This is a site dedicated to Christians, yet after searching various profiles I see that a LOT of people on this site socially drink, if not more. Even forty years ago Christians of all faiths were against drinking -at all-. What has changed? Has drinking become less sinful? I'm inclined to say no, because God's Word hasn't changed. Many of you will probably respond with a few very typical responses. Allow me sometime to discuss these.
1. Jesus drank. (They are talking about the marriage at Cana of Galilee.) For starters no where in that passage did Jesus actually drink anything. Secondly, He made something called New Wine, which is grape juice, un-fermented , and not alcoholic. Argue if you will, but the point of the matter was that Jesus didn't drink it there. Secondly, the last supper, Jesus supped from the cup. This was again, grape juice, non-fermented wine. How do I know this? Well Jesus is and was God's Word incarnate, and he couldn't do anything sinful. In proverbs it speaks about wine as a mocker and strong drink as raging, and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. Did Jesus, err in this point? That would make him a sinner.
2. Bible says not to get drunk, not that you can't drink socially. While the Bible does say not to get drunk, it also says you shouldn't even look on it when it's fermented. Do you socially drink with a blindfold on? The Bible is not saying you can drink as long as you don't look at it, it is however giving a warning against even being in the same place where they have it. Some of you may visit bars with friends, and while they drink, you don't because you're the driver. God knows that temptation is right around the corner, He's trying to protect you.
3. Lastly, some will bring up the point where Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for they stomach's sake. Now, while I am not perfectly clear on this issue, using this as means to justify drinking socially is moot. Your stomach is probably not upset, and we have better medicine these days then back then.
In conclusion, why drink at all? It's not necessary, it's probably a lot cheaper, it impairs your judgment, and of course above all else God is not pleased with drinking. So Christians who believe the Bible, it's time to get back to what the Bible says, and not how socially acceptable it may be to drink.
Let me start by saying that I do not drink, but I do not drink because it is a personal choice, not because I think it is a sin. Let me address your comments in the order you posted them.
Even forty years ago Christians of all faiths were against drinking -at all-. What has changed? Has drinking become less sinful? I'm inclined to say no, because God's Word hasn't changed.
I am afraid you are seriously misinformed. Many denominations do now and have always used real wine for the sacrament. Catholic Priests have been making and drinking wine since before any of the other denominations existed.
Many of you will probably respond with a few very typical responses. Allow me sometime to discuss these.
1. Jesus drank. (They are talking about the marriage at Cana of Galilee.) For starters no where in that passage did Jesus actually drink anything. Secondly, He made something called New Wine, which is grape juice, un-fermented , and not alcoholic.
Acts 2:13, Others mocking said, they are full of NEW WINE. v15 For these are not drunk as you suppose.... So, we learn that even New Wine caused drunkenness. There is also the parable of the wine skins that bears this out. But the one accurate statement is that it never said Jesus drank it.
Secondly, the last supper, Jesus supped from the cup. This was again, grape juice, non-fermented wine. How do I know this? Well Jesus is and was God's Word incarnate, and he couldn't do anything sinful. In proverbs it speaks about wine as a mocker and strong drink as raging, and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. Did Jesus, err in this point? That would make him a sinner.
This proverb is warning against the lifestyle of drinking all the time. Context, context, context. There are more accurate scriptures to prove this point.
2. Bible says not to get drunk, not that you can't drink socially. While the Bible does say not to get drunk, it also says you shouldn't even look on it when it's fermented.
Can you show me this scripture? Maybe it is my memory, or my translation, but I can't remember this verse.
3. Lastly, some will bring up the point where Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for they stomach's sake. Now, while I am not perfectly clear on this issue, using this as means to justify drinking socially is moot. Your stomach is probably not upset, and we have better medicine these days then back then.
I agree with this, except that science shows that the anti-oxidants in wine are beneficial in small amounts.
In conclusion, why drink at all? It's not necessary, it's probably a lot cheaper, it impairs your judgment, and of course above all else God is not pleased with drinking. So Christians who believe the Bible, it's time to get back to what the Bible says, and not how socially acceptable it may be to drink.
I think it is time we quit trying to make the Bible prove what we want, and start reading it for what it really says.
Now, with all that said, let me help you a little here. As a Christian, we are being watched at all times. People are just waiting for us to slip or fail. Why would we ever give them a reason to use us as an excuse to stay in the world?
So you don't have a drinking problem, but what about everyone that sees you drink? Do you have any way of knowing that? You could be leading another astray without even realizing it. Now THAT the Bible does warn us against.
I appreciate your concise and timely reply. Here are a few things I may of overlooked or mis-stated.
"I am afraid you are seriously misinformed. Many denominations do now and have always used real wine for the sacrament. Catholic Priests have been making and drinking wine since before any of the other denominations existed."
I do not lump together Catholics with Christians. While I believe that some Catholics are professing Christians, it's a general misnomer. They do preach a different gospel, and I wasn't including them in my discussion. I should of clarified that there was a lot less drinking going on amongst laymen of the Church. If people socially drank it was hidden, in fear of being exposed. Bars even shut down when certain preachers came to town, for weeks of ministry.
"Acts 2:13, Others mocking said, they are full of NEW WINE. v15 For these are not drunk as you suppose.... So, we learn that even New Wine caused drunkenness. There is also the parable of the wine skins that bears this out. But the one accurate statement is that it never said Jesus drank it."
You quoted a passage that does not even deal with the marriage at Cana, however, I did make a mistake here. I used the term New Wine incorrectly. What Jesus made at the marriage was different from what they had been drunk on. Now as I've studied I found that even grape juice, non-fermented can cause a person to be drunk if they intake an enormous amount. While I can't say that is what these people did, it certainly was not what Jesus made. And that reasoning comes from a context point of view. As stated that Jesus is sinless, and if he violated scripture, the Word which he was, then He couldn't of been our perfect spotless sacrifice.
"Can you show me this scripture? Maybe it is my memory, or my translation, but I can't remember this verse."
Certainly can. (Prov 23:31) Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. (That's the King James by the way.) That chapter also contains some more very good warning. This is the process of fermentation. When it's fermented don't even look at it, it's keeping you safe.
29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
"I agree with this, except that science shows that the anti-oxidants in wine are beneficial in small amounts."
There are a lot of things that may be beneficial in small amounts. Though that doesn't mean that God's Word should be watered down so we can have an excuse to drink because medical science says so. Whose Word are we reading anyway?
I hope this does clear up the confusion. Drinking is linked with pain, sorrow, woe, misery, vile affection, the adulterous woman, fornication, uncleanness, curses, and death. Why would anyone want to dabble in something that has such a profound and devastating affect in human history?
I am enjoying our conversation. I have heard this view all my life from my denomination, but believe it to be indefensible. Let me address your answers.
I do not lump together Catholics with Christians. While I believe that some Catholics are professing Christians, it's a general misnomer. They do preach a different gospel, and I wasn't including them in my discussion. I should of clarified that there was a lot less drinking going on amongst laymen of the Church. If people socially drank it was hidden, in fear of being exposed. Bars even shut down when certain preachers came to town, for weeks of ministry.
This was very true of the Baptist denomination, but few others shared their views. I know, I am Baptist.
Now as I've studied I found that even grape juice, non-fermented can cause a person to be drunk if they intake an enormous amount.
Jesus said not to put new wine into old wine skins because they would burst. Now that is an accurate description of the fermentation process.
Why would you make large quantities of grape juice? It will either spoil, or ferment very quickly, within hours. They fermented grapes to preserve them, not to get drunk. In fact grapes stay fresh longer than grape juice.
While I can't say that is what these people did, it certainly was not what Jesus made. And that reasoning comes from a context point of view. As stated that Jesus is sinless, and if he violated scripture, the Word which he was, then He couldn't of been our perfect spotless sacrifice.
I do not agree with drinking being a sin, in fact I think it is twisting the scriptures to claim that it is. Let me explain why I feel this way.
First is the fact that the Bible tells us to not get drunk. If drinking is a sin, then why warn against getting drunk? We are already in transgression, it doesn't get any worse. If we transgress in one, it is the same as being in transgression of all. Why do you think the Bible doesn't address single mothers, because it is already a sin to have sex outside of marriage. Sin is sin, but drinking is not one of them.
Next, Jesus was around many people who were drinking wine, He had every opportunity to address this and didn't.
Last, If it is a sin, why would His mother ask Him to make more? I just don't see Mary as a temptress.
"Can you show me this scripture? Maybe it is my memory, or my translation, but I can't remember this verse."
Certainly can. (Prov 23:31) Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. (That's the King James by the way.) That chapter also contains some more very good warning. This is the process of fermentation. When it's fermented don't even look at it, it's keeping you safe.
Now I know why I couldn't remember it, it is out of context, and has nothing to do with fermentation. 31 Do not look on the wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it swirls around smoothly. New King James. This is obviously talking about staring drunkenly into the hypnotic reflection inside the cup. I believe if you look at the notations in your KJV, you will find that they are worded exactly as the NKJV.
29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
These are the verses that go before the one I just talked about, and prove my point about being taken out of context. All this advice was given to v.30, they that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
"I agree with this, except that science shows that the anti-oxidants in wine are beneficial in small amounts."
There are a lot of things that may be beneficial in small amounts. Though that doesn't mean that God's Word should be watered down so we can have an excuse to drink because medical science says so. Whose Word are we reading anyway?
You were the one that said we should be using more modern medicines instead of wine, as the Bible directs. I was just following suit. If you didn't want to discuss science, you shouldn't have tried to use it to prove your point.
I hope this does clear up the confusion. Drinking is linked with pain, sorrow, woe, misery, vile affection, the adulterous woman, fornication, uncleanness, curses, and death. Why would anyone want to dabble in something that has such a profound and devastating affect in human history?
Now that is a statement that I will not argue with. I don't believe anyone should drink, because of these reasons and many more, but I do not believe that it is a sin by any stretch of the imagination. I do not think smoking is a sin either, but it is definitely not something I would advise anyone to do.
If we want to be an effective witness to non believers, we have to stop this calling everything a sin.
I am as well enjoying this conversation, but I think I may have found some of the reasons we do not agree on this. Firstly, let me say that I hold the same convictions, and do not drink or smoke not only from what I believe is clear Biblical principle, but because of several other factors as well.
One of the largest parts where disagree may be Bible Version. From my time in Bible College, and my own personal studies on the subject, I have found that the King James Bible would be the correct translation from the Textus Receptus for the English speaking people. I do not read Greek, nor Hebrew. I've never learned how to, and since I'm fluent in English, I stick to an English translation. However, that doesn't mean I follow it blindly. I did research, and I've compared not only this version against others, but against itself. That being said, the New King James is the one version I have the hardest time with. And mostly because it changes things in a very subtle way. The other popular versions of the Bible, such as the NIV, NASB, ESV, and others are blatant in their removal of verses, and passages, as well as large changes of doctrine.
One of the biggest rules that I go by is this. "Things that are different are not the same." It's an easy concept to grasp of course, but often overlooked. So if one translation says one thing, and the other says something else, the two cannot coincide. For instance, when I can read from the King James about the fermenting process which I've studied to show that the color changes, as does the liquids moving aright, that would indicate it's been fermented, changed. Though from the New King James it does indicate that's it's a reflective pool for the drunken. These are not the same, and we cannot try and make them appear to be the same. Since God is not the author of confusion, it's only natural to conclude that one must be wrong.
While I don't expect to change your mind in any of this, I do hope you will see that because of different versions, we can come to different conclusions on the same subject. My personal reference will always be the King James. Now if you feel from your own studies that the NKJV is the inerrent, inspired, Word of the Living God, by all means cling to that, we're just not going to see eye to eye on some things.
I do see some of your points as things I will further look into. It is an interesting way to look at it, and I thank you for that information. However, back to the issue of drinking. Perhaps a good question to ask is not what's wrong with it, but what is right with it? And since we both agree that we shouldn't drink, I don't think we have to answer that. The same with smoking. I don't see anything right with smoking, even if I'm not able to point out what's wrong about it. (Though that would be easy enough.)
As for your last point. To be an effective witness, we must preach the Word of God, the whole Word of God. The Bible makes no qualms about calling sin out. Just look at the Ten commandments as a general moral compass. Every person on the planet has broken these commandments. And if a person does not see their sin, they will not see their need for a Savior. While we must speak with love, it must be truth in love. Love without truth is liberalism, and truth without love is legalism. We need the correct balance of both.
I just wanted to add this in to the conversation. I Read only the 1611 KJV also. I agree with what both of you are saying. To me its not a sin unless you take it too far, as in getting drunk every time you drink.
I for one will not drink again because I was becoming an alcoholic when I was drinking socially. We as God's servants should look at ourselves in the mirror and ask are we setting ourselves apart from the world when we drink? Or are we just blending in?
The Bible tells us to abstain from the apperance of evil. So I personally think we shouldn't drink because we never know who is watching us. We could be trying to lead our best friend to God, and that person will look at the things we do, and may come to the conclusion that we are no different from them. So I just want to warn every one that we should watch ourselves and make sure we are setting a good Godly example to this world.
I feel the same way about the smoking too. Its not a sin to smoke but its still wrong to do so. I have had the hardest struggle with giving it up, and I won't lie but the habit is still hard for me. I use to love to smoke but I gave it up because one of my unsaved co-workers asked me why I smoke when I'm so devoted to God. It made me realize that I was not showing them through my daily habits and actions that I'm no different then they are.
I wasn't able to lead this person to the Lord because of that. So I try to set a good example to every one around me from now on. You also have to think about all the children that are learning from us, and they only know whats right and wrong from what we teach them. They will aslo learn from our actions in our daily lives too, because they are always watching wanting to learn.
Sorry if I rambled about this subject. It was not my intention to do so.
I have really enjoyed this discussion as well. Dave, my last statement was about scaring away converts, that is why I said new believers. We often, in my opinion, put too much on them at once. I have found that if we give the Holy Spirit time, He will convict them when the time is right, and do it without running them off.
I quoted from the NKJV for clarity, after looking in the KJV and finding footnotes about the meaning of the wording. I then checked in the NKJV, and finding the exact wording as was used in the footnotes, I used it for the clarity of the scriptures. Not so much for you, but for others reading along.
I completly agree with that Leon, we do have a tendancy to put to much on new believers. I my self have done that and realized that I was in the wrong for doing so. I help out how I can and let God work on them to convict them in His timing not mine.
I too see that we as Christians, me included, to force a lot of things on those just born into the Kingdom of God. It is true that after time we want them to immediately be on the same plane, and grow faster than we did. It is a hard balance, but with God's grace we can be lights to those and examples to follow.
That being said, while it may not give an express command in scripture against drinking, smoking, or doing things of that nature, there are principles in the Bible that apply to it. One of the best ones as you said Jacob was to abstain from all appearance of evil. We have to guard ourselves from doing things that while we may not see as sin, would be mimicking what the world does. The world drinks, and of course they don't do it to glorify God. And I personally can't see any way that drinking or smoking could be used to glorify God, and that after all is our purpose. Just my two cents there.
As for the scripture footnotes, Leon. I put no stock in footnotes. For instance, I have an Old Schofield King James Bible. His footnotes in there agree with the other versions removing verses like Acts 8:37. The footnotes also like to point out that Behemoth may refer to an elephant or a hippo, when it's clearly not one of those animals. So I do not put any stock in footnotes, but read the words of God, for the actual words are inspired. Proverbs 30:5-6 "Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." For clarification on matters that seem unclear I would compare scripture with scripture, line upon line, precept upon precept. I can't go to another version that changes the words and hope to find the same meaning. Just so we're clear, I'm not trying to take offense with any of my brother's and sisters in Christ, but to stand fast as it says Ephesians, lest I be carried away with every wind of doctrine.
Let me present one more thing, and then I am through being the voice of opposition, especially since we really agree that no one should drink.
You said,
So if one translation says one thing, and the other says something else, the two cannot coincide. For instance, when I can read from the King James about the fermenting process which I've studied to show that the color changes, as does the liquids moving aright, that would indicate it's been fermented, changed.
You are correct that your interpretation occurs in the fermentation process, but if I am reading this right, they are speaking of seeing these things in the cup. Fermentation cannot happen in a cup. It requires the absence of light and a slight pressure helps speed it along. That was the reason for wine skins, the stretching held pressure. Today, it is done with giant pressure cookers.
I still believe the context of this is a warning against a lifestyle of drunkenness. It just seems so clear when read from a few verses before this one. All my study Bibles have annotations that agree with this context. I had an instructor in Bible College that tried to teach the same thing you are saying, but could never prove it either. However, he heads the college now, so.... draw your own conclusions.
Hey Leon. I agree with everything you have said. Well said. I am not a star scholoar and I am not good at writing so this is mostly all going to be in one big ol' paragraph:) lol. I think that the option "social drink" was the worst choice ever to put but it was the only option I had other then lying and saying I don't drink. When I clicked this option it wasn't because I only drink when there are people around because it makes me look cool or it is the "thing to do". I can have a beer in a resturant to celebrate a friends bday, I can have a beer with dad for no reason, I have have a beer after a long day of work. I don't drink it because I want to get drunk. I drink it because I like the taste, just like I like the taste of grape juice, apple juice...ect. I understand that alcohol has an effect on the body but if you are able to have a drink and not continue and get drunk I don't see the problem with it. If you know that you cannot stop after the first one, then yes I suggest not starting. I do think it is wrong to get drunk. That said I have gotten drunk and I haven't been drunk since. It was stupid and foolish, but I learnt from my mistake. Leon, I totally agree with your statement, "If we want to be an effective witness to non believers, we have to stop this calling everything a sin." I am a witness to this. I have struggled alot on how best to witness to others. I am still learning but I have come to realize that nonbelievers do not take well to believers who feel the need to let them know everytime they do something you consider a sin. I belive we should live by example. If people hear me not swearing or see that I'm not getting drunk....if they just see that I'm different, that I do not conform to what the world thinks is cool then maybe someday they will ask my why I live my life like this and will have an oportunity to tell them about God. But they won't want to be around me if all I do is point out their short comings. Because we all know that as Christians we have many shortcomings too. Jesus was around sinners a lot. He used those oportunities to witness to them. He didn't sit there and point out every time they sinned. Anyways not sure if any of this was relevent or not. I'm tired so I apologize if thise doesn't make sence!! Take care all!
