Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 2 Feb, 2012 11:28 PM
Thanks to a question about divorce and remarriage posted on another thread, I felt the need to address those on this site who may be suffering from the weight of guilt and condemnation heaped on them because of their reasons for divorce.
I wrote the following article, "The Stone Thrower", based on actual instances that happened on this site. If you are one of those who have been ostracized by others for having an "Unbiblical Divorce," please take the time to read. May it minister to your heart.
The Stone Thrower
I want to touch on a subject today that has long been regarded in Christendom as taboo . . . and that is . . . DIVORCE. Mention that word around some Christians and their hackles suddenly go up on the back of their neck. They pull out their proverbial stones ready to put to death anyone who they think has been un-biblically divorced. And to my shame, I was one of them�a stone thrower.
We all know the story of the woman caught in adultery in John 8:3-11. The scribes and Pharisees (the religious self-righteous) had arrested this woman and dragged her before Jesus. One has to wonder how these Pharisees caught such a woman "in the very act" of adultery. How convenient for them. It's amazing the depths of depravity the self-righteous will sink to in order to defend their religious arguments. Did they have the paparazzi spy on her to get some juicy pictures for the whole world to see?
At any rate, they dragged this poor woman in front of Jesus and proudly proclaimed, "Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?" (John 8:5)
Zowie!! These men can quote the Word of God . . . at least the parts that suit their fancy.
I like our Lord's reaction. "But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear" (John 8:6b).
Don't you just love it when someone ignores you . . . especially when you're trying to win an argument? But the self-righteous rarely lie down without a fight, and those religious Pharisees were determined to prove that they had the "truth." So they continued pestering Jesus, knowing that the Law of Moses was on their side. It's not a good idea to pester Jesus, especially when it comes to "pointing a finger" at someone.
"So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, 'He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.' And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. Then those who heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning from the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst" (John 8:7-9).
This introductory story of the woman caught in adultery has a purpose: I wanted you to have a glimpse of the mentality of a "stone thrower." They are usually self-righteous, ready to condemn, and can quote the Word of God. Ouch . . . I just described me.
I had a clear cut answer for the reasons one might give to justify divorce which I thought was quite Biblical. And in my mind, there was only one reason . . . "But I say to you, that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except for sexual immorality, causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery" (Matthew 5:32). There you have it�plain and simple. Who could argue with such a statement? It is the Word of God! I thought I had the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth . . . yet the truth is . . . I was ignorant of the ways of God. "For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment" (James 2:13).
And it was in my ignorance to God's ways that I threw stones at the divorced ladies on a Christian dating site some time ago. As a widower, I was on this site looking for a prospective wife. I was so appalled at the amount of women who were divorced on this site whose reasons for separating from their husbands did not match my view of scripture. In order to protect myself from these "contaminated souls," I purposely wrote something in my profile for those that I would consider as wife material: "You may be single, widowed, or divorced (must be for Biblical reasons only)."
When I would communicate with these divorced ladies, I would immediately ask them to provide details on the reason for their divorce. If they could not give me an answer of infidelity as the reason for their divorce, then I considered them unmarriageable. Yet God has a way of grabbing His child's attention when that child is in error.
One of the ladies on this dating site told me her story of divorce after I demanded it. Her husband was deep in bondage to pornography and had no interest whatsoever in repentance. The man had not physically hopped into bed with another woman, and so in my self-righteousness, I condemned the poor wife for wanting to opt out on the marriage. And the "stones" that I threw created fresh wounds in her heart while she recounted those painful memories of her husband's infidelity as he lusted after porn. According to Jesus' own words, her husband WAS GUILTY of adultery: "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5:28). I ignored that scripture and concentrated only on Matthew 5:32. She lashed out at me, saying that she was glad Jesus did not condemn her even if I did. I have to admit, I was shaken by her story which moved me to tears.
Then there was another lady whom I demanded to give an account for her divorce. I threw "stones" at her as well when she could not give me a reason of infidelity for her separation. In bitter anger, she struck back at me, stating how her husband had broken her nose and physically abused her. I ignored the scripture which reads, "But God has called us to peace" (1 Corinthians 7:15b) and concentrated again on Matthew 5:32. However, her story bothered me very much just like the other woman's.
I began to seek God earnestly. These were only two of the many ladies who shared with me their heartbreaking stories of divorce. There were so many reasons given for divorce and none of them fell under sexual immorality (fornication) as I saw it. I sincerely asked the Lord to open my eyes. Was there any scriptural evidence to support these women's choices to opt out of a marriage other than infidelity? Yes, there was.
God led me to Matthew 19:3-12. The Pharisees were looking for a reason to trap Jesus in His words. Their previous scheme had not worked with the woman caught in adultery. However, if they could just get Jesus to say something contradictory to the Law of Moses, then they could brand Him as a heretic. So they asked Jesus this question, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?" (Matthew 19:3b)
Jesus' answer was, and still is, God's original intention for marriage: "Have you not read . . . the two shall become one flesh? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate" (Matthew 19:5b-6).
The Pharisees did not like His answer. For Jesus had taken them right back to Genesis before there ever was a Moses or a Law of Moses so that they could hear what GOD SAYS about marriage. Yet the stiff-necked Pharisees persisted with another question: "Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?" (Matthew 19:7)
Jesus responds, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so" (Matthew 19:8).
The self-righteous Pharisees were using the Law of Moses as an excuse to bail out on marriages for any flippant reason. And because of this, the Lord had some very strong words for them. "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery" (Matthew 19:9).
I can just hear the stone throwers shouting, "See, I told you . . . it's right there in the word . . . 'sexual immorality!'"
Wait a minute. Like Paul Harvey, let's hear "the rest of the story" before jumping to any conclusions. After verse 9 comes verse 10. Even Jesus' disciples, which would include us, were amazed at the words of Jesus. "His disciples said to Him, 'If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry'" (Matthew 19:10). Yeah, I can see their point. If sexual immorality (fornication) is the only reason for divorce, then perhaps we are better off not getting married.
But look at Jesus' response to his own disciples in verse 11. It stands to reason that if the disciples' statement was true, then Jesus would have said something to affirm it as such. He does not!
"But He said to them, 'All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given'" (Matthew 19:11).
What saying? The saying in verse 9 of course. NOT ALL can accept the saying that fornication is the ONLY reason for divorce.
Now notice that Jesus goes on to explain what He meant with the following verse:
"For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother's womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it" (Matthew 19:12).
What did Jesus mean by this? He tells us that three different men all became eunuchs for different reasons. One was born a eunuch, another was made a eunuch by men, and still another made himself that way for the kingdom of heaven. They all became eunuchs for different reasons, but who is to say which eunuch is "God approved"? God accepted them all. That's the point!
Likewise, there are many reasons someone might seek a divorce: physical and verbal abuse from a spouse . . . being married to an unbeliever who makes life a literal hell . . . marital unfaithfulness . . . the stress of being married to an alcoholic for 23 years . . . or living with a pornographer who refuses to repent. Which one of these reasons for divorce is "God approved"? That's the point Jesus was making. Just as the eunuchs were acceptable to God regardless of how they became a eunuch, so also is a woman acceptable to God who seeks to be free from an abusive husband, even if infidelity is not involved. You and I cannot see in the heart of that abused person . . . but God can. For God has called them to peace.
And the church has done more harm counselling emotionally and physically battered women to stay in a relationship citing Matthew 5:32 "except for sexual immorality" as the only just cause for divorce. Women have actually committed suicide and murder under the stress of remaining in an abusive situation because their legalistic church counseled them to do so.
You may have heard of the case in the U.S. where a lady killed her husband (a pastor) who had been abusing her for years. God had called her to peace . . . but she never knew it, and one day she snapped. The evidence of abuse was so overwhelming that the courts found this woman not guilty of murder by reason of insanity.
I certainly do not want to imply that people should take their marriage so lightly as to divorce for every whim and fancy. I would not condone that, and neither does the Word of God. Every marriage will have its share of problems which can be worked out with God's help by two committed individuals. Yet there are some women, especially those suffering physical and mental abuse, who have reached the tipping point of no return; and the only thing they can do to preserve their sanity is to get out of that marriage. And ultimately, it is to the Lord they answer to, not you or me. He has called them to peace.
After God opened my eyes to the truth of scripture, I contacted those ladies on the dating site who I had thrown "stones" at and apologized profusely. I was truly grieved that I had been so self-righteous and blind, wounding those precious sisters for whom Christ died.
Now back to the story that I began with. The "stone throwers" had already dropped their rocks and left the scene with a guilty conscience, leaving Jesus alone with the adulterous woman.
"He said to her, 'Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?'"
"She said, 'No one, Lord.'"
"And Jesus said to her, 'Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more'" (John 8:10b-11).
HALLELUJAH�MERCY TRIUMPHS OVER JUDGMENT!!!
Blessings in Christ Jesus,
Paul Janz
(All Scripture quotations are taken from the Holy Bible, New King James Version.)
"The Stone Thrower" Copyright � 2010 by Paul Janz.
"Scripture is Truth...human interpretation of Scripture is not equivalent to the Truth.
If someone posts a verse from the Bible, they have cited the Truth. How one interprets it can make it into something other than the truth.
How we respond to others that we agree or disagree with shows the Autry of the spirit in us. As Christians we should strive to display the fruits of the Holy Spirit even to those who are not in alignment with your interpretation.
Yelling, screaming, ranting, raving, never achieves the goal of persuading someone that you are right. Christians should try to live as Romans 12 describes...and strive to love peaceably with all."
"The argument now is over the speck instead of the overarching issue of the OP...we do not have to completely dissect every word of every verse to understand the truth.
Is divorce allowed? yes.
Is remarriage allowed? Yes, if the divorce is Biblical.
We shouldn't automatically dismiss pr treat someone badly because they were divorced, which is often the case in many churches and by many individuals...no matter the cause of the divorce.
We should be slow to judge and careful with our words and action towards others. When we condemn others we are really condemning ourselves...we are all guilty of some sin, big or small...so we are in reality guilty of them all.
Thankfully God is a forgiving and merciful God, standing ready to forgive us.
"So BobBobbins/IWA or whoever you are, you have ZERO credibility as you have been caught in lies in your identity which makes one question most everything you write other than pure Scripture....and I would look every verse up that you cite for accuracy.
The discussion is over the treatment of people who have been married and their marriage ended in divorce.
Even in your responses Bob/IWA you contradict yourself stating divorce is forbidden based on God hating divorce and then state that Jesus said one could divorce for Biblical reasons. Yes, God hates divorce because divorce is caused by sin. There are Biblical grounds for divorce. No, divorce is not commanded any more than marriage is commanded.
Since we are all guilty of sin, big or small...and lying is a sin, too...we are considered guilty of them all.
We should be careful in how we judge others or condemn for any sin, that is the point of this thread. By jumping to conclusions about people, we often make judgments about them before we have all the facts. One of the points of the stone throwing example Christ gave has to do as much with those who were so quick to judge someone caught in obvious sin that they ignored their own sins."
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 23 Nov, 2013 10:30 PM
Paul and Teach --
Notice that Paul's "evidence" shows me admitting who I am -- not denying it. This was my own public admission. Far from denying it or hiding it, I admit to it myself.
So, again I ask both of you to defend your statements.
Proven to be a fraud? Really? When was this proven? Lied about my true identity? Really? when did I do this? caught in lies about my identity? Really? Huh...... I missed have missed this. Who asked me for my identity? I don't recall seeing anyone ask me. Nor, do I recall confirming or denying anything concerning my identity.
Go dig up the quotes and when you cannot produce them, I will anticipate your full retraction and public apology because I know that both of you wish to be "honest and respectable", right?
You are both guilty of bearing false witness among other things.
PAUL, Your repeated insults violate the forum policy
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 23 Nov, 2013 10:30 PM
Teach, well said we are not to be mean or rude to those divorced it is very painful I know. Yet we are to tell them the truth in love. We are to stand on the scriptures that Messiah said concerning it. The truth never hurts anyone. Never has! However lies and deceptions hurt and destroy people lives. The devil is crafty and will try and condemn Yahweh does show mercy when there is repentance.................. Yet he never gives mercy at the expense of truth he gives it to go along with truth.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 23 Nov, 2013 10:33 PM
Singer4u says: "I also request that you show myself and every other viewer on this forum where IWA lied about his identity"
IWalkAlone says: "Proven to be a fraud? Really? When was this proven?"
The evidence: The man who calls himself IWalkAlone wrote to teach_ib and said: "On Jun 5, 2012, you introduced yourself to me (a complete stranger to you) by calling me a "legalist".
TEACH_IB REVEALS THE TRUTH: "First of all I introduced myself to the thread on that date...you have now confirmed you are the previously banned BobBobbins as IWA was not on the thread at that time."
Thank you Gods Jude and teach_ib for exposing the real identity of the man who calls himself, IWalkAlone. So we have the banned BobBobbins returning under a different name. What an absolute fraud you are IWalkAlone/BobBobbins. You think by hiding behind the picture of some bearded man, that somehow you would not be found out. Well, you have been found out�.
GODSJUDE INSIGHT: "See what I mean Paul...IWA is actually the Bob Bobbins that posted earlier in your Thread...He got banned a ways back...and true to his nature...he returns under another screen "name" to continue his Hypocritical behavior...its just what he does here."
The man who calls himself IWalkAlone wrote to teach_ib and said: "On Jun 5, 2012, you introduced yourself to me (a complete stranger to you) by calling me a "legalist". When forced to prove your claim that I am a legalist, you supplied a non-Biblical explanation of legalist. "
TEACH_IB REVEALS THE TRUTH: "First of all I introduced myself to the thread on that date...you have now confirmed you are the previously banned BobBobbins as IWA was not on the thread at that time. �As for a non-Biblical explanation, I provided the definition I used in referring to you and Singer on the way you were presenting your views. �I don't believe the term "legalist" is in the Bible so any description would fundamentally be non-Biblical. �Whether you agree with my definition or description or impression of you is not relevant."
The banned BobBobbins, who now calls himself IWalkAlone, accuses Paul with this statement: "Here, he is promoting another devilish idea that a woman should instruct a man."
Paul's response: devilish idea? Really? Have you not read� "Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, was judging Israel at that time. And she would sit under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the mountains of Ephraim. And the children of Israel came up to her for judgement" (Judges 4::4-5). Here is a woman, chosen by God, instructing men, and you, IWalkAlone/BobBobbins, say it's a "devilish idea".
Well did Jesus call you Pharisees for who you really are�hypocrites. For you feign to be a God-fearing man to the reader while at the same time mocking God's idea of choosing a woman (Deborah) to instruct men, calling it a "devilish idea". You ignore the Word of God in Acts 21:9, Joel 2:28-29, and Acts 2:17-18 where God says "Your daughters will prophesy�. and on My maidservants I will pour out my Spirit in those days and they shall prophesy", and instead you concentrate on one single verse, "And I do not suffer a woman to teach" (1Timothy 2:12). Hypocrite!!! You blind guide. You ignore the weightier evidence in scripture that God uses women to instruct men today while you make up your own doctrine.
In regards to my article, IWalkAlone/BobBobbins, you have ignored and mocked Jesus' very own words in Matthew 19:10-12, and concentrated on verse 9 alone. You hypocrite. The same Jesus who spoke verse 9 also spoke verse 10, 11 and 12.
"But He said to them, 'All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given'" (Matthew 19:11).
What saying was Jesus speaking of? The saying in verse 9 of course. NOT ALL can accept the saying that fornication is the ONLY reason for divorce. Your issue, IWalkAlone/BobBobbins, is not with me but with the Word of God. And just as the Pharisees hated Jesus because He did not fit into their man-made doctrines, so you do the same.
One thing is for certain, IWalkAlone/BobBobbins, you do not speak for God. The very scripture you quoted now becomes your condemnation: "To the law and to the testimony: if they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" (Isaiah 8:20).
For those readers who are not aware of what IWalkAlone posted here under the name BobBobbins, let me refresh your memory:
BobBobbins says, "Now please be sure to issue your standard verbose response to confuse all the readers.".. the only confusion the readers have here is in your hypocrisy.
BobBobbins says, "Also, don't forget your standard "thank you .. yada yada yada..".post to Teach_iib."..as you wish. But the post on "works" is for the benefit of all the readers. The Word of God speaks for itself.
Paul says, "BobBobbin, you could not be MORE WRONG! Your LIES are outrageous, Teach ib and I are one in spirit. "
This statement is so true! You see Bob, that's the beauty of being one in spirit with God's Spirit of mercy and grace. We are able to love one another and still hold different views. I am quite sure teach ib and I will not agree on everything�it really doesn't matter. But what we do agree on is this: that God is "merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity, and transgression and sin" (Exodus 34:6-7a). That is God's very nature, and He wants that in His children.
You see, I was once a Pharisee, a legalist, a stone thrower, just like you and Singer, until God opened my eyes and showed me His nature of mercy and grace. I began to show mercy to women who divorced because they were physically beaten daily by their husbands. I began to show mercy to divorced women whose husbands were unrepentant pornographers who were guilty of committing adultery in their mind. And I began to show mercy to women who divorced because they had been mentally abused by their husbands until they prayed for death to escape. I threw down my stones and started showing mercy to these women, instead of beating on them with God's Word.
Now you may be wondering, why don't I show mercy to you guys? The answer is very simple: "For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy" (James 2:13).
BobBobbins says, "Who is the liar here?" . . .YOU ARE!!!! The readers only have to read this post to see what kind of a liar you really are. In one breath, you offer an olive branch to me. In the next breath you make an accusation against me. In one breath you say, "Happy Father's Day." In the next breath, you say, "You err in your doctrine and your reasoning is defective." You HYPOCRITE!!! Do you think the readers are that gullible not to see your deceitful ways? PRETENDING to want peace and spitting out your poisonous words at the same time. You, BobBobbins, and Singer4u,have been exposed as frauds, and it is obvious to everyone that you are desperately trying to keep your sinking ship of legalism afloat. But I have news for you. It will not stand against the Word of God!
BobBobbins says, "Paul and Teach_ib can not even agree between themselves what the Biblical grounds for divorce are. Paul holds one standard and teach_ib holds another"
BobBobbin, you could not be MORE WRONG! Your LIES are outrageous. Teach ib and I are one in spirit. She knows and loves the God of mercy and grace, as I do, and is known by Him. And you would do well to hold your tongue against the daughter of the King. God will not hold you guiltless!
BobBobbins quotes God's word, Matt 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." Exactly, all the righteous requirements of the law ARE ALREADY FULFILLED in HIM. That righteousness is not based on you keeping the letter of the law, BUT IN ACCEPTING HIS RIGHTEOUNESS OVER YOURS. I will take the liberty to add your names to the following scripture:
"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel (BobBobbins and Singer4u) is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For CHRIST is the END of the law to everyone who believes" (Romans 10:1-4).
BobBobbins says, "If this is true, Jesus was the most shining example of a legalist." Hardly. Jesus wasn't a hypocrite, never condemned anyone, and was always showing mercy. You, BobBobbins and Singer4u, do not even know what spirit you are of.
BobBobbins says, "Happy Father's Day!" . . . "You err in your doctrine and your reasoning is defective" . . .Hmmm . . . For some reason, after looking at your hypocritical words, I don't believe you are sincere. I wonder why.
BobBobbins says, "I truly hope that at some point you will lay aside your hatred and your anger" . . . I'm sorry to disappoint you BobBobbins. I have nether anger nor hatred toward Singer or you. I do however feel sorry for you both that in your zealousness to keep the letter of the law, you have missed God's mercy.
BobBobbins says, "You err in your doctrine and your reasoning is defective. I have proven this over and over for days" . . .the only thing you have proven to the readers and myself is that my article is correct and that it exposed two modern-day Pharisees who are legalists and stone-throwers, namely yourself and Singer4u. And for that I rejoice.
BobBobbins says, "Did I make any comments anywhere about what a woman should or should not wear?" No, but we are all waiting. For you quote the Word of God in a legalistic manner. You quote Matthew 19:9 that fornication is the only reason for divorce. The definition of fornication according to Encarta � World English Dictionary is "sexual intercourse between two consenting adults, who are not married to each other"
However, according to Jesus, fornication is "But I say to you that whoever LOOKS at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5:28).
A man who looks lustfully after a woman is an adulterer according to Jesus' words. You do not have to hop into bed and have actual sex with another woman to be an adulterer in God's eyes. Therefore any woman who has such a husband, whether he be a pornographer or one who lusts with his eyes after the women in the mall (while his wife is shopping) has every right to divorce him, unless he repents.
BobBobbins says, "Where is this verse in the Bible that states these as exceptions?" (read above and below)
"But He said to them, 'All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given'" (Matthew 19:11)
"neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks" (Ephesians 5:4). And where in the Bible, BobBobbins does it say when humorous talk becomes foolish talk and joking becomes coarse jesting? Your interpretation of foolish talk will no doubt be different from mine. That is why we have the Holy Spirit to convict our conscience when we step out of line.
"in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works" (1Timothy 2:9-10).
Now, BobBobbins, do tell all the women on this site what constitutes modest apparel . . .a dress down to the floor, a dress down to their ankles, or a dress going 1 foot 6 inches past the knees. Now tell them to throw out their jewelry and their gold wedding band and their diamond engagement ring as women who profess godliness. And also supply your address and phone number, so that they can contact you and give you a piece of their mind.
There are no exact details given in scripture for what constitutes modest apparel. That is why we have the Holy Spirit to convict our conscience as individuals when we step out of line.
A man who looks lustfully after a woman is an adulterer according to Jesus' words: "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5:28). You do not have to hop into bed and have actual sex with another woman to be an adulterer in God's eyes. Therefore any woman who has such a husband has every right to divorce him, unless he repents.
BobBobbins says, "NOTICE: Does he accept a truce? Does he offer forgiveness? Does he show any humility whatsoever? Does he offer his own apology?? What does he do? He demands that Singer must bow to his terms in order to receive the kingdom ( Paul's respect)"
Peter denied Jesus publicly 3 times. Jesus demanded Peter confess Him publicly 3 times.(John 21:15-17) Singer4u maligned me publicly. He needs to make a public apology. I was testing Singer4u to see if his apology was sincere. And just like your phony olive-branch offering, BobBobbins, the readers soon discovered the truth.
BobBobbins says, "This is an attempt to build an honest understanding through extension of an olive branch." Then BobBobbins follows with this statement: "Now he (Paul) takes a most haughty and prideful position - he can not be bothered to even address such lowly and ridiculous people such as Singer and I" . . . all I can say is you have a funny way of extending an olive branch. Perhaps you meant poison ivy?
BobBobbins says, "He does not say that I have misinterpreted the word of God." (you have) "but merely his articles. However, he does not show how I have done so." . . .really?
BobBobbins and Singer4u. There's really nothing more to be said to you that has not already been said. So I will continue to repeat it until you hopefully get the message.
So BobBobbins and Singer4u, you have been weighed in the balances and found wanting. Your accusations are unfounded and your interpretations of my article incorrect. Stone throwers all have something in common: They are usually self-righteous, ready to condemn, and can quote the Word of God. They boast in the keeping of the letter of the law while ignoring the weightier matters of justice, mercy and faith. And besides all this, they have one other notable characteristic . . . they are hypocrites. Matthew 23:23-28.
I have been FALSELY accused by you both, implying that I said Jesus sinned. I never said Jesus sinned. YOU DID! You made the ASSUMPTION that Jesus would have sinned if He had broken the Sabbath--I DID NOT. All I said was Jesus broke the Sabbath. Then you drew out your proverbial stones and said the following:
BobBobbins says, "Jesus never broke the sabbath. If he had done so, he would not have been able to fulfill the law. Your salvation could not have occurred. I am not sure where you get such ridiculous ideas. That is completely absurd and totally false."
My response: Absurd and totally false? . . .Really? "Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said God was His Father" (John 5:18). According to the apostle John, who wrote that scripture under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . .Jesus broke the Sabbath.
Singer4u says, "Paul and Goldenfaith both said in their writings on this forum that Yahushua broke Sabbath. That is impossible! You two should know better than that and to say it is total heresy!!! YOU ARE SAYING HE SINNED!"
My response: heresy? . . .really? "Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said God was His Father" (John 5:18). According to the apostle John, who wrote that scripture under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . .Jesus broke the Sabbath.
It is very clear in the Word of God that Jesus BROKE the Sabbath. It also says in the Word of God that Jesus NEVER sinned. I have no problem with both scriptures. It is you, Singer4u and BobBobbins, who have exalted yourselves above the Word of God to add your own interpretation to John 5:18. You both claim that Jesus could not have broken the Sabbath. Since when does your word override God's Word? You claim to be defenders of the Word, yet you are woefully ignorant of it.
"And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, 'Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!'"
But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him:
"how he entered the house of God and ate the showbread which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?
"Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?
"Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple.
"But if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' you would have not condemned the guiltless.
"For the Son of Man is LORD even of the Sabbath." (Matthew 12:2-8)
Oh yes, Jesus broke the Sabbath, but He never sinned. He was WORKING on the Sabbath healing people, but He never sinned, for He was doing exactly what the Father told Him to do. JESUS IS LORD even of the Sabbath.
And now in regards to Singer4u and BobBobbins adamant stand on the reasons for divorce. Both of you have ignored Jesus' Word spoken in Matthew 19:11:
"But He said to them, 'All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given'"
You both ignore Jesus' Word spoken in Matthew 19:11 and quote only Matthew 19:9. Hypocrites! Is Jesus' Word spoken in verse 11 any less anointed than verse 9? You blind guides, you strain out a gnat and swallow a camel. Jesus said, ALL CANNOT ACCEPT the saying that fornication is the only reason for divorce, 'but only those to whom it has been given.'"
So Singer4u and BobBobbins accept that fornication is the only reason for divorce. Good for you. That's between you and God. Jesus said "ALL CANNOT ACCEPT THIS SAYING." And whether you like it or not, Singer4u and BobBobbins, the LORD JESUS makes it clear that He accepts other believers who have views on divorce contrary to yours.
IWalkAlone/BobBobbins writes: "I have been encouraged by others who care about me to walk away from this thread." �sounds like good advice.
Singer4u says, "hear that paul! Don't judge the person judge the actions" �Thank you�I already have. Read below.
Singer4u, you defend IWalkAlone/Bob Bobbins, even though he was proven to be a fraud, having lied about his true identity. He was and is living the lie, while at the same time passing himself off as a man of truth. That's called hypocrisy. He has lost all credibility and anyone who defends him is like him.
"Can two walk together, unless they are agreed?" (Amos 3:3)
"Scripture is Truth...human interpretation of Scripture is not equivalent to the Truth.
If someone posts a verse from the Bible, they have cited the Truth. How one interprets it can make it into something other than the truth.
How we respond to others that we agree or disagree with shows the Autry of the spirit in us. As Christians we should strive to display the fruits of the Holy Spirit even to those who are not in alignment with your interpretation.
Yelling, screaming, ranting, raving, never achieves the goal of persuading someone that you are right. Christians should try to live as Romans 12 describes...and strive to love peaceably with all."
"The argument now is over the speck instead of the overarching issue of the OP...we do not have to completely dissect every word of every verse to understand the truth.
Is divorce allowed? yes.
Is remarriage allowed? Yes, if the divorce is Biblical.
We shouldn't automatically dismiss pr treat someone badly because they were divorced, which is often the case in many churches and by many individuals...no matter the cause of the divorce.
We should be slow to judge and careful with our words and action towards others. When we condemn others we are really condemning ourselves...we are all guilty of some sin, big or small...so we are in reality guilty of them all.
Thankfully God is a forgiving and merciful God, standing ready to forgive us.
"So BobBobbins/IWA or whoever you are, you have ZERO credibility as you have been caught in lies in your identity which makes one question most everything you write other than pure Scripture....and I would look every verse up that you cite for accuracy.
The discussion is over the treatment of people who have been married and their marriage ended in divorce.
Even in your responses Bob/IWA you contradict yourself stating divorce is forbidden based on God hating divorce and then state that Jesus said one could divorce for Biblical reasons. Yes, God hates divorce because divorce is caused by sin. There are Biblical grounds for divorce. No, divorce is not commanded any more than marriage is commanded.
Since we are all guilty of sin, big or small...and lying is a sin, too...we are considered guilty of them all.
We should be careful in how we judge others or condemn for any sin, that is the point of this thread. By jumping to conclusions about people, we often make judgments about them before we have all the facts. One of the points of the stone throwing example Christ gave has to do as much with those who were so quick to judge someone caught in obvious sin that they ignored their own sins."
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 23 Nov, 2013 10:41 PM
PAUL, YOUR REPEATED INSULTS VIOLATE THE FORUM POLICY. YOU ARE LOSING MORE AND MORE CREDIBILITY EACH TIME THAT YOU SLANDER ME WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO SUPPORT YOUR CLAIMS.
Paul and Teach --
Notice that Paul's "evidence" shows me disclosing who I am -- not denying it. This was my own public admission. Far from denying it or hiding it, I am the one who is bring forth this information myself.
So, again I ask both of you to defend your statements.
Proven to be a fraud? Really? When was this proven? Lied about my true identity? Really? when did I do this? caught in lies about my identity? Really? Huh...... I missed have missed this. Who asked me for my identity? I don't recall seeing anyone ask me. Nor, do I recall confirming or denying anything concerning my identity.
Go dig up the quotes and when you cannot produce them, I will anticipate your full retraction and public apology because I know that both of you wish to be "honest and respectable", right?
You are both guilty of bearing false witness among other things.
--------------
WOW!
It's unbelievable the truly GREAT lengths that those who profess Christ as Messiah will go to in order to "do what seems right to them" What does the Bible tell us about this? "There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." (Prov 16:25)
Teach said: "The argument now is over the speck instead of the overarching issue of the OP...we do not have to completely dissect every word of every verse to understand the truth."
Unfortunately for Teach, Jesus declared otherwise when he said that "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Every word down to the jot and tittle are significant and often times the truth lies in distinguishing the details of what is being presented in the verses. As many of the responses in this thread have shown, it is necessary to understand every word so as not to err. This is exactly how the OP failed in his exegesis, he misunderstood the words being said. As such, he now promotes breaking God's commandments. This is a SERIOUS offense. (Matt. 5:19)
Teach said, "Is divorce allowed? yes."
WOW! What does God say about divorce? He says that he HATES it. (Mal. 2:16). He established the law of marriage (Gen. 2:24) and says, "What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." (Matt. 19:6). Make no mistake about it, divorce is forbidden by God. The only permission given for divorce by Christ is for fornication. (Matt. 19:9). Even then, as Christ tells the disciples, this is NOT a command but merely a bare permission if a person's hard is so hardened against their spouse and they are unwilling to forgive them. (Deut. 24:1 and Matt. 19:8)
Teach said, "Is remarriage allowed? Yes, if the divorce is Biblical."
The problem with this statement here is that the OP (and Teach by her agreement) grant divorce on a number of grounds that the Bible does not grant. By claiming that divorce is Biblical for many different reasons, the OP then grants permission for remarriage that is NOT found anywhere in the Word of God. Make no mistake about it, the OP is promoting adultery. This is a SERIOUS OFFENSE. There have now been several who have gone to great lengths to show the OP (and those supporting him) his error. His only response is to go to great lengths to attack the messengers.
Let me repeat that, the OP has no answer to those who show him his Scriptural error. So, he is reduced to vicious ad hominem.
Teach said, " We shouldn't automatically dismiss pr treat someone badly because they were divorced, which is often the case in many churches and by many individuals...no matter the cause of the divorce."
Actually Teach, if the leaders of the churches were teaching the Word the way that they should be, we wouldn't have the ridiculously high divorce rates among professing believers in the first place. The problem isn't the "poor treatment" of divorcees, it is the incredibly permissive attitude of the church leadership that is unwilling to call sin - sin.
Here are the statistics from this site. (rounded to the nearest thousand)
Women 30-70 -- 23,000 listed - 13,000 divorced
Women 35-70 -- 18,000 listed - 12,000 divorced
Women 40-70 -- 15,000 listed - 10,000 divorced
This does not take into any consideration those who list themselves as single who are actually divorced. These numbers are staggering and disgusting.
Would you like to continue to see these numbers increase? Because that is the net result of tossing God's law out the window in favor of man made law's like the OP's.
Teach said,
"We should be slow to judge and careful with our words and action towards others. When we condemn others we are really condemning ourselves...we are all guilty of some sin, big or small...so we are in reality guilty of them all."
This is such a beautiful platitude, isn't it? But what does the Bible teach? The Bible tells us "But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of SEXUAL IMMORALITY or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler-not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging of outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. �PURGE THE EVIL PERSON FROM AMONG YOU" (1 Cor. 5:11-13)
It does not tell us to overlook it or dismiss it because "we are all guilty of some sin" as Teach implies. It does NOT tell us what Teach tells us. It clearly lays out a standard by which we are to judge. The problem isn't "condemnation" it's lack thereof.
Further God tells us:
"15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican (Matt 18:15-17)
The OP (and those who support him) badly err not knowing the Scriptures. There have been many attempts to bring him (and others) back to the truth. " Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins" (James 5:19-20)
"Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment" (Matt 12:33-36)
Be very clear, an evil man CANNOT speak good things. The tree is known by it's fruit ---> WHAT IT SPEAKS (it's words)
Teach said: "Thankfully God is a forgiving and merciful God, standing ready to forgive us." However, she missed the most vital part: repentance. God does not forgive us until we REPENT (turn from our sin). Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; (Acts 3:19)
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1John 3:10)
WHOSEVER DOETH NOT RIGHTEOUSNESS is NOT of God. One CANNOT say that he "loves his brother" while causing him to sin. If we say that we love our brother, we will do our best to keep him from sinning against God. What is sin? Sin is a transgression of God's laws. (1John 3:4) Make no mistake about it, ADULTERY IS SIN!.
---------------------
As a reminder, the OP said,
"The OP said,
"Likewise, there are many reasons someone might seek a divorce: physical and verbal abuse from a spouse . . . being married to an unbeliever who makes life a literal hell . . . marital unfaithfulness . . . the stress of being married to an alcoholic for 23 years . . . or living with a pornographer who refuses to repent. Which one of these reasons for divorce is "God approved"? That's the point Jesus was making. Just as the eunuchs were acceptable to God regardless of how they became a eunuch, so also is a woman acceptable to God who seeks to be free from an abusive husband, even if infidelity is not involved. You and I cannot see in the heart of that abused person . . . but God can. For God has called them to peace."
---
Is there anyone willing to defend this as a Biblical statement? Teach? Anyone?
The OP said,
""But He said to them, 'All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given'" (Matthew 19:11).
What saying? The saying in verse 9 of course. NOT ALL can accept the saying that fornication is the ONLY reason for divorce.
Now notice that Jesus goes on to explain what He meant with the following verse:
"For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother's womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it" (Matthew 19:12).
What did Jesus mean by this? He tells us that three different men all became eunuchs for different reasons. One was born a eunuch, another was made a eunuch by men, and still another made himself that way for the kingdom of heaven. They all became eunuchs for different reasons, but who is to say which eunuch is "God approved"? God accepted them all. That's the point!"
---
Is there anyone willing to defend this as a correct understanding of the passage? Teach? Anyone?
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 23 Nov, 2013 10:52 PM
Paul you can only continue to call me a fraud under the guised term of legalists. You haven't caught me in no lies etc. The point is that is a deflection in and of itself. I like the term lawful. Meaning I believe we are to obey Messiah's commands=not to be saved but to prove we love him and that our faith is real. Also so that we won't be counted as lukewarm and spat out of Messiah's mouth and body. If that makes me a legalists then okay.... But a fraud=that's a strong term and unproven towards me. Just because I don't agree with you doctrinally. I don't believe once saved always saved. Answer me this. If we are called to be obediant then what actually is being obediant according to you???? I would like to know and those who have contacted me concerning this forum. So if you will please tell us........
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 23 Nov, 2013 10:59 PM
I also request more specifics than what you posted about IWA lying because that is vague and a little confusing. Therefore he posted a counterclaim saying he admitted to his identity. Provide more specified proof you or teach of what you have and answer his counterclaim or no one on this forum including me can exactly see this without specific time frames and repostings in their entirety.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 23 Nov, 2013 11:00 PM
Singer,
I wonder if somebody who drives the speed limit is a legalist, too? :laugh:
As you said, those who keep the law are lawful or law abiding. Of course, how much more true is this in respect to the Kingdom of God and His law? We are told, "If you love me, keep my commandments". We are NOT told, If you keep my commandments, you are a legalist :laugh:
All of the faulty reasoning and Scriptural error is being exposed here, brother.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 23 Nov, 2013 11:20 PM
There are two proper understandings of "legalist that are supported by the study of the Bible. (Scribes, Pharisees, judaizers, etc.)
1.) the imposing of man-made laws/traditions in addition to God's law upon other believers
2.) the belief that a person is justified by works (keeping the law)
For the record, I am guilty of neither. I doubt Singer is teaching either of these concepts, either.
Here is Teach's definition, " holding rigidly to laws and not showing mercy like Christ did/does, makes one a legalist"
Posted : 7 Jun, 2012 12:39 PM
How defective is that understanding? Teach makes Yahshua himself to be a legalist since held to every jot and tittle of the law. He was the perfect law keeper.
He also said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Matt 5:17-20)
