Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 2 Feb, 2012 11:28 PM
Thanks to a question about divorce and remarriage posted on another thread, I felt the need to address those on this site who may be suffering from the weight of guilt and condemnation heaped on them because of their reasons for divorce.
I wrote the following article, "The Stone Thrower", based on actual instances that happened on this site. If you are one of those who have been ostracized by others for having an "Unbiblical Divorce," please take the time to read. May it minister to your heart.
The Stone Thrower
I want to touch on a subject today that has long been regarded in Christendom as taboo . . . and that is . . . DIVORCE. Mention that word around some Christians and their hackles suddenly go up on the back of their neck. They pull out their proverbial stones ready to put to death anyone who they think has been un-biblically divorced. And to my shame, I was one of them�a stone thrower.
We all know the story of the woman caught in adultery in John 8:3-11. The scribes and Pharisees (the religious self-righteous) had arrested this woman and dragged her before Jesus. One has to wonder how these Pharisees caught such a woman "in the very act" of adultery. How convenient for them. It's amazing the depths of depravity the self-righteous will sink to in order to defend their religious arguments. Did they have the paparazzi spy on her to get some juicy pictures for the whole world to see?
At any rate, they dragged this poor woman in front of Jesus and proudly proclaimed, "Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?" (John 8:5)
Zowie!! These men can quote the Word of God . . . at least the parts that suit their fancy.
I like our Lord's reaction. "But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear" (John 8:6b).
Don't you just love it when someone ignores you . . . especially when you're trying to win an argument? But the self-righteous rarely lie down without a fight, and those religious Pharisees were determined to prove that they had the "truth." So they continued pestering Jesus, knowing that the Law of Moses was on their side. It's not a good idea to pester Jesus, especially when it comes to "pointing a finger" at someone.
"So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, 'He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.' And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. Then those who heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning from the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst" (John 8:7-9).
This introductory story of the woman caught in adultery has a purpose: I wanted you to have a glimpse of the mentality of a "stone thrower." They are usually self-righteous, ready to condemn, and can quote the Word of God. Ouch . . . I just described me.
I had a clear cut answer for the reasons one might give to justify divorce which I thought was quite Biblical. And in my mind, there was only one reason . . . "But I say to you, that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except for sexual immorality, causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery" (Matthew 5:32). There you have it�plain and simple. Who could argue with such a statement? It is the Word of God! I thought I had the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth . . . yet the truth is . . . I was ignorant of the ways of God. "For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment" (James 2:13).
And it was in my ignorance to God's ways that I threw stones at the divorced ladies on a Christian dating site some time ago. As a widower, I was on this site looking for a prospective wife. I was so appalled at the amount of women who were divorced on this site whose reasons for separating from their husbands did not match my view of scripture. In order to protect myself from these "contaminated souls," I purposely wrote something in my profile for those that I would consider as wife material: "You may be single, widowed, or divorced (must be for Biblical reasons only)."
When I would communicate with these divorced ladies, I would immediately ask them to provide details on the reason for their divorce. If they could not give me an answer of infidelity as the reason for their divorce, then I considered them unmarriageable. Yet God has a way of grabbing His child's attention when that child is in error.
One of the ladies on this dating site told me her story of divorce after I demanded it. Her husband was deep in bondage to pornography and had no interest whatsoever in repentance. The man had not physically hopped into bed with another woman, and so in my self-righteousness, I condemned the poor wife for wanting to opt out on the marriage. And the "stones" that I threw created fresh wounds in her heart while she recounted those painful memories of her husband's infidelity as he lusted after porn. According to Jesus' own words, her husband WAS GUILTY of adultery: "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5:28). I ignored that scripture and concentrated only on Matthew 5:32. She lashed out at me, saying that she was glad Jesus did not condemn her even if I did. I have to admit, I was shaken by her story which moved me to tears.
Then there was another lady whom I demanded to give an account for her divorce. I threw "stones" at her as well when she could not give me a reason of infidelity for her separation. In bitter anger, she struck back at me, stating how her husband had broken her nose and physically abused her. I ignored the scripture which reads, "But God has called us to peace" (1 Corinthians 7:15b) and concentrated again on Matthew 5:32. However, her story bothered me very much just like the other woman's.
I began to seek God earnestly. These were only two of the many ladies who shared with me their heartbreaking stories of divorce. There were so many reasons given for divorce and none of them fell under sexual immorality (fornication) as I saw it. I sincerely asked the Lord to open my eyes. Was there any scriptural evidence to support these women's choices to opt out of a marriage other than infidelity? Yes, there was.
God led me to Matthew 19:3-12. The Pharisees were looking for a reason to trap Jesus in His words. Their previous scheme had not worked with the woman caught in adultery. However, if they could just get Jesus to say something contradictory to the Law of Moses, then they could brand Him as a heretic. So they asked Jesus this question, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?" (Matthew 19:3b)
Jesus' answer was, and still is, God's original intention for marriage: "Have you not read . . . the two shall become one flesh? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate" (Matthew 19:5b-6).
The Pharisees did not like His answer. For Jesus had taken them right back to Genesis before there ever was a Moses or a Law of Moses so that they could hear what GOD SAYS about marriage. Yet the stiff-necked Pharisees persisted with another question: "Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?" (Matthew 19:7)
Jesus responds, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so" (Matthew 19:8).
The self-righteous Pharisees were using the Law of Moses as an excuse to bail out on marriages for any flippant reason. And because of this, the Lord had some very strong words for them. "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery" (Matthew 19:9).
I can just hear the stone throwers shouting, "See, I told you . . . it's right there in the word . . . 'sexual immorality!'"
Wait a minute. Like Paul Harvey, let's hear "the rest of the story" before jumping to any conclusions. After verse 9 comes verse 10. Even Jesus' disciples, which would include us, were amazed at the words of Jesus. "His disciples said to Him, 'If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry'" (Matthew 19:10). Yeah, I can see their point. If sexual immorality (fornication) is the only reason for divorce, then perhaps we are better off not getting married.
But look at Jesus' response to his own disciples in verse 11. It stands to reason that if the disciples' statement was true, then Jesus would have said something to affirm it as such. He does not!
"But He said to them, 'All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given'" (Matthew 19:11).
What saying? The saying in verse 9 of course. NOT ALL can accept the saying that fornication is the ONLY reason for divorce.
Now notice that Jesus goes on to explain what He meant with the following verse:
"For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother's womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it" (Matthew 19:12).
What did Jesus mean by this? He tells us that three different men all became eunuchs for different reasons. One was born a eunuch, another was made a eunuch by men, and still another made himself that way for the kingdom of heaven. They all became eunuchs for different reasons, but who is to say which eunuch is "God approved"? God accepted them all. That's the point!
Likewise, there are many reasons someone might seek a divorce: physical and verbal abuse from a spouse . . . being married to an unbeliever who makes life a literal hell . . . marital unfaithfulness . . . the stress of being married to an alcoholic for 23 years . . . or living with a pornographer who refuses to repent. Which one of these reasons for divorce is "God approved"? That's the point Jesus was making. Just as the eunuchs were acceptable to God regardless of how they became a eunuch, so also is a woman acceptable to God who seeks to be free from an abusive husband, even if infidelity is not involved. You and I cannot see in the heart of that abused person . . . but God can. For God has called them to peace.
And the church has done more harm counselling emotionally and physically battered women to stay in a relationship citing Matthew 5:32 "except for sexual immorality" as the only just cause for divorce. Women have actually committed suicide and murder under the stress of remaining in an abusive situation because their legalistic church counseled them to do so.
You may have heard of the case in the U.S. where a lady killed her husband (a pastor) who had been abusing her for years. God had called her to peace . . . but she never knew it, and one day she snapped. The evidence of abuse was so overwhelming that the courts found this woman not guilty of murder by reason of insanity.
I certainly do not want to imply that people should take their marriage so lightly as to divorce for every whim and fancy. I would not condone that, and neither does the Word of God. Every marriage will have its share of problems which can be worked out with God's help by two committed individuals. Yet there are some women, especially those suffering physical and mental abuse, who have reached the tipping point of no return; and the only thing they can do to preserve their sanity is to get out of that marriage. And ultimately, it is to the Lord they answer to, not you or me. He has called them to peace.
After God opened my eyes to the truth of scripture, I contacted those ladies on the dating site who I had thrown "stones" at and apologized profusely. I was truly grieved that I had been so self-righteous and blind, wounding those precious sisters for whom Christ died.
Now back to the story that I began with. The "stone throwers" had already dropped their rocks and left the scene with a guilty conscience, leaving Jesus alone with the adulterous woman.
"He said to her, 'Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?'"
"She said, 'No one, Lord.'"
"And Jesus said to her, 'Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more'" (John 8:10b-11).
HALLELUJAH�MERCY TRIUMPHS OVER JUDGMENT!!!
Blessings in Christ Jesus,
Paul Janz
(All Scripture quotations are taken from the Holy Bible, New King James Version.)
"The Stone Thrower" Copyright � 2010 by Paul Janz.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 25 Nov, 2013 07:11 PM
Singer, you wrote: "I know you're not married you admitted before in an earlier post that you may not can marry"
*****
You are correct, I am not married. You are incorrect in stating that I said I cannot marry. I never said that. I most like said somthing like you do not know the circumstances of my divorce and you do not know if I can or cannot remarry.
Several times on the thread you jumped to conclusions about me. I have chosen not to discuss the circumstances of my divorce as it is not necessary for the general readership to know. Others may choose to be on this website that are not seeking marriage; however, I personally would not be on a dating site if I was not interested in marriage....that's just me.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 25 Nov, 2013 07:30 PM
Singer, I am well aware of the teaching of 'falling away' and losing eternal salvation. I grew up under that teaching. After MUCH study and prayer, my eyes were opened to the truth about being sealed until the day of redemption.
If God is able to save a sinner like me, He can keep His promise of eternal life.
I know longer a life of fear that I might sin and lose my salvation. I lived that for MANY years and yet even when I was not living according to the Spirit, I still knew that Holy Spirit was prompting me. And as I look back on those years I strayed, I can plainly see how having the Holy Spirit in me kept me from deeper sins.
I am much happier living a life desiring to please my Heavenly Father, doing those things I should than I ever was living in fear of damnation. I could never figure out what was good enough, having to work in fear of losing the free gift God gave me when as I child I called upon His name for salvation....and did it over and over again as I grew up.
There is a difference in conviction when doing something against the will of God than being shamed into praying because I might have done something wrong.
I look at the life of King David...and how God used him despite the great sins he committed after he was selected for king.
The church I attend now is much more involved in disciplining converts and helping those babes in Christ mature without condemnation, realizing that God works at different paces with individuals. My church is straightforward in identifying sin; however, they are welcoming to those who are struggling. How else will they learn to grow if they are kept from the teaching and preaching?
I go back to the OP...anyone can nitpick individual interpretations of the verses, the overall point is DON'T just blanket condemn those who are divorced and those who seek remarriage. Yes, MANY churches and Christians still condemn those who have suffered through any type of divorce, even if they do not seek remarriage. Just having the 'd' in their marital status precludes many from being included in activities or ministries...without even trying to figure out what the circumstances were.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 25 Nov, 2013 07:45 PM
IWA/BobBobbins wrote: "This is a show. It's how her game is played. Notice, what I said, "Time to make yourself appear righteous by posting a bunch of off-topic Scripture again? ". Then, please notice what she did, she posted a bunch of off-topic Scripture."
******
This is no show. It is me posting Scripture in reference to the statements made by you and/or Singer. They are passages I have posted before in response to the same questions only grouped or broken apart for emphasis. Singer has asked about law and grace and loss of salvation...and I will post the verses again and again as necessary.
As for as appearing righteous...I have never claimed that or implied that by posting Scripture. I am a sinner saved by grace...no better than any other person. We have had this dialog on other threads on the value of posting Scripture instead of men's interpretation and dissertations as other choose to do. I have yet to understand how posting Scripture can evoke such reactions as those I have observed from you.
In fact, many of the verses I post I have been given as reminder as how a Christian should respond...so they are a reminder to myself and other professing Christians on how to have a Biblical discussion with other Christians and with non-believers. Any conviction is on the part of the Holy Spirit...they are God's Words not mine when I post Scripture.
If I insert my explanations, you rant at me for teaching men. If I don't add my thoughts, you rant at me for posting Scripture. If I respond to your statements/questions, you rant at me. If i don't respond, you rant at me. So it doesn't really matter what I do, I have concluded you will rant at me. Since I am not accountable to you in any way, it is irrelevant to me what you choose to rant at me for.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 25 Nov, 2013 07:56 PM
IWA wrote: "On Jun 5, 2012, you introduced yourself to me (a complete stranger to you) by calling me a "legalist". When forced to prove your claim that I am a legalist, you supplied a non-Biblical explanation of legalist. "
***First of all I introduced myself to the thread on that date...you have now confirmed you are the previously banned BobBobbins as IWA was not on the thread at that time. �As for a non-Biblical explanation, I provided the definition I used in referring to you and Singer on the way you were presenting your views. �I don't believe the term "legalist" is in the Bible so any description would fundamentally be non-Biblical. �Whether you agree with my definition or description or impression of you is not relevant.
I made my assessment of your posts based on over 80 posts made on the thread before I even read and responded as my first post was on page 9. �
*****
On other threads you interacted me in recent months representing yourself as IWA, never alluding to your other entity on this site of which you were banned. Did you ever say you were BobBobbins? No. When Jude started pointing out that you were BobBobbins on other threads, you all but denied it fundamentally calling her a liar. I had my suspicions after weeks of posting, but I didn't say one way or another. You openly revealed yourself with the post cited above.
So yes, whatever credibility you may have had with me as IWA, has now gone to ZERO.
And Singer has confirmed in his recent post that the term 'legalist' is not in the Bible and he posted his non-Biblical interpretation of the term 'legalist', posting a variety of Scripture that supports his view.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 25 Nov, 2013 08:07 PM
2 Timothy 3:1��This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.�
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,�
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,�
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;�
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.�
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,�
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.�
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.�
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
�10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,�
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.�
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.�
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.�
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;�
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:�
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 25 Nov, 2013 09:07 PM
1 Corinthians 4:1�Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.�
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.�
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.�
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.�
7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.
9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.�
10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.�
11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;�
12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:�
13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.�
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.�
16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.�
17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
18 Now some are puffed up, as though I would not come to you.�
19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.�
20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.�
21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 25 Nov, 2013 09:29 PM
So, lets briefly recap.
"Teach said, "So BobBobbins/IWA or whoever you are, you have ZERO credibility as you have been caught in lies in your identity. <--- CAUGHT IN LIES (PLURAL) ABOUT YOUR IDENTITY
Teach continue to maintain that this was FACT.
Teach said, "You were caught because on other posts you have denied your identity. " <-- ON OTHER POSTS (PLURAL) HE DENIED IT
Teach went on to boldly assert, "The evidence of BobBobbins/IWalkAlone misrepresenting himself has already been posted, several times. <---- SEVERAL TIMES
She maintained, " You can search Jude's postings where she has called him out on it and he denied it." <--- HE DENIED IT
She states emphatically,
"The truth has been presented, if you doubt it you can research it further. "
HOWEVER, NOTICE HOW SHE CHANGES HER TUNE NOW!
Teach now says,"On other threads you interacted me in recent months representing yourself as IWA, never alluding to your other entity on this site of which you were banned. Did you ever say you were BobBobbins? No."
So, I interacted with her and I never personally sent her a memo to inform her that I had a different username at one time. Despite the fact, that my profile details are the same, my writing style the same, other members having no trouble identifying me, etc. However, Teach wasn't personally notified.
Teach now says, "When Jude started pointing out that you were BobBobbins on other threads, you all but denied it fundamentally calling her a liar. "
Notice, what does she say now? " You all BUT denied it". So, first she says "I lied about, denied it several times, misrepresented myself, etc." but now she says, "I all BUT denied it" Huh, interesting isn't it?
By the way, we are all still waiting for a shred of proof that any of that ever even happened.
Notice, rather than simply recanting and apologizing for her FLAGRANT FALSE witness against me, she continues to try to paint me as the one who has been deceptive. This is how a "gracious Christian" behaves.
Let me sum up the 750 plus posts on this thread. The OP is simply wrong. He was in the beginning and he remains so now. However, he is too prideful to just admit that he has erred, thank a couple of men who cared enough to point it out to him, gain some brothers, be thankful for a little God ordained humility and grow in knowledge of the truth. So, he has shamefully wasted everyone's time by playing childish games.
Teach, for her part, cannot accept that she right out of the gate falsely charged two men with being "legalists" She cannot accept that she doesn't even know what a "legalist" actually is. She cannot accept that she simply backed the wrong horse in this entire debate by supporting Paul and his errors. She cannot accept that she does not know the Scripture to the degree that she believes she does. She, like Paul, is also simply to prideful to acknowledge her error and grow in her own understanding. She is not teachable. So, she too has shamefully wasted everyone's time by playing childish games.
Both of them have gone to great lengths to impugn my character (and other people's character) because they themselves are not knowledgeable in the Scriptures or able to rightly divide the Word of Truth. They are unable to hammer out the issues honestly or humbly. They are both incapable of developing Scriptural arguments to support what they claim is true. As such, they take the very low road of trying to undermine the character and credibility of their opposition.
In any congregation that follows the Scripture, these two would be excommunicated and sent out from the body for their lack of repentance and false teaching. Yet, here they can operate with impunity and are free to continue leading others astray. Something is seriously wrong with that picture.
John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Teach's message to me__________
***** Did Moses really give the law? No, God gave the law through Moses. Moses didn't any of it up. The laws regarding divorce were given through Moses...why because of the hardness of man's heart, that would be sin of man.
======================================
Matthew 19
7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Also notice in verse 9 that Messiah Yahushua said that He will not honor when you do in fact He said unless fornication/adultery was committed He wouldn't honor it but would count it as adultery...................
Here it is in his own words and you can't dispute this..........
