Okay, brace yourselves: I have a theory that I would like to run by the mass of intellectuals on this site:
My thought today is that pride is the source of shame. Think of it: WHEN DO WE FEEL ASHAMED? When we do something that breaches our code of ethics. WHY DO WE FEEL ASHAMED? Because we, and others, expect better of ourselves. WHY DO WE EXPECT BETTER OF OURSELVES? Because even though we know that humans are inescapably flawed, we believe that we have ascended above the typical human. A.K.A. - Pride.
So when Adam and Eve felt ashamed in the Garden of Eden because they were naked, it was not because God commanded them to wear clothes and they disobeyed. No, it was because they believed that nudity was below them.
Likewise, when I lay stripped bare and naked before God in all the glory of my sinful self, feeling overwhelming shame for all the atrocities buried in my soul, it is only because I sincerely believe that I am above sin. Pride.
So is shame itself a form of sin? I believe that it is a symptom of the disease of pride. I also believe that shame and pride create a cycle of stagnation in the typical Christian's life. We feel pride, and when we fail, we feel shame that reinforces our belief that we ought to be better (pride).
I'm not saying that we should take great pleasure in sinning because it is implanted in our human nature. I'm saying that agknowledging that sin is, and always will be, the biggest influence in our decisions may be the first step into seeing ourselves as God sees us.
Yes, I would agree you are on to something hugh! I have always felt that shame is not opposite, but rather ; inverted pride. Adding insecurity to shame often produces pride.
I have much to share about Adam and Eve but must go for a bike ride before it gets dark. Be back later.
This kind of thinking bleeds into how we treat other people as well. The "pride of life" is one of the three classes of sin. I believe it was the first sin, even before Adam and Eve. I'd even say that pride is the root of all sin. The amount of things you can link back to pride is pretty scary, including fear:laugh:. Take self-hatred for example. I used to think I was so humble for seeing all the things I did wrong. I was so full of shame/self-hatred, just so I could stealthily put myself right back above everyone else that doesn't do those things. It's like a camouflaged mix of the Pharisee and the Publican. "Have mercy on me, I'm a horrible sinner...but thank you that I'm not like that guy over there that's so ignorant and mean and self-righteous". I don't think self-hatred counts as humility, unless when you see pride and sin and hypocrisy in your life...you CHANGE...then you've begun the battle against your sin/pride/ego. It makes it way easier to forgive yourself/others and to keep moving forward, instead of stagnating in self-hatred and shame. Not only that, but you realize that people can really change, and it makes you look at other people completely different. They're blind. They see everything through their pride, and you can't do anything to help them except to do what Jesus did. Be self-sacrificing. Maybe they can catch a glimpse of a greater One or a better Way.
:peace::peace:
:stop:Warning! The following theatrical scene is rated R for language(one F-word):stop:
It's really quite deep though, it's a little view of what the battle between yourself and your pride might look like, and it might be worth the assault on your sensibilities. Up to you.
�Think of it: WHEN DO WE FEEL ASHAMED? When we do something that breaches our code of ethics. WHY DO WE FEEL ASHAMED? Because we, and others, expect better of ourselves�� (Your words)
I disagree with part of your Logic here. You contend that we feel Ashamed because
�we and others expect better of ourselves.�
This �Code of Ethics� comes from God. It is Intrinsic in all of us Humans (well, most of us anyway). It is put there by God. The Shame that we feel is Our Soul mourning for our loss of Ethics�of our Sense of Right and Wrong.
We don�t feel shame for losing a race�we feel shame for not trying hard enough or if we win by cheating we may feel shame for cheating.
Adam and Eve were ashamed because they ate of The Tree of Knowledge and knew about the difference between Right and Wrong (before there was only Right) and KNEW that they did wrong and OFFENDED God.
They were Ashamed because they let God down�they Offended Him�they Disappointed God.
If you truly believe you are Above Sin then�yes that is Foolish Pride because that is not something to be Proud of.
No�Shame is not a form of sin, but wallowing in it is and thinking that your sins are too great for God to Forgive and that you do not Deserve Forgiveness Is A SIN! That is a sin of Pride!
Believing that you should be a better person is not pride�it is your Soul speaking to you. It is the Divine Spark of God in you trying to Ignite The Holy Spirit�s Fire in you.
Suppose a wealthy business owner of three companies who takes special care of his employees and customers must leave the country to manage a family matter. He calls three of his most trusted employees together ; Mr. Pride, Mr. Shame, and Mr. Spiritled and tells them: " I will be gone for some time, therefore I am putting each of you in charge of one company. You have worked for me for a long time; you know how I run things; do as I would do untill I get back. Here is number you can reach me at if you have any questions.
Mr.Pride boldly and courageously jumps right in. Seeing ways to make the company more profitable he cuts the employees wages, shortens their lunches and scrimps on materials. He looses some employees and customers but the company is more profitable. He is so proud of himself and cannot wait for the owners return.
Mr.Shame takes over his company, he doesn't do like he knows he should and things start to go wrong. He blames himself, the employees and the economy. The company is loosing money and on the verge of collapse. He feels so ashamed and dreads the day of the owners return.
Mr.Spiritled takes over his company trying to do excatly like the owner would do. He does encounter some difficulties but uses the number the owner gave him to call every friday even when things we're going well and builds a good relationship with the owner. The difficulties are handled just as the owner would. The employees and customers are happy. The business is doing well. Mr.Spiritled is confident that the owner is pleased and looks forward to a new personal relationship with him when he returns.
What do YOU think the owner will say to Mr.Pride? Mr.Shame? and Mr Spiritled?
Do you think Mr. Pride and Mr. Shame will get the same lecture?
"This 'Code of Ethics' comes from God. It is Intrinsic in all of us Humans (well, most of us anyway). It is put there by God. The Shame that we feel is Our Soul mourning for our loss of Ethics�of our Sense of Right and Wrong."
I get what you're saying, but I have to disagree with it. Our code of ethics is shaped by our world view. Even though God plants basic instincts to want to "be good" in every human created, our sense of morality is still a result of what we're taught by society. For example, I would feel shame for killing an enemy; however, in some small tribe in Africa that act could be a source of pride instead of shame and guilt.
Each individual decides upon their own morality standards based on their world view. What you have to ask is, "What does God expect of us?" Does God expect us to fit into our standards for ourselves or His own?
I honestly believe that God EXPECTS us to sin. Follow me here. God loves us and accepts us, flaws and all. He does not want us to try to change who we are; that's HIS responsibility, not ours. Our desire to rise above our faults is a product of pride. WE CANNOT TRANSCEND SIN. Only God can remove our desire to sin, and our pitiful attempts to remove it ourselves and meet our own code of ethics will ALWAYS fail. That's why we need God - if we could save ourselves, WE would be God.
I can explain this reasoning if someone would like to know, but it will be a pretty lengthy post... lol like this one! :glow:
Another thing I wanted to respond to:
"Adam and Eve were ashamed because they ate of The Tree of Knowledge and knew about the difference between Right and Wrong (before there was only Right) and KNEW that they did wrong and OFFENDED God. They were Ashamed because they let God down�they Offended Him�they Disappointed God."
In my reference to Adam and Eve, I was talking specifically about the shame they felt at being naked. Nudity is never condemed, so their shame wasn't about right and wrong. It says they realized they were naked, and they were ashamed. It wasn't about disappointing God, it was about disappointing themselves. They were naked before and after the fall, but it wasn't until after the fall that they felt ashamed for it.
Finally, I want to state that conviction is different from shame. Conviction is the belief that you have done something wrong. Shame is the pain that you experience from conviction. The Holy Spirit provides the conviction; we provide the shame. :winksmile:
Woe to him who gives drinks to his neighbors, pouring it from the wineskin till they are drunk, so he can gaze on their naked bodies. You will befilled with shame instead of glory..."
Ezekiel 16:36-37
"This is what the Sovereign LORD says; Because you.....exposed your nakedness in your promiscuity ......I will bring upon you.........my wrath and jealous anger."
Genesis 9:22-25
When Canaan was cursed for looking on his father (Noah) sleeping naked. Shem and Ham were blessed for not looking and covering him.
You play to play fast and loose with scripture.---:goofball:
The word used in Genesis 3:10 is NOT "ashamed" it is 'afraid' in the NIV, NASB, KJV and the AMP. (Strongs Concordance# 3372) it means fear, fright, afraid, reverence, dread.
"He does not want us to try to change who we are; that's HIS responsibility, not ours."
I hate to snipe/hijack you, but I kinda disagree with that, or at least how it appears. God gives us the power/conviction/hope to change, but He doesn't magically sweep in and make your sin disappear. Yet, He does tell us to repent and turn from our sinful ways, to "go and sin no more", and to follow Him. Only God has the power to forgive us and cleanse of sin, but it's our job to hate/fight it. I don't know exactly what you meant, and I don't know exactly how you believe about a free moral will, but there is something for us to do, and an attitude we have to have, because Jesus does say:
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Hey, you're totally right about the Genesis 3:10 thing. I should have looked it up before posting. Thanks! As for the scripture about nudity you provided, I feel like I need to investigate the context. I'll look them up and get back to you soon...
@DHTM:
I agree about our attitudes needing to be right, and I'm not saying that we should sit around and sin like crazy, waiting for God to intervene. Let me try to shed some light on my reasoning about God's responsibility to change us.
A lot of what I believe came from a revelation I had about the following passage of scripture:
"To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times, I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But He said to me, 'MY GRACE IS SUFFICIENT FOR YOU, for my power is made perfect in weakness.' Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me." -2 Corinthians 12:7-9(NIV)
Now this is truly poetic. In this passage, Paul talks about a "thorn" in his flesh. Most scholars believe that this "thorn" was some sort of temptation that Paul was continually facing. We don't know what this temptation was, but it appears that he keeps giving in to it. A sin he couldn't beat, if you will. He prays to God and begs him to take the temptation away. Nothing happens, and Paul gives in again. He prays to God and begs again. Nothing happens, and Paul gives in yet again. Paul cries out to God, begging Him to take the temptation away. This time, God speaks up. (WARNING: LITERARY INTERPRETATION AHEAD!) "Yo! Paulie! Hey, pal, you know what your problem is? You think you should be able to beat this sin. You think I'm testing your spiritual strength. You're wrong. I KNOW you can't beat it. You aren't strong enough. But Paulie-boy, I am! And MY strength is sufficient enough to cover you."
So Paul taps into God's infinate pool of strength and grace, and is finally able to conquer the temptation.
Why would God do this? Why give a disciple a problem that you KNOW they cannot handle? Doesn't God want His children to succeed and triumph over sin? No, God doesn't want us to beat our sin. WHY? Because if we could save ourselves, WE would be God.
This is such a simple concept, yet so many Christians struggle with it because we all want to fight for salvation. Think about it: As soon as we mess up at something, we think, "Oops! What can I do to avoid messing up next time?" Even our pastors will say that we need to change our heart when we sin. We need to look into our lives and figure out what WE need to change to stop sinning. But this is not necessarily what God wants us to do! He wants us to let Him change us. He wants us to trust him to fix us.
When I first studied this passage in college, I was struggling with a dilema. I had lied to someone I loved. I felt very strongly convicted to confess my lie to them, but to do so would put me in danger of ruining that relationship. As I fought with this dilema, I came to the conclusion that the relationship was more important to me than doing what I knew was right. I was telling God, "I'm sorry, but I can't confess my sin to them. I just can't." Then we studied that passage, and it was as if God was saying to me, "I know you can't do it. You're not strong enough, but I am. Let me give you the strength." So I did. I tapped into God's strength and trusted Him. I confessed to my friend and hoped for the best.
Now I don't pretend that my personal philosophies on life are perfect or even refined. I only say what I think and admit defeat when wrong. I'm still young and learning, and I am happy to hear criticism, so feel free to tackle my thoughts as you see fit. I keep an open mind and enjoy being challenged. I do, however, enjoy pushing the limits of comfort and traditional thinking. I hope that I haven't offended anyone by my posts so far, and if I did, please realize it was unintentional. Thank you all for responding honestly.
