Tulip, I do see vasectomy as a problem, and a big one. Naturally I think God does not want every couple to have 20 kids so yes, we are entitled to limit the number of babies IN A GODLY AND RESPECTFUL WAY!!!!!! self-mutilation is by no means approved by God, same as hurting other people or killing them, no matter how proud we are of our civilization and technology (think of abortion, euthanasia maybe?). Elderly couples cannot conceive a child but it is a result of growing old. (this is how God planned it, or maybe it is a result of the original sin, whatever). So no, I don't think elderly couples who have sex go against God's order to be fertile, same as couples who for some reasons are infertile don't do anything morally wrong. But thiose who make themselves infertile - that's a different story.
And yet another thing to comment on the other post of yours, saying about the 'creativity' of women: are you going to spend your life being a husband of an 'icredibly deceitful and manipulative' woman who would pierce the condoms you're about to use?!?! or you're going to suspect your wife of being so? hmm... this isn't a good sing of mutual love and trust, now is it?
I know it isn't a thread on contraception, but let me say it anyways: I hope 'deciding' if something is biblical is more like praying about it a lot, reading the Word and then discerning. As a midwife and a christian I have to say that followers of Christ should not harm their bodies/degrade the functions of their bodies (vasectomy, tubal ligation or hormonal contraception) or make their partner do that. Neither should they parttake in any procedures leading to termination of a (possibly) existing pregnancy (again hormonal contraception, the morning after pill, IUDs). That being said - well, do limit the # of children (if this is what the Lord calls you to do) using natural methods or barrier methods!
I am relatively sure that you just lumped getting a vasectomy in with abuse and murder. There is a huge difference between doing something to yourself voluntarily and intentionally hurting someone else.
As for the "creative" ways I've heard of some women getting pregnant, those are extreme examples. I don't really think my wife or any normal woman would do something like that.
If you're okay with barriers, I really don't understand how you can be against voluntarily placing a barrier closer to the beginning of the system instead of at the end.
Ooo, a tangent!! So...if we had a hypothetical couple that could not take care of more than say...3 children...and having another would be completely devastating and cause them to be unable to support their family...do you think that would be a case where more permanent and effective methods of birth-control would be called for? That's just a hypothetical situation...but lets face it, "natural" or "barrier" methods are not very fool-proof. It would be like playing the lottery except with a 1 in 10 chance to win every year.
Anyway, I don't see it as a "sin". Under the label you've put a vasectomy under, any surgery would be self-mutilation and transgressing God's will as well. If someone is sick, it must be God's will, right? God had many perfect balances in place before sin, and a lot of them are not being followed. I don't think that means we're transgressing God's will. How many here are vegetarians like we we're supposed to be? Anyway, it's not a perfect world anymore, and I don't see anywhere in the bible that labels birth control or surgery as sin.
@ Tulip: as far as I know sterilization almost always turns out to be irreversible. That's a big difference when comparing it with using condoms or something of this kind. Thou shalt not kill refers to hurting oneself/others, too.
@ DontHit: the Bible teaches us that God never gives us more than we can handle. To the contrary, he wonderfully provides for all our needs as we're far more important to him than birds or lillies, right? All He wants us to do is to entrust our lives and put them right into His hands. If you really REALLY I mean really can't afford to have another baby - don't you think God knows about it?!?!?! How much do you trust Him?
Anyway, since there's no official stand on contraception within the protestant churches (or, say, amongst the protestants) - well I can't make all of you change your opinions but I can keep mine :) and continue praying for the guy I am going to marry
So every time a dentist removes wisdom teeth, he commits murder in God's eyes? And stopping fertilization is only ok if can still choose not to the next time? I really want to understand where you're coming from, but I just have a hard time following you.
Wow, great discussion, everybody =) I love talking about birth control and other conception/pregnancy issues!
@Rabbit- Good question about using a surrogate. Personally, I'm not sure where I stand with that. On one hand, it's really appealing, because any future babies of mine would probably be safer inside someone else's belly. But, I think it would be a little weird too... And I think I would be so insanely jealous of the woman carrying my child, and that would be a really bad way to start off motherhood. And I would be afraid that the surrogate would want to keep the baby and that there'd be a huge legal battle. Honestly, I could never be a surrogate; there is just no way that I could carry a child for 9 months and then give it up. It would also be a little creepy knowing that this woman (assuming she was married) would be having sex with her hubby while my baby was in her belly. And, I would imagine that most hubbies would be kinda weirded out by the whole thing.
RE: birth control
I totally understand where you're coming from, Marianna. I'm not against vasectomies, but I did used to be. If you think about how things were when God first created everything... People just let pregnancy happen and they trusted God and they considered themselves to be blessed to have children.
I am against all hormonal forms of birth control (ring, patch, pill, shot) and the IUD... because of their potential to cause miscarriage/spontaneous abortion and because I think we should use caution when taking medicine/hormones/supplements. Unless something is really medically necessary, I don't think that it's appropriate. I don't see hormonal birth control as being medically necessary, since there are other forms of birth control available. I would feel really uncomfortable putting hormones in my body! So, aside from the whole vasectomy thing, I pretty much think that the acceptable methods are barrier methods and natural stuff... Although, I don't really entire agree with all of the natural means of birth control either. I think a husband and wife need to experience sexual intimacy to its fullest extent on a very regular basis, so I don't know that it's really that okay to not have sex for such big blocks of time each month. I think that abstaining during the first few day's of a woman's cycle is about about as long as I'd want to abstain. So, I plan to use a barrier method and my personal preference (based on research, not experience) would be something such as a cervical cap.
Well...I wouldn't go to the "trust" thing. So I should never worry about buying food? God will feed me with ravens right? If I buy food does that mean I don't trust God? I'm sorry for being sarcastic, but there is a little bit of presumption in that theory, and babies are a little more complicated and life-changing than food.
@Marian: Yes, we are supposed to trust God for all our needs. He also gave us all brains and reasoning power, which we are not to put aside. So to trust God 100% to prevent pregnancies while having unprotected sex with my husband, knowing full well we cannot in any way possibly afford another baby ---- is irresponsible and childish. In my opinion.
In my opinion we can't have one with out the other. We can't FULLY trust and believe in God and also stop using our own brains and logic and reasoning. I believe they go hand in hand, and that is the way God planned it.
As for surrogate (surrogacy?)- good question. When I was much younger I would have said "Yes" in a minute. I was much younger then. After thinking about it further over the years --- I could not do it. The exception would be if my sister (or in-law) could not and asked me to carry the baby.
