What a wonderfully depressing notion... I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you.
I can't say I would appreciate the notion of having God say to us "you are charged with sharing the Gospel and bringing My Kingdom to Earth" only to throw up a "no vacancy" sign when we die. Frankly that sounds rather cruel to me. Forgive me, but I don't see a "Gospel" in the notion of nothing after death unless at some point down the road Jesus decides to bring you back. The word "gospel" is an old English translation of Greek's word meaning "good news." What in this can we call "good news," if we are accepting God's grace only to find ourselves dropped in the ground in the hopes that someday He'll pick us to rise again? I guess I'm toast since I was always one of the last ones picked for gym class teams.
All joking aside, please consider one of the thieves who hung on a cross next to Jesus. After repenting and asking why Jesus, who had done no wrong, should die in the same manner as he, Jesus assured him "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luke, 23: 43) I used the KJV since that seems to be generally a widely accepted translation. Jesus basically assured him that there was a place for him in the Kingdom as he repented, not tomorrow, not at the second coming, not on some nebulous day down the road; today, this instant. The guy dies now, the next moment he'll be with Jesus in paradise. If we want to pick at nits, we can argue that Jesus isn't saying "heaven" specifically, but he does say "you will be WITH ME in Paradise." Sounds to me like we go to the same place... If what you say is true, unless I'm misunderstanding you (in which case, please clarify so that we don't have another misunderstanding), then that was an empty promise and maybe even a lie. That would mean that Jesus made nothing but empty promises to most everyone he encountered, even the man he was dying next to. If we take Jesus' words at face value, either he was telling the truth and he was and is the son of God, or he was a dangerous madman. I'm not a fan of drawing absolutes like this, but there is not really an in-between to be considered here. He either was or he wasn't.
I don't see exclusivity when I read the Bible. I see a love story between God and mankind and a gift offered out of that unconditional love and sacrifice so that we can all live with God again as we were meant to from the days of the Garden of Eden from which we were banned. Praise be to God in the highest for never giving up on us!
Thing is about the thief on the cross is the punctuation was translated very wrongly. Considering the original Greek text never had punctuation. I've had this argument with many but that notion to think that Jesus himself says that would also make him contradict what he says in John 3:13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man"
If you mix the punctuation up with that section in Luke it reads Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise. That would be the lack of care that the translator for any edition of the Bible had taken. They didn't see the contradictions of the many scriptural verses that proves that we return to dust when we die. There is a hope for people who are truly following Christ but it is not until the Christ's return that any kind of resurrection will happen. It may sound depressing but it is the truth.
I'm not convinced that your punctuation argument holds up. Today is still today. Also remember that jesus had that conversation with the saducees who denied the resurrection. His argument was that God is the
God of Abraham Isaac and jacob. He is the God of the living not the dead. He then insisted they were quite wrong...as, I believe, are you.
But frankly whether right or wrong do you not understand that you are doing no one any good? Think of someone reading your statements who just found out they are terminally ill. I'm concerned that all you are doing is scaring people. If you want to believe that feel free but in a place like this where anyone could be reading this under any circumstances, it might be wiser to please keep it to yourself or at least be more discrete about what you say. But again if the Gospel is good news and your beliefs contain none then maybe they aren't of the Gospel.
My argument about the punctuation doesn't have to hold up it's based on what Jesus had said in his ministry to Nicodemus.
It's also based throughout the old testament and parts of the new but you'd have to read scripture to understand that.
As for the case of people who may be reading this and feeling offended. This is not meant to offend anyone it is meant to encourage and find people who are truly seeking the truth as you won't find it in many places. As I pointed out at the start of this thread.
There is hope for anyone who chooses to live a life that is obedient to what the gospel demands and that is a changed life. To those reading this who actually feel convicted of sin and want to change their life give me a shout out and I'd love to talk to you.
I never said the word "offended." I said the word scared. If you can't read my post correctly, how do you expect to read scripture? Your argument still offers no hope. You may think it does, but it doesn't. I've come across people paralyzed by fear because of these sorts of teachings. Many nonbelievers would rather take their chances by believing in nothing over what you are teaching and men like my pastor have to spend months of counseling to undo the damage caused by teachings like this for those who are afraid to live because of what they've been told about death and the "conviction of sin." There have been many who have been a bundle of terror on their death beds as a result of these teachings. One thing we must NEVER do is turn people away from Christ or worse yet scare them away from him. I am deeply concerned that this is exactly what you are going to do in this thread, sir. I will beg you once again to have compassion on those who might read this who might be so vulnerable to fear to stop this. It does not help. If you're right we will find out the same way my grandparents and everyone else does, but we'll have to wait a long time for you to gloat.
I'm guessing you're hung up on John 3:13 that states that only the Son of Man has been to heaven. That's the last time I go digging up your scripture references for you. Next time, please put in the effort yourself if you're going to continue this ridiculous debate. Yet, even in the discussion with Nicodemus he says that no one enters the kingdom of God and sees the Father except through the son. Jesus also says that the Son of Man must be lifted up so that all may have ETERNAL LIFE. How can dead be dead and still have life eternal? Plus, you didn't tell me how my last argument was flawed. Was there a comma out of place? Did Jesus have his fingers crossed when he argued with the saducees? I'm sorry, but your arguments still offer no hope to the terminally ill, those who have lost loved ones, and who have had scrapes with death themselves. It tries to destroy the hope gained by those who have had experienced with loved ones after their passing and those whose lives have been transformed by a near or after death experience and came back with memories that have changed their lives for the better. I'll also remind you that the desciples saw and recognized Moses and Elijah with Jesus prior to his trial, execution, and and resurrection. That would be tough if dead is dead as you so eloquently stated.
And you sound just like the rest of the world who proclaim to be Christians.
I don't care to argue this point it's for those who are actually seeking the scriptures to notice and those who have actually read it correctly to respond.
And you sound like someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. I'm sorry, but your arguments just don't hold up under scrutiny, but thanks for playing.
To anyone reading this argument: please don't fall for this. Never take anyone at their word, not even a pastor. Do not be fooled; a pastor is just as fallible as any human and don't have all of the right answers. When someone cites a scripture, look it up. Read it yourself, read the rest of the chapter and never accept things purely at face value. Pray over those scriptures and ask God to open the eyes of your understanding to their meaning and their significance to your life! Rely on the Holy Spirit. It's the Holy Spirit's job to show us the right answers, not our pastors, and not someone in these forums saying "I'm right, you're wrong."
Very few of us can go and get a theology degree, so there are some things that we have no choice but to take on faith, but one thing we learn in college is that not everything is totally cut and dried. Most things are debatable if you go deep enough into the topic, including the particulars of scripture and the cultures represented in its words since no one alive now was around when they were written. Therefore, since the most learned scholars do not have all the answers, no one else does either! I never claim to have all the answers, so I invite anyone reading my posts on this forum to investigate my citations. Whenever I talk to someone who is seeking or asking questions about God, one thing I make sure to tell them is that if they ever come across anyone who claims to have the answers: run. Their arrogance is a danger to everyone they meet, as well as themselves.
Media like this can be a marvelous place for us to share with one another, find ways to learn about other denominations, other cultures, and communicate with people across the world. However, there is also a grave danger. I'm not talking about getting catfished and people not being who they claim to be. This danger is much more sneaky and insidious. In this media, right and wrong can be blurred. Someone can lead us astray on a journey that is clearly and exclusively our own journey. In reading the arguments made in this forum and others, two points of view can appear to be equal. Someone can make unrealistic and outrageous claims and someone can go up against them and their arguments can look exactly the same and may only be limited by who gets in the last word.
Hey I 100% agree with what you say about not taking anybodies word for it. I've done my studying. I've read and reread in context what scripture says about death.
The Greeks and Egyptians made a mess of what scripture says about death and they managed to make it a big thing in all religion today. That when we die we have immortal souls that go straight to heaven. Nowhere in scripture does it say we have an immortal soul.
I don't want anybody to take my word for it. I'd love for people to find this out for themselves and send me a message if they've seen what I've seen. That's why I created this post in the first place. To reach people who have a similar understanding of scripture. One that is written in context and not picked out from random pieces of scripture because then you can make the bible say whatever you want it to say.
