ARMINIAN SPEAKING;gee,Im so glad that I made that decision to follow christ cuz if I hadnt done that I wouldnt be saved,Im really a clever person because I was able to choose god,and my neghbor is not as smart as me,thankyou god for making me smarter than my neighbor so in all of MY great wisdom I was able to see the wisdom in following you!
calvinist speaking:thankYOU lord for opening my eyes oh lord,for without YOUR grace and mercy,i would still be dead in my tresspasses and sin,YOU regenerated my mind,took away my heart of stone,And YOU gave me a heart of flesh,thankYOU oh lord for saving a wretch like me,in JESUS NAME AMEN
The word force is not relevant,when your dead and brought back to life,you will naturally be very greatful to the doctor,this debate is very old,it goes all the way back to the 1600s,when arminianism was first dreamed up,and there are thousands of verses that back up the doctrines of grace,its what the martrys spilled their blood for.If you read the bible from beginning to end,the one thing becomes crystal clear to you,is god is completly 100 percent sovereign,and nothing happens outside of his will,including his predestined,chosen before the foundation of the world sheep,who hear his voice,and can not be snatched out of his hand
Lol....I read the bible from beginning to end...I didn't get that. No man can snatch you out...but what if God wants to let go? Anyway...I believe that the early church went through a massive apostasy. Sorry Catholics...but they were responsible for millions of dead Christians. Anyone that opposed their views were killed. Only priests were allowed to read the bible. God's law was changed. You could buy forgiveness for sin. I believe a lot of truth was lost during this time. And I believe people like Martin Lurther...John Huss...all the early reformers were responsible for finding the pieces. I don't think they figured it all out at once though. God gave them just enough truth to change them without driving them away. Some things were not supposed to be understood until the end.
"But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." Daniel 12:4
"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it. In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst. Amos 8:11-13
"Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." Daniel 12:10
If you read the beginning of revelation, Jesus is talking to the 7 churches...and I believe each church represents a era of christian history. Many times in those verses Jesus warns the churches to return to the truth, to come back from idolatry and fornication.
Ah,a point of agreement!yes the catholic church is an apostate body,I too walk a fine line of trying not to offend anyone,but I feel compelled to stand up for gods truth,one thing I would like to challenge you on,If you can,try to find me an example of anything in the bible Where gods ultimate sovereign will is not exercised,or will be eventually!I would be extremely interested in your response
Oh,I forgot,god promises not to let go,you see,we are a love gift from the father to the son,this is our ultimate destiny,to serve and glorify the lord forever,its not about US,its about THEM,this is their universe,WE(THE ELECT)are just blessed enough to get to spend eternity with them!:dancingp:
Romans 8;3 and those he PREDESTINED he also called;and those he called,he also justified,and those whom he justified,he also glorified
galations 1;15,16;but when he who had set me apart BEFORE I WAS BORN,and had CALLED ME THROUGH HIS GRACE ,WAS PLEASED TO REVEAL HIS SON TO ME,in order that i might preach him among the gentiles,i did not confer with flesh and blood.
2timothy 1;9 ....who saved us and called us with a holy calling not in virtue of our works but in virtue of HIS OWN PURPOSE and the grace wich he gave us in christ jesus AGES AGO
Revelation 17;14 .....they will make war on the lamb,and the lamb will conquer them,for he is lord of lords and king of kings,and those with him are CALLED and CHOSEN and faithful
john3;27 No one can RECEIVE ANYTHING except what is GIVE him from the father
1 corinthians 4;7 for who sees anything different in you?what have you that you did not receive?If then you received it,why do you boast as if it were not a gift?
James1;18 OF HIS OWN WILL he brought us forth,by the word of his truth
I don't doubt God's sovereignty. Everything that happens is done through His will. Satan can't move without God's permission, God will not allow more temptation then we can handle(1 Corinthians 10:13). . But there is such a huge difference between knowing God's rule...and saying that God removes our choice to love Him. This is the way I believe salvation works. We are evil and sinful...God sent His Holy Spirit to move on sinful man's heart. The Holy Spirit is constantly working to bring God's love to our attention. We wouldn't see it on our own, but when the Holy Spirit convicts us we have a choice. Just like we have a choice to enter into sin again after we're saved. There are so many verses of warning.
1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
James 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.
2 Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
Revelation 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
And then there are many verses that say we have to believe, we have to have faith, we have to keep the commandments or God's salvation isn't ours.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say "Come!" And let the one who hears say, "Come!"
And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
Acts 16:31 Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.
John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 11:25-26 I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans 10:9-11 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead,
thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness;
and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Jeremiah 29:13: And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Acts 16:30-31� . . . �Sirs, what must I do to be saved?� And they said, �Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved . . . .� �
John 1:12 �But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name�
Romans 10:13 �For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.�
Matthew 10:32 �Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven�
Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Anyway...Sounds to me like we need to believe to saved...I just don't see how that takes glory from God....it's still His grace...He doesn't have to give it to us. He sees us from afar off...and is just waiting to give us a robe of righteousness when we believe in Him. He sees the future, but He doesn't force it...does that make sense? So anyway...back to Catholics....don't get me wrong. There are many Godly people in the catholic church that are living up to the light God has given them. I believe they will be saved. But during the Catholic induced dark ages, many pagan beliefs were introduced as Christianity.
They worship on sunday. The catholic church admits that they changed the solemnity of the sabbath from the 7th day to the 1st day. Sunday was the pagan day to worship the sun.
�Is not every Christian obliged to sanctify Sunday and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.� James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers (1917 edition), p. 72-73 (16th Edition, p 111; 88th Edition, p. 89).
�For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the [Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible.� Catholic Virginian, October 3, 1947, p. 9, article �To Tell You the Truth.�
�Written by the finger of God on two tables of stone, this Divine code (ten commandments) was received from the Almighty by Moses amid the thunders of Mount Sinai...Christ resumed these Commandments in the double precept of charity--love of God and of the neighbour; He proclaimed them as binding under the New Law in Matthew 19 and in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5)...The (Catholic) Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord�s Day...He (God) claims one day out of the seven as a memorial to Himself, and this must be kept holy...�The Catholic Encyclopaedia, vol. 4, �The Ten Commandments�, 1908 edition by Robert Appleton Company; and 1999 Online edition by Kevin Knight, Imprimatur, John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York.
�Question: How prove you that the church had power to command feasts and holydays?
�Answer: By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of and therefore they fondly contradict themselves by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.
�Question: Have you any other way of proving that the church has power to institute festivals of precept?
�Answer: Had she not such power, she could not a done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; -she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day of the week, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.� Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism On the Obedience Due to the Church, 3rd edition, Chapter 2, p. 174 (Imprimatur, John Cardinal McCloskey, Archbishop of New York).
�Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. �The day of the Lord� was chosen, not from any direction noted in the Scriptures, but from the (Catholic) Church�s sense of its own power...People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.� St. Catherine Church Sentinel, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995.
They destroyed the 2nd commandment about idols. They have many graven images of saints and men that they pray to. They make little idols to bury in their yards, so they can sell their house. Is this from the bible? Isn't the bible the only source of truth?
They claim that their popes and priests have the power to forgive sins...they even sold forgiveness, which is part of what destroyed Martin Luther's faith in the catholic church. There goes the first commandment too.
They believe in a eternal hell and an immortal soul. I don't believe the bible supports those views. However, pagan religions do. The roman pagan religions did.
Most of the catholic holidays have pagan roots. Christmas. Easter. Isn't it odd that the birth of Jesus didn't happen on the 25th of December? Why do we celebrate it on that day then?
In Rome, the Winter Solstice was celebrated many years before the birth of Christ. The Romans called their winter holiday Saturnalia, honoring Saturn, the God of Agriculture. In January, they observed the Kalends of January, which represented the triumph of life over death. This whole season was called Dies Natalis Invicti Solis, the Birthday of the Unconquered Sun. The festival season was marked by much merrymaking. It is in ancient Rome that the tradition of the Mummers was born. The Mummers were groups of costumed singers and dancers who traveled from house to house entertaining their neighbors. From this, the Christmas tradition of caroling was born.
Easter?
Pagan religions in the Mediterranean area had a major seasonal day of religious celebration at or following the Spring Equinox. Cybele, the Phrygian fertility goddess, had a fictional consort who was believed to have been born via a virgin birth. He was Attis, who was believed to have died and been resurrected each year during the period MAR-22 to MAR-25. "About 200 B.C. mystery cults began to appear in Rome just as they had earlier in Greece. Most notable was the Cybele cult centered on Vatican hill ...Associated with the Cybele cult was that of her lover, Attis (the older Tammuz, Osiris, Dionysus, or Orpheus under a new name). He was a god of ever-reviving vegetation. Born of a virgin, he died and was reborn annually. The festival began as a day of blood on Black Friday and culminated after three days in a day of rejoicing over the resurrection." Wherever Christian worship of Jesus and Pagan worship of Attis were active in the same geographical area in ancient times, Christians "used to celebrate the death and resurrection of Jesus on the same date; and pagans and Christians used to quarrel bitterly about which of their gods was the true prototype and which the imitation."
Anyway...I know you already agree with me, but my point is that the catholic church basically wrote a lot of paganism into Christianity. I think the degree that most protestant denominations still follow catholic doctrine is...scary...to say the least. If you have the time, give these studies a look.
