I thought at first glance this was about relationships between men and women, but I figure now it's more to do with women speaking in church and/or preaching, Dennis?
The gifts of the holy spirit and the gospel ministry(many ways to minister) are different from the administration and government of the literal church body. Women do not need any endorsement or qualifications from a church body to use any gifts of/from the holy spirit they possess. Women can act upon any gift that they have, and they can have them ALL, and I believe they can be ordained to express those gifts to others(including teaching). BUT. A woman has never been a man, or a father, or a husband, or a priest, or an elder, or been "ordained" to any of those roles, in my humble opinion. I believe it is against God's design. The qualifications for an elder require previous experience in governing/ruling a household as a father. I know that may be all a mess now, and even men don't follow it or circumstances seem to override it or there's a lack of qualified men, but I believe that is what the bible prescribes, and failure of one to follow the bible should not give us license to abandon it. If God is going to side-step his own prescription, I would hope he would make it very clear and not leave us guessing.
When you come to understand what Christ did in redeeming us, and how His redemptive work transcend genders, then you will see that Christ will use anyone and even "anything" without waiting for endorsement of few "elders" to do His work on earth here.
Gal 3:28 King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) - "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
The idea that women had never been men, uncles, fathers, or elders is true just as they will never be! And that is not a criterion that adjudicate against them. In the world we live in, is it only men who rule over their own house? What about homes where the father is deceased and the wife being the Matriarch had rule the home to profit? Hence that verse will never be a plausible condition that forbade women.
The most tangible thing to note is Gal 3:28
1Tim 3 :4-7 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil (NJKV).
Cross Reference the following verse to 1 Tim 3:4-7
1 Cor 12:13 New Living Translation (�2007) Some of us are Jews, some are Gentiles, some are slaves, and some are free. But we have all been baptized into one body by one Spirit, and we all share the same Spirit.
Romans 6:3 - King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) - Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Galatians 3:27 - King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) - For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
In the light of all these, before men, all these conditions may hold, but the Condition that hold before God is the New Birth, that obliterate gender, race, creeds and opinion.
"The idea that women had never been men, uncles, fathers, or elders is true just as they will never be! And that is not a criterion that adjudicate against them. In the world we live in, is it only men who rule over their own house? What about homes where the father is deceased and the wife being the Matriarch had rule the home to profit? Hence that verse will never be a plausible condition that forbade women."
:bouncy:The bible speaks about elder women and widows, and what they should be doing to serve God. Disciples, prophetesses, deaconesses, judges, yes. Examples of Christ, yes. Vessels filled with the holy spirit, yes. But those are all different from the administration and leadership of the church body, and the church body is supposed to be like a family. The society we have built has destroyed, supplanted, and rendered the family order obsolete, but I don't think that is how it's supposed to be, and the speed with which our society is falling apart is a pretty good testament to that fact. Women have the most important role on the planet, and just because the "world" has destroyed every noble thing about it and have turned it into slavery and shame, does not mean that God's plan isn't buried in there somewhere. You'd think that the push to turn women into men would be insulting to every woman out there. "You're not good enough unless you do man things!!"
"Eve had been perfectly happy by her husband's side in her Eden home; but, like restless modern Eves, she was flattered with the hope of entering a higher sphere than that which God had assigned her. In attempting to rise above her original position, she fell far below it. A similar result will be reached by all who are unwilling to take up cheerfully their life duties in accordance with God's plan.
The question is often asked, "Shall a wife have no will of her own?" The Bible plainly states that the husband is the head of the family. "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands." If this injunction ended here, we might say that the position of the wife is not an enviable one; it is a very hard and trying position in very many cases, and it would be better were there fewer marriages. Many husbands stop at the words, "Wives, submit yourselves," but we will read the conclusion of the same injunction, which is. "As it is fit in the Lord."
God requires that the wife shall keep the fear and glory of God ever before her. Entire submission is to be made only to the Lord Jesus Christ, who has purchased her as His own child by the infinite price of His life. God has given her a conscience, which she cannot violate with impunity. Her individuality cannot be merged into that of her husband, for she is the purchase of Christ. It is a mistake to imagine that with blind devotion she is to do exactly as her husband says in all things, when she knows that in so doing, injury would be worked for her body and her spirit, which have been ransomed from the slavery of Satan. There is One who stands higher than the husband to the wife; it is her Redeemer, and her submission to her husband is to be rendered as God has directed--"as it is fit in the Lord."
When husbands require the complete subjection of their wives, declaring that women have no voice or will in the family, but must render entire submission, they place their wives in a position contrary to the Scripture. In interpreting the Scripture in this way, they do violence to the design of the marriage institution. This interpretation is made simply that they may exercise arbitrary rule, which is not their prerogative."
:bouncy:I think we can take those concepts and directly apply them to a woman's role in the church as well, but it still does not make a woman a man, and it does not make their roles the same. Men and women are different.
"For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God."
Gal 3:28 King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) - "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
Again in all sincerity, what Christ came to do and successfully acheived is more than GENDER. Its more than RULES. Its more than PRINCIPLES. Its purchasing life and removing all status that limits man and woman from serving God.
Any rule we hand out in churches that hammers and hampers anyone successfully standing in the defense of the Gospel to work for God is actually a doctrine of limitation and ideologies. Such is never from God. Such must be fled from.
God redeemed man and woman and called them to serve HIM! This is totally spiritual and can never in a thousand years be fathomable to the understanding in the flesh!
Hebrews 12:28 - King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) - "Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear". And the "WE" in that verse is the man born again, irrespective of the GENDER!
Even if it's from God himself, and even if it's God's design? I'm not saying that women can't do the work of spreading the gospel, I'm speaking about the administration of the church, it's a whole different animal. Everyone is called to spread God's word, even children. Everyone is not called to be an elder or church leader. Every man isn't even called. It's a specific position, calling for specific requirements, for a specific purpose.
