I humbly need your participation too on this question,
Its a question that I asked to Letthismind2, though I kinder limited him cause I need he's answer based on the certain scripture that inspired the question.
With you on the other hand I need a general answer, you're welcomed however to quarte from the bible if you see nessesarily.
What is your openion on:
Weman initiating a relationship?
(not just friendship but a more personal relationship, that could somehow lead to commitment)
I think there is a decent biblical example in the story of Ruth and Boaz of a woman initiating a relationship, at least to a degree. The bible is pretty silent on the matter outside of cultural influences, there is no command that a man must always run out a grab a lady, or that woman has to sit around and wait for a man, only that the husband should be the "head" of the household(and I do believe that, maybe that should be a different topic). There are actually quite a few places where God pushes beyond society and culture, such as to allow women to be inheritors, female prophets/judges, etc, so I think those are clues that God does intend that women should be loosed from cultural "norms" that aren't necessarily natural or healthy or biblical. I actually welcome a woman initiating contact, as long as it's done in a christian/biblical way. I think it's a little one-sided that men are expected to see or assume or push every potential relationship, and honestly, I think it's a bit unhealthy and promotes some bad/arrogant character traits sometimes. If a woman came up to me and said "hi, what's your name?" or "hey, I'm interested in getting to know you" or "would you like to get some dinner?", I wouldn't consider that to be an unbiblical approach, but it does all depend on the manner in which it was done, and that goes for both sexes. All of it should be tempered with a christian character and humility/modesty.
I don't think anyone should just sit back and wait around for God to bless them. I don't think that "God helps those who help themselves", but I do think that God does give us resources and "talents" to use wisely and multiply, and I think that principle applies to relationships as well.
All that being said, I'm dating a woman now, and I did initiate that relationship, and it was extremely fulfilling/rewarding/relieving for her to return the interest. It was worth far more than every time I sat around and felt sorry for myself, and worth far more than every time I was ignored or rejected. Imagine what Ruth felt when Boaz responded to her efforts? Or what Boaz felt when Ruth expressed her interest in him? I think it works both ways for both genders, and I'm aware my views aren't socially "old fashioned", but I do think they're within biblical scope.
I think I'm taking the opposite side of the road as LTM. Yes, initiating does put you a position for rejection, but it also puts you in a position for success and confidence. I don't think that living in fear of rejection is a biblical way to live, and it's definitely not healthy.
I do think that LTM touches on something of importance, but I think that it's of cultural importance and mostly a result of the effects of sin on men and women's respective physical/mental conditions, and not necessarily a biblical principle. I do think that the bible describes women as "weaker" because of physical traits and more complex biology, although I don't think it was nearly as pronounced when we were originally created by God. In physical/mental terms, men and women were probably much more equal before the fall(still different though). God said that women would be "ruled by their husbands" AFTER sin, implying that Eve was NOT "ruled by her husband" BEFORE sin. We have degenerated physically since then(see the life spans from before the flood), and I think that has caused women to be "weaker" because of their more complex biological/reproductive systems, which basically requires that men take over as leaders and protectors(especially in more brutal times). BUT. I don't think that means woman are regulated into being silent and passive, especially in a safer civilized society. I think women are fully capable of success and initiative and courage(Esther), and there is no biblical reason to think otherwise. We all have a duty to God, it doesn't matter what our race or gender or handicap is. We're all to take the initiative when spreading God's word, we're all to be courageous when being persecuted for our faith, and we're all called to succeed in "running the race" for the heavenly crown, and those principles are supposed to spread thru our lives and our character and into every relationship and every role, whether you're a servant or a king/queen.
And just for the record, women can be very strong as well. The woman I'm dating now is a martial artist, and she's VERY strong, much stronger than a lot of guys. I'm speaking in sweeping generalizations, and I think it's fair if you look back through history. If we were living in tribal/feudal times, it would be very hard for women to succeed like they're able to now. I'm NOT saying it's impossible, and it's directly linked to how violent and oppressive men were/are, but it's a valid and logical observation.
Thank you so much for taking time & writting back to me. Your reply is heart felt with so much inside as reading through it.
I understand everything you said, you've highlighted things that took me to personal experiences that I didn't understand back then, oh I wish I had the information that I have now, would have done certain things differently.
Just to highlight one of them:
(One of life's lessons'' that I've learned is communicating & expressing how I feel, instead of holding back. Talking has been a great therapy for me that I sometimes come across strange to some people, even being misunderstood & judged. However i've never allowed that to get the best of me)
This one time I was bothered deeply in my spirit, had fallen in love with a total stranger. This guy i'd come across often when traveling to work few years ago. Was not aware that I have fallen in love, thought its just liking. Until this was getting hectic to a point of sleepless nights & thoughts of him in every working moment of my day. That's when I knew that, this was now a problem that I had to work of fixing.
Constant thoughts of him maybe I didn't mind, but sleepless nights was just something that I couldn't compromise with. I tried to figure out how to release this from my system, so I can be at peace. Didn't really want a relationship with him, all I knew was that untill I get this of my chest, I wasn't gonna be ok, since i've discovered how talking puts one at ease.
So I really understand where you're coming from, and I certainly relate how Boaz must have felt when told this. I still recall the expression on he's face when I told him, was so imotional, he almost cried
And I can still recall expression of dissapointment when I told him that I was not asking nor seeking a relationship with, telling him was only for my own good. He pleaded that we give it a try. I couldn't since that wasn't part of the my motive.
Yes I fully agree with you again when saying weman are weak though we also have our strength. That one is very true. God wouldn't have made us helpers if we were totally weak. On that same passage about Ruth & Boaz, I sense a lot of power & influence from Ruth. With a whole lot more weman to quote from the bible. Ester is one of them. She influenced to things to save the Jews. Delilah also influenced & convinced Samson to tell the truth where he's power & strength came from.
One othe thing I couldn't help but pick up about weman in their stength, is that
They're more poweful when taking their place in submission. All these weman were very calm in working on achieving their motives. More like they knew that eventually they'll receive what they intended to have, so the trick was to do their part in submission through strength.
About submission, just make sure to remember that it's only submission "as is fitting in the lord". Your first and really your only submission is to Christ. That's the foundation for strength and purpose in everything else. Submission in a marriage is secondary and shouldn't ever override the submission to Christ.
"The question is often asked, �Shall a wife have no will of her own?� The Bible plainly states that the husband is the head of the family. �Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands.� If this injunction ended here, we might say that the position of the wife is not an enviable one; it is a very hard and trying position in very many cases, and it would be better were there fewer marriages. Many husbands stop at the words, �Wives, submit yourselves,� but we will read the conclusion of the same injunction, which is. �As it is fit in the Lord.� God requires that the wife shall keep the fear and glory of God ever before her. Entire submission is to be made only to the Lord Jesus Christ, who has purchased her as His own child by the infinite price of His life. God has given her a conscience, which she cannot violate with impunity. Her individuality cannot be merged into that of her husband, for she is the purchase of Christ. It is a mistake to imagine that with blind devotion she is to do exactly as her husband says in all things, when she knows that in so doing, injury would be worked for her body and her spirit, which have been ransomed from the slavery of Satan. There is One who stands higher than the husband to the wife; it is her Redeemer, and her submission to her husband is to be rendered as God has directed��as it is fit in the Lord.�
I must admit that I can relate & agree with both of you guys in expressing your different views on this subject of a WOMAN INITIATING a relationship. I had a lot to take in & to understand from both parties,
Though with you I really must say, YOU'VE got me amazed on your last massage when dwelling in the depth of of how one should submit to Christ Jesus as a first husband. Before having this subject I couldn't think of other ways of submitting to Him dirrectly, except through one onother.
(I may qoate verses that may seem a little erelevent, hope it will all come together to the point i'm trying to express to you)
When saying that I only thought one can submit to God only through others, was looking at the following passages:
Ephesians 6:1-3 "Children obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. Honor your father & mother, which is the first commandment with promise......"
In my little mind that's a young persons way of submitting to God, through parents.
Verse 5, "Bondservants be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh,...."
Verse 8 "knowing that whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same from the Lord" I thougt & still think, this is a way of pleasing God through your master.
I really couldn't think of getting through him dirrectly in submission, only through someone else. You've unfolded this mentality & introduced a new lesson that I never would have learned except through this subject.
I think there's more to submission than what we've highlighted, in the near future i'm hoping will have a conversation about submission cause really its a topic/subject on its own.
Thank you so much dear for your coperation & participation on my question. Have learned so much from you.
One other passage that i've forgotten to mantion in thinking that we only submit to God through one onother, its Malachi 3:10 "Bring all the tithes into the storehouse..."
We're bringing to God through our leaders' spiritually.
I know all quated verses seem very erelevent, I hope that they bring forth my point in thinking we only get through Him in submission when serving one onother.
They're all good verses, I see the point your making, and we should follow all those principles. You've just got to remember that the greatest commandment is "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind". When it comes down to it, the only master we have is God. We are supposed to respect authority, and obey parents, and love our enemies, and follow the law of the land, but if someone tries to tell us to disobey what God has commanded, that's when we have to respectfully abandon ship.
"Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men."
"And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
"And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ."
"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it."
Little did I know this will come this far. Has been a long session (not complaining at all friend) filled with pleasentness, wisdom from God, understanding & revelations since one biblical verse led to onother verse, that continued the conversation from the asked question, to other questions that arised when more verses were coming forth.
Allow me please to appreciate the depth of wisdom noted that God has invested in you. God is working in & through you for He's very glory, honer & the benefits of those around you. May you eventually come to the complete product that only He sees & intends in you. You've been a blessing til now.
Bsck to the subject:
I understand what you're emphasizing. Submission to God should not only be limited to He's principles, we should rise higher if those outherised by God for us to submit to, are more of stumbling blocks & hinder God's intensions of having He's word preached. Taking from the current qoeted verses, This is where He draws the line, as He says "He didn't come in peace, but rather division" as in the same passage He carries on & say "father against a son, mother against a daughter..."
This is not in contrary with He's commandment, when saying "children obey your parents in the Lord" but rather (you should be careful when obeying, if what you coperate with from them is still inline with God, & if not you should stand up for salvation & your relationship with God).
I'm reminded of a revelation I had when writting to Letthismind2:
About man being careful to choose Godly wives, since we're meant to submit to you guys, (God somehow knew that guys being ordained leaders themslves, may find it a little harder to submit to Him) hense He brought us in your lives so you learn from what became our nature after the fall in Eden, (woman seeking after a man & taking orders/instrsctions from him) so you too guys can lay down your lives at He's feet so that when you have taken commandments from Him, directing them to us, both parties work together in submiting to God, whose even higher than He's principles, since one part should not coperate with the other if geven instructions that are not inline with God (though Jeses didn't say "Husband against a wife when saying that He's brought division")
It really has been a constractive conversation, hope it brings forth good fruits that will better serve our partners in our personal lives.
