained what it means to submit to one another which is basically been accountable to each other in reference to Christ.
I have explained loving your wife.
i also explained the rationale behind women submitting to their husband.
I explained how men are to love their wife's and honor them knowing they are weaker.
I also explained the rationale of joint heirs in the kingdom.
Rather than us holding onto Ephesians 5: 21
Can you give your opinion instead of debating every other person's point or opinion.
What does it mean to you to be submissive to you?
I mention this simply because there is kind of a back and forth going on here it would be better for us to know your view. if there is anything to learn we can learn.
Rather than debating every other person's comment. That i think is the easiest.
Everyone can read the bible and this things can be revealed to each person in their way.
Matthew...I already explained why the bible doesn't teach that husbands and wives should submit to each other. You then asked how then do they submit to one another in marriage. My response is that v21 doesn't even mention marriage.
I'm curious why...If you disagree with me it's okay, but if I disagree with someone, I'm only here to debate people. Why the double standard? I don't accuse you of wanting to debate me when you disagreed with me.
"Everyone can read the bible and this things can be revealed to each person in their way."
Sure but opposites views cannot both be true. So does God tell one person it means one thing and another person it means something else? Just something to ponder
@Brother Holdingouthope, first of all i never disagreed with you in the first place. I stated some opinion i asked for other opinion. I mentioned each according to the holy spirit when you brought up saying i was wrong what the bible said and didn't say.
I asked you questions you gave me an answer based on what you know. i never even replied or went back and forth. i sincerely respect the revelation you have i have no business questioning anyone's theology. I came back here and just noticed you had a disagreement with some folks. i just wanted to get your opinion simple so i asked simply explain what it means to be submissive in your own words not based on what i wrote or typed. its easy to see imperfection in others
The other folks didn't want to share their opinion and i really didn't ask them simply i could see they felt uncomfortable sharing. Even though i wanted them to, but i can't force them to.
Its not about a disagreement or not and i am not in anyway focusing on you. i clearly said instead of debating them lets hear your opinion.
All i just ask is share your opinion.
if you want to fine, if you don't want to i am fine with it. It doesn't cause a disagreement in anyway i even don't see it as one. Always feel free to always contribute to any of my questions or comment in future.
So brother from what you are saying you don't have any opinion except that area which you feel i may have a wrong interpretation.
Lets just accept you have no more contribution to make on this. I accept it and not in anyway do i have a disagreement on this. if you do have a contribution please do make. The topic was for us all to learn from and get opinion on not disagree on.
On the biblical interpretation, sincerely i don't have any business wondering if someone has opposite views or not. The holy spirit whom if you have received teaches each individual as it applies to them on their spiritual Journey. 1 John 2:27 is clear on that.
Trying to focus on our views and what we know and anyone other person that doesn't receive a revelation in the manner we have and then making assumption the person is not spiritual enough or got it wrong is what is termed "Spiritual Pride". I don't want to have anything to do with that. A clear example today is Arminianism and Calvinism each of them claim their reference is scriptural who is right only the Holy Spirit Knows. Only the Holy spirit knows where each person is on their journey and how he deems it to teach him or her. My business is to continually seek him daily to know what he has for me working my own salvation with fear and trembling not on other's salvation or their views. I never saved them in the first place Jesus did. I apologize if i sound rude on this one but thats the minute wisdom i have been given. I pray for God to increase it.
Our views on Ephesians 5:21 you see it as husbands can't submit to wives, i see it as All spirit-filled Christians should submit to one another which includes husbands and wives in reference to Christ. I don't see it as wrong in anyway.
Thanks for your time i did learn a lot from the conversation.
"first of all i never disagreed with you in the first place."
" I did explain beyond verse 21. But can you explain who are the others we should submit to in a marriage. Since it says submit to one another in reference to christ."
" My stand is clear submit to one another in reference to Christ. i explained what it means to submit to one another which is basically been accountable to each other in reference to Christ."
"Can you give your opinion instead of debating every other person's point or opinion."
It's not a big deal, but this is disagreeing with me.
"I came back here and just noticed you had a disagreement with some folks. i just wanted to get your opinion simple so i asked simply explain what it means to be submissive in your own words not based on what i wrote or typed"
Yes I have disagreed with folks, just as they have disagreed with me. I understand you want my opinion. That is fine, but I came to discuss whether mutual submission is biblical in the context there and also jumped in when I noticed submission being represented as male tyranny. So you should grade me on what I have spoken about, not what I haven't. It was never my goal to come her and give a thorough definition of submission. I understand that I have not gone into intricate details of what I believe biblical submission is, but I believe I have represented it more accurately than some others in the thread. Even you would agree that it's not tyranny.
"What does it mean to you to be submissive to you?"
Submission has nothing to do with the ineriority of the female. How does a female submit? Well we look at all the passages in scripture that speak of a woman's role in marriage. She is to be a helper(Gen 2:18-22). Again this does not mean the woman is inferior. The same word is used of God in the OT.
It also doesn't mean that the woman just follows blindly whatever decision the male makes. For instance, she should not follow the man into sin simply because it's his desire.
It doesn't mean she can't take initiative or make decisions(Proverbs31).
The woman submits first and foremost because it's an act of obedience to God(Ephesians 5:22) She is to honor the husbands authority. It works because the husband doesn't rule over her with a rod of iron. He sacrifices for her and he loves her. He cares for her desires, so she has no problems submitting to his authority.
Now...husband and wife will disagree. A good husband will seek God first in prayer and also seek the counsel of his wife. However, at the end of the day if the two cannot agree, she will submit to the decision of her husband. She shouldn't mock him when he turns out to be wrong either. She should pray that he has wisdom the next time to make the right choice. He will likely learn a valuable lesson out of all of this. Anyway...obviously it goes much deeper than this.
"The other folks didn't want to share their opinion and i really didn't ask them simply i could see they felt uncomfortable sharing."
One responded openly and the other I simply asked what the interpretation was and it was assumed I wanted to debate...therefore argument insued on both ends.
"So brother from what you are saying you don't have any opinion except that area which you feel i may have a wrong interpretation."
No, only that this was the topic I wanted to comment on. I never claimed to not have an opinion.
"On the biblical interpretation, sincerely i don't have any business wondering if someone has opposite views or not."
That sounds fine and non judgmental on the surface, but surely you agree there is such thing as truth. If there is such thing as truth, surely you'd agree that it's important to know truth.
"Trying to focus on our views and what we know and anyone other person that doesn't receive a revelation in the manner we have and then making assumption the person is not spiritual enough or got it wrong is what is termed "Spiritual Pride"."
Sure if I had come to the conclusion that people weren't spiritual enough you may have a point. I simply said from the beginning that the context is clear that it's not meaning males to submit to females....also...that submission is ordained by God so if one doesn't want to submit, their problem is with God, not man.
"A clear example today is Arminianism and Calvinism each of them claim their reference is scriptural who is right only the Holy Spirit Knows"
God breathed the scriptures into life so that we could know truth. Otherwise, why would He give them to use. It's not really accurate to say that we cannot know truth.
"My business is to continually seek him daily to know what he has for me working my own salvation with fear and trembling not on other's salvation or their views"
Mine is to continually seek Him as well and also be prepared to give a defense for the hope that is within me, as the scriptures teach.
