Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 2 Feb, 2012 11:28 PM
Thanks to a question about divorce and remarriage posted on another thread, I felt the need to address those on this site who may be suffering from the weight of guilt and condemnation heaped on them because of their reasons for divorce.
I wrote the following article, "The Stone Thrower", based on actual instances that happened on this site. If you are one of those who have been ostracized by others for having an "Unbiblical Divorce," please take the time to read. May it minister to your heart.
The Stone Thrower
I want to touch on a subject today that has long been regarded in Christendom as taboo . . . and that is . . . DIVORCE. Mention that word around some Christians and their hackles suddenly go up on the back of their neck. They pull out their proverbial stones ready to put to death anyone who they think has been un-biblically divorced. And to my shame, I was one of them�a stone thrower.
We all know the story of the woman caught in adultery in John 8:3-11. The scribes and Pharisees (the religious self-righteous) had arrested this woman and dragged her before Jesus. One has to wonder how these Pharisees caught such a woman "in the very act" of adultery. How convenient for them. It's amazing the depths of depravity the self-righteous will sink to in order to defend their religious arguments. Did they have the paparazzi spy on her to get some juicy pictures for the whole world to see?
At any rate, they dragged this poor woman in front of Jesus and proudly proclaimed, "Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?" (John 8:5)
Zowie!! These men can quote the Word of God . . . at least the parts that suit their fancy.
I like our Lord's reaction. "But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear" (John 8:6b).
Don't you just love it when someone ignores you . . . especially when you're trying to win an argument? But the self-righteous rarely lie down without a fight, and those religious Pharisees were determined to prove that they had the "truth." So they continued pestering Jesus, knowing that the Law of Moses was on their side. It's not a good idea to pester Jesus, especially when it comes to "pointing a finger" at someone.
"So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, 'He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.' And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. Then those who heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning from the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst" (John 8:7-9).
This introductory story of the woman caught in adultery has a purpose: I wanted you to have a glimpse of the mentality of a "stone thrower." They are usually self-righteous, ready to condemn, and can quote the Word of God. Ouch . . . I just described me.
I had a clear cut answer for the reasons one might give to justify divorce which I thought was quite Biblical. And in my mind, there was only one reason . . . "But I say to you, that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except for sexual immorality, causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery" (Matthew 5:32). There you have it�plain and simple. Who could argue with such a statement? It is the Word of God! I thought I had the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth . . . yet the truth is . . . I was ignorant of the ways of God. "For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment" (James 2:13).
And it was in my ignorance to God's ways that I threw stones at the divorced ladies on a Christian dating site some time ago. As a widower, I was on this site looking for a prospective wife. I was so appalled at the amount of women who were divorced on this site whose reasons for separating from their husbands did not match my view of scripture. In order to protect myself from these "contaminated souls," I purposely wrote something in my profile for those that I would consider as wife material: "You may be single, widowed, or divorced (must be for Biblical reasons only)."
When I would communicate with these divorced ladies, I would immediately ask them to provide details on the reason for their divorce. If they could not give me an answer of infidelity as the reason for their divorce, then I considered them unmarriageable. Yet God has a way of grabbing His child's attention when that child is in error.
One of the ladies on this dating site told me her story of divorce after I demanded it. Her husband was deep in bondage to pornography and had no interest whatsoever in repentance. The man had not physically hopped into bed with another woman, and so in my self-righteousness, I condemned the poor wife for wanting to opt out on the marriage. And the "stones" that I threw created fresh wounds in her heart while she recounted those painful memories of her husband's infidelity as he lusted after porn. According to Jesus' own words, her husband WAS GUILTY of adultery: "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5:28). I ignored that scripture and concentrated only on Matthew 5:32. She lashed out at me, saying that she was glad Jesus did not condemn her even if I did. I have to admit, I was shaken by her story which moved me to tears.
Then there was another lady whom I demanded to give an account for her divorce. I threw "stones" at her as well when she could not give me a reason of infidelity for her separation. In bitter anger, she struck back at me, stating how her husband had broken her nose and physically abused her. I ignored the scripture which reads, "But God has called us to peace" (1 Corinthians 7:15b) and concentrated again on Matthew 5:32. However, her story bothered me very much just like the other woman's.
I began to seek God earnestly. These were only two of the many ladies who shared with me their heartbreaking stories of divorce. There were so many reasons given for divorce and none of them fell under sexual immorality (fornication) as I saw it. I sincerely asked the Lord to open my eyes. Was there any scriptural evidence to support these women's choices to opt out of a marriage other than infidelity? Yes, there was.
God led me to Matthew 19:3-12. The Pharisees were looking for a reason to trap Jesus in His words. Their previous scheme had not worked with the woman caught in adultery. However, if they could just get Jesus to say something contradictory to the Law of Moses, then they could brand Him as a heretic. So they asked Jesus this question, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?" (Matthew 19:3b)
Jesus' answer was, and still is, God's original intention for marriage: "Have you not read . . . the two shall become one flesh? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate" (Matthew 19:5b-6).
The Pharisees did not like His answer. For Jesus had taken them right back to Genesis before there ever was a Moses or a Law of Moses so that they could hear what GOD SAYS about marriage. Yet the stiff-necked Pharisees persisted with another question: "Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?" (Matthew 19:7)
Jesus responds, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so" (Matthew 19:8).
The self-righteous Pharisees were using the Law of Moses as an excuse to bail out on marriages for any flippant reason. And because of this, the Lord had some very strong words for them. "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery" (Matthew 19:9).
I can just hear the stone throwers shouting, "See, I told you . . . it's right there in the word . . . 'sexual immorality!'"
Wait a minute. Like Paul Harvey, let's hear "the rest of the story" before jumping to any conclusions. After verse 9 comes verse 10. Even Jesus' disciples, which would include us, were amazed at the words of Jesus. "His disciples said to Him, 'If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry'" (Matthew 19:10). Yeah, I can see their point. If sexual immorality (fornication) is the only reason for divorce, then perhaps we are better off not getting married.
But look at Jesus' response to his own disciples in verse 11. It stands to reason that if the disciples' statement was true, then Jesus would have said something to affirm it as such. He does not!
"But He said to them, 'All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given'" (Matthew 19:11).
What saying? The saying in verse 9 of course. NOT ALL can accept the saying that fornication is the ONLY reason for divorce.
Now notice that Jesus goes on to explain what He meant with the following verse:
"For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother's womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it" (Matthew 19:12).
What did Jesus mean by this? He tells us that three different men all became eunuchs for different reasons. One was born a eunuch, another was made a eunuch by men, and still another made himself that way for the kingdom of heaven. They all became eunuchs for different reasons, but who is to say which eunuch is "God approved"? God accepted them all. That's the point!
Likewise, there are many reasons someone might seek a divorce: physical and verbal abuse from a spouse . . . being married to an unbeliever who makes life a literal hell . . . marital unfaithfulness . . . the stress of being married to an alcoholic for 23 years . . . or living with a pornographer who refuses to repent. Which one of these reasons for divorce is "God approved"? That's the point Jesus was making. Just as the eunuchs were acceptable to God regardless of how they became a eunuch, so also is a woman acceptable to God who seeks to be free from an abusive husband, even if infidelity is not involved. You and I cannot see in the heart of that abused person . . . but God can. For God has called them to peace.
And the church has done more harm counselling emotionally and physically battered women to stay in a relationship citing Matthew 5:32 "except for sexual immorality" as the only just cause for divorce. Women have actually committed suicide and murder under the stress of remaining in an abusive situation because their legalistic church counseled them to do so.
You may have heard of the case in the U.S. where a lady killed her husband (a pastor) who had been abusing her for years. God had called her to peace . . . but she never knew it, and one day she snapped. The evidence of abuse was so overwhelming that the courts found this woman not guilty of murder by reason of insanity.
I certainly do not want to imply that people should take their marriage so lightly as to divorce for every whim and fancy. I would not condone that, and neither does the Word of God. Every marriage will have its share of problems which can be worked out with God's help by two committed individuals. Yet there are some women, especially those suffering physical and mental abuse, who have reached the tipping point of no return; and the only thing they can do to preserve their sanity is to get out of that marriage. And ultimately, it is to the Lord they answer to, not you or me. He has called them to peace.
After God opened my eyes to the truth of scripture, I contacted those ladies on the dating site who I had thrown "stones" at and apologized profusely. I was truly grieved that I had been so self-righteous and blind, wounding those precious sisters for whom Christ died.
Now back to the story that I began with. The "stone throwers" had already dropped their rocks and left the scene with a guilty conscience, leaving Jesus alone with the adulterous woman.
"He said to her, 'Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?'"
"She said, 'No one, Lord.'"
"And Jesus said to her, 'Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more'" (John 8:10b-11).
HALLELUJAH�MERCY TRIUMPHS OVER JUDGMENT!!!
Blessings in Christ Jesus,
Paul Janz
(All Scripture quotations are taken from the Holy Bible, New King James Version.)
"The Stone Thrower" Copyright � 2010 by Paul Janz.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 18 Nov, 2013 01:53 PM
Speaking of deviating of topic...Maybe this is a game to you, it is not to me.
Deuteronomy 24:1-4
1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.�
2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.�
3 And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;�
4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the Lord: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 18 Nov, 2013 04:42 PM
Teach --
I'd like you to read this again, please.
"Likewise, there are many reasons someone might seek a divorce: physical and verbal abuse from a spouse . . . being married to an unbeliever who makes life a literal hell . . . marital unfaithfulness . . . the stress of being married to an alcoholic for 23 years . . . or living with a pornographer who refuses to repent. Which one of these reasons for divorce is "God approved"? That's the point Jesus was making. Just as the eunuchs were acceptable to God regardless of how they became a eunuch, so also is a woman acceptable to God who seeks to be free from an abusive husband, even if infidelity is not involved."
This is what the OP says. You've continued to argue in favor of the OP. Yet, now you assert Deut. 24.
Let's be clear, Deut 24 & Matt 19 affirm the same commands. You may NOT divorce your wife except for fornication and this is NOT a command it is merely a permission if your heart is so hardened against her for her sexual sin. This OP's error is aggregious. Yet, you continue to affirm your support for his teaching.
Here is the OP again, "But I say to you, that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except for sexual immorality, causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery" (Matthew 5:32). There you have it�plain and simple. Who could argue with such a statement? It is the Word of God! I thought I had the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth . . . yet the truth is . . . I was ignorant of the ways of God."
Several men now have come here and renounced this OP as errant and totally false. Yet the OP stands pridefully unrepentant behind a totally laughable exegesis of Matt 19 and a totally perverse representation of John 8.
So Teach, you claim that this is not a game to you. Yet, you have gone to great lengths to defend error and impugn truth and those who have delivered it. Many times, totally diverting the subject or evading the issues at hand with rabbit trail arguments.
It's been clearly demonstrated that this is NOT a game to me or to Singer.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 18 Nov, 2013 04:56 PM
"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Teach,
Let me ask you again, do you agree with Paul's statement that the posting of this verse "misses the heart of God"? Do you agree with Paul that the teaching in this verse "clearly misrepresents God"?
I assert this verse to make it plain and clear that even someone who teaches men to break "the least commandments" will be considered "least" in the kingdom. Now, what do you suppose awaits the person who is teaching others that it is okay to break larger commandments such as "thou shalt not commit adultery"?
Isa 8:20
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Teach, do you agree with Paul's statement that the posting of this verse "misses the heart of God"? Do you agree with Paul that the teaching in this verse "clearly misrepresents God"?
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 18 Nov, 2013 08:59 PM
IWA, you cherry pick words and phrases the same way you cherry pick verses to try to make your point. You use faulty logic in your writings that I do not desire to spend my time mapping out. You jump all over the place trying to sound righteous and pious but your message comes across full of hatred for those who post their thoughts.
I can find fault in most people's logic and God can find fault in ALL (the inclusive all) people's presentations. Your effort to discredit the intent and nature of the OP shows a contentious and annoying spirit. Just becaus you say it does not make it truth...you are but a mere human, too.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 18 Nov, 2013 10:19 PM
Teach -
On Jun 5, 2012, you introduced yourself to me (a complete stranger to you) by calling me a "legalist". When forced to prove your claim that I am a legalist, you supplied a non-Biblical explanation of legalist.
In reality, your words and actions towards me have never changed from that very first comment. You still continue to make claims. I continue to challenge them. You continue to NOT be able to defend your claims factually or Biblically. In other words, your claims are never supported by objective truth.
Now, you've made another pile of false claims. Normally, I would challenge you to prove those claims out. However, I've been through this drill with you many times now and we both already know how it ends.
"Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." Jude 1:3-4
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 19 Nov, 2013 12:27 AM
IWalkAlone says, "Here, he is promoting another devilish idea that a woman should instruct a man."
devilish idea? Really? Have you not read� "Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, was judging Israel at that time. And she would sit under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the mountains of Ephraim. And the children of Israel came up to her for judgement" (Judges 4::4-5). Here is a woman, chosen by God, instructing men, and you, IWalkAlone, say it's a "devilish idea".
Well did Jesus call you Pharisees for who you really are�hypocrites. For you feign to be a God-fearing man to the reader while at the same time mocking God's idea of choosing a woman (Deborah) to instruct men, calling it a "devilish idea". You ignore the Word of God in Acts 21:9, Joel 2:28-29, and Acts 2:17-18 where God says "Your daughters will prophesy�. and on My maidservants I will pour out my Spirit in those days and they shall prophesy", and you concentrate on one single verse, "And I do not suffer a woman to teach" (1Timothy 2:12). Hypocrite!!! You blind guide. You ignore the weightier evidence in scripture that God uses women to instruct men today while you make up your own doctrine.
In regards to my article, IWalkAlone, you have ignored and mocked Jesus' very own words in Matthew 19:10-12, and concentrated on verse 9 alone. You hypocrite. The same Jesus who spoke verse 9 also spoke verse 10, 11 and 12.
"But He said to them, 'All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given'" (Matthew 19:11).
What saying was Jesus speaking of? The saying in verse 9 of course. NOT ALL can accept the saying that fornication is the ONLY reason for divorce. Your issue, IWalk Alone, is not with me but with the Word of God. And just as the Pharisees hated Jesus because He did fit into their man-made doctrines, so you do the same.
One thing is for certain, IWalkAlone, you do not speak for God. The very scripture you quoted now becomes your condemnation: "To the law and to the testimony: if they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" (Isaiah 8:20).
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 19 Nov, 2013 02:06 AM
Teach IB. I never said I didn't forgive my ex. I did forgive but I wasn't going to rejoin myself to a continually defiled woman.
Also on the verse you quoted that a woman may go and be another man's wife. " She may go" is not in the original Hebrew. The actual wording there is( she goes} and becomes another man's wife.
As far as the unpardonable sin. Could it be that it takes many forms. other than speaking against? Is it worse to speak against the Holy Spirit or sin directly and willfully against the Holy Spirit's instructions and prompting despite? Could the Holy Ghost be offended by direct actions just as much as being spoken against. The issue was that of attributing the Holy Ghost's positive actions to those of the devil's. Yet does not one's living for the devil by willfully sinning like him not offend the Holy Ghost too is that not blasphemy also. Being a bad witness misrepresents him too huh? I think we need to look into matters for ourselves and see what the possibilities are rather than count on teachings handed down traditionally.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 19 Nov, 2013 02:12 AM
:laugh: Another EPIC FAIL!!
Paul the stone thrower and enemy of God's law :devil: said,
"In regards to my article, IWalkAlone, you have ignored and mocked Jesus' very own words in Matthew 19:10-12, and concentrated on verse 9 alone. You hypocrite. The same Jesus who spoke verse 9 also spoke verse 10, 11 and 12.
"But He said to them, 'All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given'" (Matthew 19:11).
What saying was Jesus speaking of? The saying in verse 9 of course. NOT ALL can accept the saying that fornication is the ONLY reason for divorce. Your issue, IWalk Alone, is not with me but with the Word of God. And just as the Pharisees hated Jesus because He did fit into their man-made doctrines, so you do the same."
=======
No Paul, let's be clear, I have NOT ignored or mocked Jesus' very own words. I have mocked your BLASPHEMOUS PERVERSION of them. Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures.
Here you go. Read it over and over until you understand what's being said in the text of Matt 19:9-12
9. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Jesus here teaches that there is no permission for divorce except for the cause of fornication. If, you divorce for any other reason and remarry you commit adultery.
10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
His disciples understanding the severity of this law and it's implications conclude then that it might be "not good to marry"
11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
Which saying?? The saying immediately preceding it in the text: "If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry." Notice that verse 11 refers back to verse 10. It does not skip the saying in verse 10 and go back to a saying from verse 9. This is how dialogue typically works.
THIS IS THE SAYING THAT ALL MEN CANNOT RECEIVE UNLESS THEY ARE EUNUCHS: "If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry."
12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
He goes on to explain that there are men (eunuchs for various reasons) that are able to receive this saying and
abstain from marriage. Thus, Eunuchs would be able to receive this idea but not all men can receive it.
With the proper understanding of this text, the entirety of your argument is thrown completely out the window. The idea that Jesus is here asserting that there are many reasons for divorce and He accepts them all after he has just said that the only exception for divorce is fornication is laughably ignorant. :laugh:
"Your issue, PAUL JANZ :devil:, is not with me but with the Word of God. And just as the Pharisees hated Jesus because He did not fit into their man-made doctrines, so you do the same."
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 19 Nov, 2013 02:24 AM
Matt 5: 17-19
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Paul, please please please keep teaching people that it's okay to break commandments. :dunce: I want you to keep doing it. Do it early and often.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 19 Nov, 2013 01:53 PM
IWA wrote: "On Jun 5, 2012, you introduced yourself to me (a complete stranger to you) by calling me a "legalist". When forced to prove your claim that I am a legalist, you supplied a non-Biblical explanation of legalist. "
***First of all I introduced myself to the thread on that date...you have now confirmed you are the previously banned BobBobbins as IWA was not on the thread at that time. �As for a non-Biblical explanation, I provided the definition I used in referring to you and Singer on the way you were presenting your views. �I don't believe the term "legalist" is in the Bible so any description would fundamentally be non-Biblical. �Whether you agree with my definition or description or impression of you is not relevant.
I made my assessment of your posts based on over 80 posts made on the thread before I even read and responded as my first post was on page 9. �
My post for the record:
"Thank you Really_54 for this thread. Ironically, I went through a self study on the issue of divorce and remarriage during this the timing of this thread although I am just now reading through it.
Going through divorce for any reason is not something taken lightly and being judged/condemned on every hand by people who are legalists such as BobBobbins and Singer4u only compounds the pain.
I was saved by faith, not by works. I remain secure in my salvation even if I do sin as no one (not even me) can remove me from the hand of God.
The scriptures cited repeatedly by Bob and Singer are not all inclusive...I could provide a slew of references that show divorce and remarriage in the Bible...some already cited.�
I am under grace, nor under the law...legalists should not limit the power and mercy of the God I serve."
