And any decent human being would do the same. I am fed up with people who claim the name of Jesus but have no trouble at all supporting conservative candidates. It makes Christ look bad and it must stop
"A fetus is not a full human being thats why its different. But even if a fetus were a full human being there is still nothing in scripture to qualify abortion as murder. Termination of life yes. Murder....no."
Who exactly has the authority to terminate life? The taking of a life is murder. Clearly from scripture we see that a fetus at it's earliest stages, is not a "full human". That is irrelevant when you consider that God was a work forming the entire time..so it's always a human...just not fully developed.
" What lro lifers do is take scriptures from all different parts of the bible and put them together as if they were all one statement"
There is nothing wrong with this. Groups of scriptures together can paint a larger picture and shed light on a topic. You haven't really put together a compelling case for why this is bad.
" But when i check the scriptures for myself, and read the context around said scriptures, i usually find that the scriptures in question do not say what the pro lifers are telling me they say"
And what is this context that pro-lifers are missing? Will you show how we get the verses wrong please?
"Not all life terminations are murder and when someone says that abortion is murder, they are speaking based on their own emotion and have no scripture to back that up."
If I came to your house and killed you, what have I done? Not all termination of life is murder, but termination of innocent life when you do not have the authority to do so, is indeed murder.
"The truth is both sides make a convincing case for their point of view."
You've sought this whole time to make a case(allbeit a weak one) against this. You have argued that pro-lifers make a very weak case...
"When i did look at what they had to say my mind opened up a bit. "
You make the mistake of assuming most pro-lifers don't hear what the other side has to say. No, we hear it...we just disagree.
Ok mr holdingouthope, even though ive already refuted half your points, im glad to do so again....................
1) the woman has the right to terminate life because that life is part of her own body. You say the taking of life is murder but youre just spewing talking points. The reason i know that is because youre a cop and you know full well your statement cannot be true on its on.
2) of course theres something wrong with taking different parts of scripture and putting them together as if they are one statement. Its called prooftexting and its completely dishonest. You pro life nuts take passages that have nothing to do with the subject at hand and try to make it seem like they prove your point........they dont. But even with all that there stilk isnt a single scripture that even comes close to stating that abortion is murder.
3) the verses are wrong because they dont even come close to stating that abortion is murder. You can search scripture high and low and will never find a verse that even comes close to stating that. Nor will you find a verse that gives the same legal protections to lives in the womb that it does to lives in the world. Whether you like it or not, its just not there.
4) your fourth point has already bee refuted, but im glad to do so again. Going to someones house to kill them is a completely different situation. And who told you the mother dont have the right to terminate life in her own body? Where did you get that from? It sure wasnt scripture.
5) a little advice, calling my case weak doesnt actually make it weak :) nice try though neocon :) :). The burden of proof is on you anyway. Come on friend. Youre a cop.....you know how this works. You pro lifers are the prosecution here. Youre the ones that state that abortion is murder and god hates it. So its on you to find scripture to back up what youre saying. Im still waiting.
Posted - "1) the woman has the right to terminate life because that life is part of her own body."
Right. Like an appendage? Take an anatomy class. Nowhere is an unborn baby a "part of a woman's body". It is a separate life with its own circulatory and nervous systems, that develops and grows inside a woman's uterus. It is a separate individual.
And your statement, "A fetus is not a full human being thats why its different", as an excuse to separate terms of murder for those outside the womb vs. those inside the womb, is ridiculous. Which part of an unborn child is not "a full human being"?
Posted - "Nor will you find a verse that gives the same legal protections to lives in the womb that it does to lives in the world."
God values the life the unborn as much as He does those who live outside the womb. The death of an unborn child at the hands of another brought death to the one who killed the unborn child. This penalty is no different than the one for the man who kills another man. I gave you Scripture.
Absolute garbage. Let me once again refute you soundly. Although i must admit its become so easy its barely fun anymore. Anyway lets begin.....................
1) EVEN if i took an anatomy class this doesnt change the fact that the bible does no even come close to saying abortion is murder. And of course the fetus is part of the womans body lol where are u getting you info from you nutjob? Looks like youre the one who needs to take classes...........
2) i dont need an excuse to seperate terms of murder. Since abortion is not murder this is simply unneccesary. But youre more than welcome to show me from scripture where it states that it is.
3) god values the life of the unborn as much as the born......really? Prove it. Oh wait you cant. I guess youre just gonna have to keepnyour republican nonsense out of my female friends bodies.
"the woman has the right to terminate life because that life is part of her own body."
No, that life is in her body...It is not her life anymore than it is the father of the child's life. It is clearly a child inside her body and not a part of her own body...
"You say the taking of life is murder but youre just spewing talking points. The reason i know that is because youre a cop and you know full well your statement cannot be true on its on."
This is not a response. Excuse the pun but it's a cop out. It's not sufficient to say you know I'm wrong simply because I'm a cop. The willful taking of an innocent life is murder. If you come take my life, you are a murderer. You may be referring to the fact that our laws distinguish between manslaughter, murder, etc. That is irrelevant because scripture is our foundation...not the nation's laws.
"of course theres something wrong with taking different parts of scripture and putting them together as if they are one statement. Its called prooftexting and its completely dishonest."
Okay, you aren't understanding this issue here and I'm not really sure how to make it more plain to you.
I'll give an example...Take Psalm 139:13..."13 For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb."
Now this verse seems to imply that God would form everyone in the mother's womb. However, on it's own, the verse doesn't teach that. But when you add Job 31:13�15...."13 �If I have rejected the cause of my manservant or my maidservant, when they brought a complaint against me, 14 what then shall I do when God rises up? When he makes inquiry, what shall I answer him? 15 Did not he who made me in the womb make him? And did not one fashion us in the womb?"...Not only do we have Job admitting that God formed him in the womb, but that the same God formed Job's servants as well. This is an expansion of Psalm 139. Now if you still tell me that different parts of scripture cannot come together for one teaching than you are being dishonest.
"You pro life nuts take passages that have nothing to do with the subject at hand and try to make it seem like they prove your point........they dont. But even with all that there stilk isnt a single scripture that even comes close to stating that abortion is murder."
What do you think the destruction of God's innocent, living, creation is? This is what God says on the matter..."�Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image."...."and also for the innocent blood that he had shed. For he filled Jerusalem with innocent blood, and the LORD WOULD NOT PARDON."...."16 There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: 17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,"..."�Egypt shall become a desolation and Edom a desolate wilderness, for the violence done to the people of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land."...This is what our God thinks about the shedding of innocent blood. Now, it is not I who have to explain why abortion is murder. You have to explain why the taking of an innocent life is NOT murder.
"the verses are wrong because they dont even come close to stating that abortion is murder. You can search scripture high and low and will never find a verse that even comes close to stating that. Nor will you find a verse that gives the same legal protections to lives in the womb that it does to lives in the world. Whether you like it or not, its just not there."
You claim to have studied the context and learned from that there the verses do not say what we say they say. Now...please show me the context of these verse and how the context changes the meaning. Otherwise, you are just saying a bunch of nothing.
"Going to someones house to kill them is a completely different situation. And who told you the mother dont have the right to terminate life in her own body? Where did you get that from? It sure wasnt scripture."
No, it's not...the baby doesn't get a choice where it's home is until it comes out. You going to my house to kill me is the same as me killing the baby inside a woman(please excuse the nasty reference). I'd be charged for it as well. You see...you have tried to turn the issue around and say that I have to give a specific verse for this. I do not....and I do not because the clear teaching throughout all of scripture is that the taking of innocent life is sin...It is you who have to turn this on it's head and explain why that STANDARD is supposedly now different for a woman with child. There is never any hint in scripture that the standard changes. Taking of innocent life is wrong. Unless you can show otherwise in scripture, then you are basing your belief on the world's standards...
"a little advice, calling my case weak doesnt actually make it weak :) nice try though neocon :) :)"
Yes sure...but I never made the case that calling you case weak made it weak..did I? Irrelevant....I'm not speaking from a political viewpoint here...btw..."neocon"?...also irrelevant
"The burden of proof is on you anyway."
No...no it's not. The burden of proof was on me for the claims I made which I have backed up with scripture. You have made several claims of your own...placing the burden of proof on yourself...and have refused to back up those claims.
"Come on friend. Youre a cop.....you know how this works"
Irrelevant...we've discussed your issue with cops previously. There is no need to do it in other threads.
"Youre the ones that state that abortion is murder and god hates it. So its on you to find scripture to back up what youre saying. Im still waiting."
Wrong...you would have a better analogy if you said I had arrested you for the crime of abortion and we were in court to prove it was murder and to prove you were guilty. However we are just having a discussion on the topic...one that you claim to know what the scripture teaches, but still refused to give the context that you claim refutes us. Heck you can't even admit that one idea can be formed using multiple passages... which is a given.
"God values the life the unborn as much as He does those who live outside the womb. The death of an unborn child at the hands of another brought death to the one who killed the unborn child. This penalty is no different than the one for the man who kills another man. I gave you Scripture. "
For his viewing pleasure again...
"22 �When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if there is harm,[d] then you shall pay life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."
Stop saying that God doesn't value the unborn life. Stop saying it's not a human. How do you reconcile your belief with these verses...and other verses posted?
"EVEN if i took an anatomy class this doesnt change the fact that the bible does no even come close to saying abortion is murder. And of course the fetus is part of the womans body lol where are u getting you info from you nutjob? Looks like youre the one who needs to take classes"
The ONLY way a fetus is part of a woman's body is that it is in her body. It is not her body. The child has a body of it's own. One example...you kill a woman and the child inside of her lives? Why did the child not die? It was part of the woman, was it not? The woman then must be part of the child as well, right? So if the child is called, then woman is also dead? No man...they are two separate beings...one that God is in the process of forming with His own hands. The fetus is merely inside the woman's body...as this is the design of God, that a child shall be brought forth in this way. It makes the child no less of IT'S OWN PERSON.
"i dont need an excuse to seperate terms of murder. Since abortion is not murder this is simply unneccesary. But youre more than welcome to show me from scripture where it states that it is."
She has given the scripture...as I have given the scripture as well. Exodus 21:22-25...You are so caught up in the fact that you do not see the word abortion in scripture that you cannot even clear your mind enough to have a decent discussion of the relevant verses... Since you are fond of giving tips, I will give you one. One need not find the word "abortion" in scripture to find a teaching against abortion.
"I guess youre just gonna have to keepnyour republican nonsense out of my female friends bodies. "
If we are all going to be honest here, what this boils down to is you will side with anything you deem liberal. Your standard is your political party and not scripture.
Ok. Time to refute you once again holdingouthope. Here goes...........m
1) a baby or fetus or whatever is part of the womans body til it comes out. No doctor would disagree with thatm good try though neocon. But even if it werent you still have not achieved your objective to show from scripture how abortion is murder.
2) my point was that as a cop you know full well that not all killing is murder.
3) all the psalmist says is he himself was knitted in hia mothers womb. Not that all men are knitted. But even if i were to conceed that God personally knits all fetuses together, you still dont have any scripture that even comes close to comparing abortion to murder.
4) since abortion has not even come close to being proven as murder your scriptures about ma shedding mans blood are absolutely irrelevant.
5) what do ylu mean im saying a bunch of nothing. Its you neocons who say abortion is murder.......prove it.
6) what secular mans law is regarding the killing of a pregnant lady has nothing to do with whether or not God says abortion is murder. Man ylure getting desperate.
7) the burden of proof IS one you because you are accusing those who have had abortions of murder. Its on you to prove that this particular type of killing is in fact murder by biblical standards.
8) the scripture in your next comment doesnt apply because the woman in question obviously intends to have the baby in question. Besides nothing even close to abortion is described in this scripture.
