So forgive the long winded texan, He is at it again:
Today, I made a blunder, when I clicked the Live Chat button.
When I entered the chatroom, what looked like a fight between a guy (name withheld) and a woman(same deal)
She set a very high bar that eliminated a huge percentange of the human male group. And she presented herself in a way that looked no different then a religious legalist.
And the guy started responding to her by listing aspects (what seemed to be from her profile) of who he wouldn't date. She took great offense and said he was insulting her.
Later the guy said lets move on, and apologized. She never acknowledged the apology.
But one thing she said, I had to comment on. She said she would never date a guy with tattoos, and I asked why... She never answered, and someone said that the bible says we shouldn't have tattoos.
To that person, I asked:
"where does the bible specifically state that no one should ever have tattoos other then Leviticus 19:28?"
(which in light of Acts Chapter 15, specifically 15:29, says what part of the mosaic law that US gentiles who follow Jesus are required to keep, exempting us from the Law of Leviticus 19:28)
They never gave a biblical answer. Now yes, we are the temple of the holy spirit, and yes, light has no fellowship with darkness.
But what about having scripture tattoo'd or where it says that God has carved the names of his people on his palms? Can the practice of tattooing be used to the glory of God with thanksgiving?
Also, the other point I raised in live chat was: What if the tattoos a person has are from their prechistian life? Is there no grace for them, but a shunning and excluding from ones list.
Where is the grace in that? If God has forgiven him or her, shouldn't he or she get a second amongst God's people?
Yes, I agree standards are good, and profitable.. but up to a certain point.. then they become a form of rejecting people shortsightedly at the cost of one's own potential gain.
Where do you fellow men stand on Tattoos and other past prechristian choices, with regard to future spouses and is there grace for the future mate?
1 Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead. (Deuteronomy)
I personally wouldn't date someone with tattoos, but I have my own reasons, if they had a tattoo I'd want them to tell me what it was for. It's important to forgive people, though.
I've seen Christians tattoo scriptures on their arms, and it always bothered me.
I don't rail against people for their own convictions, I wouldn't want my convictions railed against. If the Lord has put it on their heart, it's good.
(which in light of Acts Chapter 15, specifically 15:29, says what part of the mosaic law that US gentiles who follow Jesus are required to keep, exempting us from the Law of Leviticus 19:28)
We ARE not exempt from all laws, only those which are ceremonial such as sacrificing.
Leviticus 19:28 - Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I [am] the LORD.
If you ask forgiveness from the Lord, will he forgive you? Yes, I'm sure.
I'm not saying people who tattoo themselves are bad, but read the law in Leviticus, I don't think our lord has changed his mind about it.
Leviticus 19:29 says not to prostitute your daughter, I don't believe that custom pleases the Lord either.
I would like to point out that I never said we are immune from all laws. If anything, Jesus gave us stricter laws, and moved the bar even higher, while also giving us the Holy Spirit and a new nature to help us keep them.
I am speaking specifically of what mosaic laws we are still under.
Which is what Acts chapter 15 is all about.
Rachel, do you think gentile Christian fathers are required to circumcise their sons? Which isn't a ceremonial law, but a covenant commandment from God.
Or is our covenant the broken body of Christ, with the external sign of baptism into his death and resurrection?
And keep every part of mosaic law (except the sacrificial system?)
And bacon, or other port is forbidden for us? This isn't ceremonial, but falls under civil code, and hygenic-dietary law.
Act 15:29 covers not making a harlot of your daughter under the 4 necessary things of mosaic law, specifically "sexual immorality".
"I m not saying people who tattoo themselves are bad, but read the law in Leviticus, I don't think our lord has changed his mind about it."
I don't think he has either, but the mosaic law wasn't given to everyone, it was given to the Chosen People. And I think a lot of people try and force his specific will as expressed in the laws for Israel and for them, onto the whole of humanity.
I beg you to read all of Acts 15 from verse 1 to verse 41, and ask God what He meant when it says
"and it seemed good to the Holy Spirit (God) and and to us not to lay any burden, except this:
"That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."
The Greek word used here, translated into English as "fornication" denotes "sexual immorality, in every form"
Now, I am firmly convinced for myself, that as the Human Body is the temple of the Holy Spirit for those that follow Jesus, it follows then, that we cannot desecrate it with graffiti.
I believe that if we walk according to the spirit (the leadership of the Holy Spirit) and not according to the desires of the flesh, we will through His grace and leadership fulfill the laws that God puts before us.
Every one of these laws that stem out from these two greater laws:
"love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, mind, soul and strength"
"I don't think he has either, but the mosaic law wasn't given to everyone, it was given to the Chosen People. And I think a lot of people try and force his specific will as expressed in the laws for Israel and for them, onto the whole of humanity."
Christians -are- God's people, are they not? They were grafted in, so not only Jews had the chance to be saved, but gentiles as well.
How can it be that gentiles get salvation through accepting him but don't want to follow his laws?
And no one "forced" anything on the "whole of humanity". The Lord knows who belongs to him. I don't force anything on anyone, and Christians don't force things on people.
I just -prefer- not to date someone with tattoos, it's a personal preference. So is someone going to -force- me to go out with someone with tattoos because having that personal preference is wrong?
While I didn't post this thread to start a debate in theology let me say that I firmly believe you have misunderstood my position.
"I don't think he has either, but the mosaic law wasn't given to everyone, it was given to the Chosen People. And I think a lot of people try and force his specific will as expressed in the laws for Israel and for them, onto the whole of humanity."
Christians -are- God's people, are they not? They were grafted in, so not only Jews had the chance to be saved, but gentiles as well.
I am referring to a genuine distinction between the nation of Israel and the Bride of Christ. They are two different things, and one did not replace the other. God now has two chosen peoples, and currently the Nation of Israel is a prodigal. "Until the time of the Gentiles, is fulfilled" At which point God will resume working with Israel.
"How can it be that gentiles get salvation through accepting him but don't want to follow his laws?"
A strawman. And a confusion of just who's laws are whose.
The laws of Christ are not identical to the mosaic code. Their are 613 commands of moses. They are not even remotely the same.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_Mitzvot
Christ gave 36 Commands to us, his people. Most professing Christians can't even name 10 of em. The Laws of Christ supercede and are even harder to keep then the laws of Moses. But He gives us a new heart, and the Holy Spirit's power to obey them.
Please read acts 15. Then tell me just what it means for the gentile followers of Jesus.
"And no one "forced" anything on the "whole of humanity". The Lord knows who belongs to him. I don't force anything on anyone, and Christians don't force things on people."
I use hyperbole, just like Jesus used hyperbole when he talks of mountains being lifted up and thrown into the sea.
The whole of humanity here, refers to middle ages era, western Europe under the catholic church and the states under its control. There was a works based (as in works of the law) religion in operation, need I say Inquisition, when I say forcing, forced etc.
The works based roman catholic "christianity" is still the number one Christian religion by people.
Also, I never singled you, Ms Smith out, when I said "A lot of people".
"I just -prefer- not to date someone with tattoos, it's a personal preference. So is someone going to -force- me to go out with someone with tattoos because having that personal preference is wrong?"
You have liberty and choice of conscience, well at least in the US, for the moment. I am not issuing rebukes or condemnation.
I merely am pleading for reconsideration and or discussion for those who have made past mistakes, & asking for grace
where there appears to be some judgement and dismissal by believers against others, at potentially their own cost.
I for one, while begging for mercy on behalf of "the least of these" also known as the outcast, who is numbered with widows and orphans, in God's eyes, shall not force anyone do do anything.
This is a very lengthy thread, so I haven't read all the posts. I just thought to jump in anyway and share a few thoughts.
I just want to say, Revelations 19:16 says �And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.� I�m so glad Revelations made the canonical cut, and yes, gotta love that verse.
I had a similar conversation on the forums previously, and person 1, brought out a very good point that Lev 19:28 says �Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.� Ok. I thought that was good to know. Then person 2 brought another point which I thought was really interesting. Person 2 said: �I can't really use the .. verse.. in the Old Testament, to say that Tattoo's are wrong, because I believe those verses are about making scars on your body to appease dead spirits. In Ancient cultures near the Israelite's people believed that when a dead body was near them that evil spirits would come and harm them unless they took sharp objects and scarred themselves in order to appease the spirits. God did not want His chosen people to engage in superstition, and told them not to do it.�
And I�m not even going to go into talking about the first fruits of Revelations 14 who have the seal of God written in their foreheads, all hundred forty and four thousand of them. This may be physical or spiritual.
One thing I really want to say is that grace has nothing to do with tattoos and everything to do with the atonement.
Tattoos don't really bother me, though I would rather not date someone who has obvious tattoos! It's just a personal preference based on this opinion: I think that more than anything, the tattoos link their bearers to a completely different type of lifestyle...one that is not typically associated with Christianity. If a person got a tattoo(s) prior to being saved, though, I wouldn't expect him or her to have them surgically removed. Those tattoos could be a great, visible, conversation starter about that person's changed life.
I think I am in agreement with live. There are some cultures/religions in the world whose members cut and mark themselves to mourn/appease the dead. I believe that is what Lev. 19:28 speaks to. I think if it was truly a command against tatoos themselves, it would be a separate verse from cutting.
As far as the Law goes, I think we are to keep it where we know and understand it. I think Romans 2 speaks to this point but I'd like to hear someone else's take.
My personal opinion on tatoos is that some bother me and some don't. If someone is going to have a tatoo, classless ones that are of unflattering things like skulls or pirate flags or that are just obnoxiously large bother me. Small tatoos with some sort of sentimental value (something like a verse, a cross, a chinese character with some meaning, etc) don't bother me though.
O/T law, (one of the 613) Lev. 19:28, as was cited by the poster, is refering to marking for the dead, and in todays world would be like marking ourselves in a demonic or witchcraft type of way/ tatoo, as in a false idol. Not dating someone just because they have tatoo's, i suppose is up to the individual. If i wanted to date someone with false idol kinds of markings i would have never come to the Lord, and if the Lord had delivered me from that kind of lifestyle I would honor him by removing those types of markings. But to say that I would compare the heart of one, with there non-blasphemous markings is to say that i am judgemental with a nonrighteous judgement. It is a shame, but Jesus is right when He said to the pharisees, which i wont quote now, but Matt. 23:13-36 says it all, welcome to todays "christianity"because everywhere we go we'll find sanhedrin. May God bring His peace and joy to all and especially to those who worship Him in spirit and in truth. Amen
