Growing up, I was involved in a co-ed youth group. My best friends were a group of 3 guys and 3 girls who went out several times a week. Our Bible studies were mixed, our retreats were mixed (the rooms weren't), and only one event the whole year separated us by gender (the True Love Waits seminar).
Going to college and since, I've seen a lot of dividing young men from young women. Now that I'm in Seattle, there are next to know Christian churches with young people; but if there are, the church has different ministries for the young men and for the young women and none that bring them together.
So, I was curious, are all the churches across America falling into this wicked sin of segregation or just the churches in Seattle?
Now those are both fascinating directions. I've been primarily focusing on the notion of a target demographic of people who use this forum and not tweens through teens. Though, I would still say that through the church experience, even those groups should be taught how to have Christ like interactions with the opposite sex.
Partial separations? One could stretch Paul's command to married people and apply to the genders. Which command? The command to separate for an agreed upon and short period of time and only for the purpose of drawing closer to God.
Once again, temptation is not sin. Jesus was tempted. He didn't lust for things which Satan used to tempt Him, but nevertheless, Jesus buffeted Satan's assault not by denying Himself but by glorify the Father and by quoting the Scriptures.
However, God's words to Cain before he killed Abel are interesting, "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it." God does not say, flee youthful lusts (which is a fun one I hope to come back to in a bit). Instead God assured Cain that if he he did well then his sin would not master him. Instead, if Cain allowed temptation to get him down, God promised that it would overtake him. What happened next? Abel was murdered.
By our sin nature, we're horny in or youth. Being horny is not sin. In the marriage bed, God makes fruitful the urges. Removing the chance for Christian men and Christian women to talk in church does not remove horniness, nor does it stop them from meeting outside of church or better yet with non-Christians. For many Christian girls, getting knocked up wasn't the preacher's son it was the unsaved school boy who took interest in her in a setting where she didn't instantly feel shamed for noticing a boy. What good did the years of traditional upbringing bring her when brought face to face with the opportunity to act on temptation? If you said 9 months of a parasite, you're more cynical than I. (Sorry, bad joke. Children are a blessing from the Lord.)
In the same way, Jesus also said that the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. If it's the root of potential evil, we should all pray for poverty? What nonsense. For sure our treasure and reward is not in this life. However, denying ourselves a good thing is not the same as not being tempted by that thing. This has the same spiritual merit as a catholic monk who takes a vow of silence: the world is blessed not to hear his ignorance and his soul is still poor.
The comparison to a parent setting boundaries is good. Sinful parents will tell their children not to even look at the opposite sex. Godly parents however will set boundaries for their children and will chaperone to help their children appreciate these boundaries. It's not the prevention of evil that made the difference, it's the appreciation for the boundaries. In the same way, to the undisciplined, the Bible sounds like a lot of 'thou shalt not's; to the Christian, the Bible is a road map, personal letter, a set of instructions and boundaries.
However, a child going to a brothel is not at similar to a youth group leader or young adult leader with a mixed sex group of people. For one, my Christian sisters are not selling their bodies to me; they're studying God's word. For another, when diving into God's word in a corporate setting, what Christian female is going to be in an uncontrolable fit of lust? There are times I feel like I missed out on a lot of crazy times being brought up in a conservative denomination...maybe that was a fair analogy of some churches, though it does sound like it stretches reason more than a tad.
Let's get back to Paul's admonition to Timothy. Flee youthful lusts. (Compare it with Ecclesiastes where Solomon gives the advice to follow the impulses of our heart and the desires of our eyes, chapter 11 verse 9.) Start once again with the premise that temptation is not sin. Lust however is sin. Lust is strong sexual desire. Now if one misreads Scripture, you'll need to have plucked out your lustful eye. Do be literal when the Bible is and be figurative when it is; lacking discernment of the two, ask the Holy Spirit for help. Where to go with this is back to Paul's epistles to the other churches where he repeatedly tells us to crucify the deeds of the flesh. Your sin nature does not want holy interaction with those in your church; but your obedience to Christ must win out. Anyone who does not daily take up his cross is not fit to follow Jesus. His words, not mine. So, for all the seeming good it does to scare people away from the opposite sex, that is not teaching people to act with love toward others.
And it's our love one for another by which the world will know us as His disciples.
Take this all in the harsh light of churches that have proclaimed virtual isolation of the sexes. Churches where there are young men's ministries and young women's ministries but no young adults' ministry. Churches where the focus is more on drawing close to your own sex than in being the fellowship. Here again, my beef was with the gender schism, but do feel free to replace the gender examples with race, age, family status, etc.
Once again, to get to the stage of having a romantic relationship, our churches should have encouraged us to have healthy non-romantic ones. Back East, I never noticed this issue. In Seattle, church after alleged church has groups of perverts. It takes you moments to notice that there is a lot of tension at two groups of people pretending to be one fellowship.
Mark, the world teaches that you're only as strong a chain as your weakest link. The Bible teaches us that we are more than conquerors in Christ Jesus, and again it tells us we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. Instead what Paul tells us is that if you think someone is weak in their faith, bear with them in love and patience; don't correct them, for each person is accountable to his own master (the choices being God and sin). There is nothing Biblical about the notion of catering to the weakest member, Jesus never did. Paul never did. Peter was rebuked for doing it.
Once again, boy and girls hanging out and forming platonic relationships is not sin. Preventing boys and girls from forming platonic relationships in the Love of Jesus as brothers and sisters is wicked. Where sin has occurred, the church body must exercise discipline against the members who sinned and not against those who might possibly want to have also later sinned but haven;t yet. (Do you see how convoluted it sounds when it's spelled out?) If I have a litter of puppies and I watch one puppy urinate on the rug, does it make any sense to run all of the litter's nose in it? Much less when the urine is mine and I rub the litter's nose in it. Shear folly.
Right...back to the forum subject. Just for the record...I probably went a little farther then I should have in explaining my views, and I'm sorry. I should have kept it a little more on topic. I agree that separation of groups/sexes in church/youth groups really has no benefit at all. So we agree on that. I'm not having a problem with your view on separation, and like I said....I've never seen it in churches I've been to, so it's kind of surprising...what I'm having trouble with is seeing where "separation" of sexes is called a sin. I'm not saying it's great...but calling it sin is pretty strong, please show me where you see this. The example about the Jews and Gentiles wasn't about the same thing.
We're not supposed to correct our brothers or sisters that are falling? (Matt. 18:15-17) Just let them continue in their sin? I think we're supposed to always lift each other up. I'm kind of confused...with the verses you're bringing out, Paul was talking about non-salvation related issues, such as eating meat offered to idols...he says not to dispute over "doubtful" things in general(...that's kinda what we're doing right now, eh?). But Paul says "don't correct anyone"?? Paul, throughout his writings, is constantly correcting errors in the churches, individuals with open sin, personal problems, etc. In almost every letter he praises them for their good, and points out what they need to correct. So like I said...I'm confused...I know we have all power in Christ, but every christian is not on the same page. We're all at a different point in our walk with Jesus. Paul knew that, that's why he wrote the letters...to correct the churches, and put them on the right path. He also says not to throw stumbling blocks in the path of a fellow christian(Romans 14:13...brings us to the weakest link thing again, I always thought the world taught "survival of the fittest"?)
Oh...I just looked at your profile...we might have some doctrinal differences, which might be part of my confusion. I should have looked first. Do you believe in predestination? You don't need to correct errors if Christians that are already saved are incapable of falling, right? That would answer some of it. I should've noticed that...sorry. :dunce:
