I have talked with / written to some men who made it pretty clear that their former relationship included sleeping with a person. That totally goes against what God expects a Christian to do!!! These men came from this CDFF site!!! I want a man who, even if married before, to show self-control. God forbid that I allow a man to "take me to bed" as a part of our relationship!! Saving ourselves for the one who God chooses for us is going to help us trust our mates, and they, in turn, will be able to trust us more. It has been proven that if a person is promiscuous before marriage, it will carry over into the marriage.
I may be waiting a long time for God's choice; maybe God is helping me to become stronger in the self-control physical part!
And I agree about forgiving past sins, we are in the season of forgiveness and have yet to enter the season of judgement. Jesus is the judge as well as the Lamb who forgives. He dwells in us therefore we are being trained to both judge and forgive.
We are to in a spirit of meekness restore our brother who we overtake in a fault and if he repents we have regained our brother. If they don't repent we break fellowship, deliver them to the enemy to be busted up a bit and let God deal with them.
I believe in waiting for marriage whole heartedly. Yes society is against it for the most part. But that is no excuse to go along with the tradition, or the crowd.
God's word is clear on this subject. Sex outside of marriage is considered adultery in God's eyes. Jesus said on the Sermon on the mount that even looking at someone with lust is committing adultery. That being said, if you truly are trying to follow and please God, then you should wait for marriage.
We should NEVER condemn or judge others for there past however, because legalism is a huge factor in hurting and dividing the church. Only God has the right to judge, and we all should be judging and examining ourselves instead of others.
The problem today is that people get confused with what true love actually is. See the new testament in the bible was written in Greek and the Greeks had more than one word they used for love. See our English language only has one word for it and we throw it around rather cheaply. "I love ice cream" or "I love the lake" or "I love you" or "Jesus loves us" We use the same word but obviously Jesus loving me is in no way the same meaning as my loving ice cream!
In the Greek they had 3 words they used for love. The first is Eros which is where we get our English word erotic from. It is a sexual, lustful, physical attraction type of love. This is a worldly type love and is also the weakest of them all. Physical beauty withers with age, and can be taken from you in an instant. Building relationships off this love is foolish because sooner or later it fails.
The second type of love is phileo love. We get our city name Philadelphia from it. It means brotherly love, or friendship type love. This love is the friendship bond between two people. Although this love is stronger than the Eros love it is still weak, and conditional. Friendships can be broken and lost rather quickly sometimes even between family.
Then there is the greatest love. Agape. Unconditional Christ like love. This word is the word used in most of the bible verses about love. It is the love God intended us to build our marriages off of. It is the love described in 1 Corinthians chapter 13. It is an unfailing unconditional love. It never fails. We need to build relationships off of this love.
The other two loves are conditional and thus fail and fall short of what true love is. That is why there is so much divorce, because the world loves conditionally. As believers we should love unconditionally especially in our marriages and relationships. So dont fall into the same traps as the rest of the world brothers and sisters!!! Lets love and be loved with the agape love instead of the fake counterfeit love that the world operates in! I hope all this helps answer the question!
I'm going to ditto what "That guy" said. I don't think it's right to do it repetativly. When you ask for forgiveness you really have to try hard to resist the temptations. But that being said when people screw up other Christians don't have the right to tell them they are "less" a Christian or shouldn't call themselves Christians just because they have sinned. We have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. None of us have the right to have a holier then thou attitude with anyone. That's all I'm saying:)
Thanks benrdh by the way:)
I think it's very important to discuss this topic because it's being shoved aside way to much I think. Especially with teens in todays society. They think nothing about giving themselves away and it's very very sad.
It's been a while since my last post here, and although I guess you all might see me as non christian for askig for bibical proof against premaritial sex, I still want to loose some word on what has been said up to now.
I cite from KJV
jezcie brought up scripture against premaritial sex:
7th commandment
10th commandment:
Ex 20,14:
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
or Dtn 5, 18:
Neither shalt thou commit adultery.
English is not my mother tungue. If I look up "adultery" it translates in German into something like "breaking marriage". So my first thout is that if there is no marriage, it cannot be broken...
I looked up the Hebrew and Greek words used in the old scriptures, but they lead me no further. My dictionaries even point to the idea that you can only do what is prohibited there with already married or engaged people. So this seems to support my thought that you cannot brake a nonexistent marriage...
It just caught my eye that there are first that commandments to not actually steal goods or the spouse from your next followed later by the clearificatio that you shall not even covet, i.e. desire to do so. So I guess these commandments point in the same direction...
1. Cor 6, 16.18:
What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body.
So the two important words here seem to be harlot and fornication. We all know, hat a harlot is: A woman who will have sex for money. I do fully agree with anyone saying this is against God's will, because it will break her and it is taking advantage of those guys who are weak and feel alone. It is not a good thing to just have sex for the fun of it.
Fornication is a word that leaves me puzzled. There is no definition of what it is supposed to mean.The Greek "porneia" dosn't help any further, and I can not but see tht this must be somthing, that is connected to solely fleshly things. But is premaritial sex solely something fleshly? Can there not be love like in marriage as well? There certainly is not if you change sexual partners like shirts, but this is not what I am talking about. If there is love, and the both become one body without being literally married, and then break up, where is the difference between a couple of which one dies? They have been one flesh, but the surviving partner can find new lov and marry and have sex.
I think the one flesh thing is not something that is absolutely radical, as one can marry again after the partner died. So one is one flesh with two people and that absolutely in accordance to the bible.
I agree that one should not ever have sex with a person thinking of shifting partners later again. But I also think one shoul not kiss under that circumstances. I know Americans are quicker to kiss than Germans, but this is how I think.
Rom 8, 8.13:
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
When is life after the flesh? And when after the Spirit? Where to draw the line? Marriage? And in marriage? Can one have sex without wanting a child out f that intercourse, for whatever reason? Or is sex only to reproduce? I think that life after flesh is if you seek nothing else. But I think sex is more that just carnial fun, and I guess it is not much fun anyhow if there is no real love involved, but I might be wrong on that.
And I do think there can be solely carnial sex inside marriage and sex with love outside marriage, the first being definately wrong an the second, well, I cannot see anything wrong about it up to now.
Hebr 13,4
Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
So what are whoremongers and adulterers? Those who love their partner and share intimate momnts with one another before having gone to the altar? What about kisses? What about holding hands? What about looking in the eyes of your loved ones? Does not all that also bring joy to you? Someone here spoke about pushing the limits? So why not pull the limits? Where is the line? I believe the line is where it becomes a carnial thing, whatever you technically do. But all that is done in real love (read agape) can hardly be wrong in my thought.
Eph 5,2 and Phil 2,3 are connected with the following explaination:
"If we put our partner's needs above our own and consider their spiritual well-being, we'll be compelled to wait for sex. We, like God, will want what's best for them."
If we do not first look for our partner's well-being, both spiritually and physical, we are not to have a partner in my opinion. Because then there is no love, as love seeks not the own advantage.
But why are we compelled to wait for sex? What is so bad about sex that compells us, given that our partner does also want sex?
(If our partner wants to wait, the discussion ends immediately, it would be the opposite of love to push him or her!)
The high song of love is mentioned alongside with the waiting being a test for the love of our partner? Okay, but how long will the test run? If they marry first evening? Okay, that'd be extreme, but let's say they marry after a shorter time? And what about a couple that is together for months and decides after thinking an praying about it t have sex? Where is the real test? How long woul such a test have to run? I do hope that the people on here are not of those who'd hop into bed on the first dates... at least that is by far not what I am talking about.
Negative consequences to deal with! Sin hinders our lives, sure. I absolutely agree. Sin brings nothing but problems. But what is the sin in the mentioned sex outside marriage when the girl gets pregnant and the guy runs away for example? Is the sin the sex? Or is the sin to be found in the lacking love and willingness to take up responsibillities? The same applies to the girl if she is about to have an abortion. I think sin means lacking of love, in any case, for we are told to love one another Jesus says this somewhere in the Gospel of John, I guess you know better where it stands.
How can premaritial sex damage my testimony? It can only damage it among people who do consider it wrong beforehand. But my testimony will aso be considered damaged if I testify to a group of pro choicers teling them that I have another opinion. If there is no reason to see premaritial sex as against God's will, how can it damage the testimony?
And I also do not settle for less than God's perfect will. How do I? If premaritial sex was against God's perfect will, that woul be true. But as I have stated above, I see no reason to think this. Sex is wrong if it is only a carnial lust thing, but this applies inside and outsie marriage.
1. Cor 6, 8-9:
Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Again, fornicators, adulterers and the like. If one of the partners is married or in a relationship, it is of course wrong, because that would make sex a lust thing again. Or if someone is going to pay for it, that wold have nothing to do with love. But this does not speak of marriage here.
Mt 5,28:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Okay, here we have finally a definition! And see what I see? The Lord speaks of lust. It is wrong to just lust after women. There needs to be love to make things right. Or did I get it wrong? If you just want to have her, if you just lust this is adultery. I guess this would even include your own wife!
1. Thes 4,3 speaks of fornication being wrong again, so does Jude 7 and Cl 3,5.
I guess one cou have a long argumet on that, but it would lead nowhere. I jut wante to show that one can understand the bibel passages also in other ways than you do here.
I had up to now had one girl friend. We had sex. And I see nothing wrong about it, because we deeply loved one another. Our love was deep enough to stay friends after breaking up, I am thankful to th Lord for making this possible. We had our pains in breaking up, but our love was deeper.
I do not see how our sex coul possibly have been wrong. We were together for quite a while and coul as well have got married in that time. And then our sex would have been "legal"? Marriage is something worldly. Something that is not made by God, but by men to give the godly institution of partnership a human counterpart to deal with it in legal ways. Adam and Eve never went to a pastor to marry. And even in the old times it has been a legal state thing. It became a church thing ony later. Martin Luther put clear that it is a state thing by declaring that marriage is not a sacrament.
Please don't get me wrong. I am not against marriage at all. And I am not for promiscuity, certainly not. But I am also not a frien of mixing up cultural thoughts (sex belongs into marriage) with Go's will.
If I meet a girl and fall in ove with her, who wants to wait, I have no prblem with that an I woul never push her. I would not even push her to hold hands if she'd be that conservative. I think that this is rather rare, but I want to say this to make that point clear. A partnership will not work if there is no respect for the wishes of the partner. But I woul also not say that this was Gd's will. It would be the will of the girl which I respect, because of my ove to her.
As this is already so long I wanted to say some words about the three kinds of love, ehovaJirah spoke about:
I think desire is not only physical. I think it was Plato who spoke of Eros in connection with philosophy. He said that one needs to have eros for philosophy or something like that. I think eros resembles rather desire than only the physical aspect, as the desire to understand philosophical ideas. The desire to master all that. Aso the desire for the body of the partner, or any body of a person of the desired sex.
I understand philia as somethig that is taking and giving. One still desires, but is also free to give. That is in friendships, where you as think about your friens and do not behave egoistic all along the way.
Finally agape is nothing else than giving. Giving withot ever wanting or demanding to get anything back. This is what we are to be like as christians, not only to our partners, but to everyone. Of course we cannot be that way all along the way, as we all are sinners, but this is what I would consider the will of God.
So if sex is within this agape way of partnership, if sex is giving rather than taking, it cannot be wrong in my thought. And I think this can be true inside as well as outside marriage.
Okay, I think I've said enough. Wonder if anyone would read all this.
But see? Homer See what I see? You say you loved your girlfriend and you slept with her, but why are you not still together? This world is full of lies. Pure lies. The world says its ok to have sex without partaking in the covenant that is marriage, the bible says differently, my experience shows the bible to be true.
Sin will always find a way to justify itself, even if that means twisting scripture around. Marriage is a commitment. If you truly love someone then why not commit?????? And if you arent ready to commit.........then your not ready to have sex.
A relationship is like a carriage that is pulled by multiple horses, you must keep all the horses even with each other, or the carriage will go toppling over and have its direction thrown off course. If one of your horses is a quarter mile down the road ahead of the rest of the horses and another horse is falling behind, you can hardly say you have a properly functioning mode of transportation here. and none of your horses are even with each other. Same with a relationship, if the sex horse is at the end of the track but the commitment horse has barely left the gate, then the carriage that is your relationship is out of balance and most likely will go off course or even crash and burn.
Anyone who claims that it is ok to ignore god's institution of marriage is a false teacher. We must take extra care to make sure we dont twist scripture to say what our flesh wants it to say, but to always seek truth. Marriage is a covenant. bottom line. God made it. He made the marriage covenant. And if you read your bible at all you know that God takes covenants very very seriously.
You really think we'd still be together if we had married? I must say that I doubt this.
You have not been in this relationship, so please don't talk about horses you haven't seen.
I see love as a gift from Go, and as I have experienced it, He gives and takes. I am not to judge what God does, but I can judge what I felt and how comitted I was.
So if you need to say I'd twist scripture, go ahead. I wish that you will always have the only right understanding of the scripture.
I dont claim to have the ONLY right understanding of scripture but I do have an understanding that nearly all christians will agree with in this matter. God himself instituted the covenant of marriage in Genesis chapter 2. Marriage is meant to be a life long, never ending,Godly companionship between ONE man and ONE woman.
When you study the covenant of marriage there is so much symbolism that has so much meaning. Even sex holds important meaning. The bible says the" two will become one flesh" through the act of sex, well you cant be of one flesh, with more than one person!!! Sex is actually the act that "seals the deal" so to speak in the marriage. Jesus said to not let any man undo what God has put together in marriage. Obviously marriage is very serious in the eyes of the Lord. And so is sex.
It is not something that can casually be done without consequences, and we know from the book of Romans that the wages of sin is death. All sin brings death. If you want to know if something is a sin ask yourself if the thing questioned can kill you. Even sins like envy, greed and lying cause stress on the body that wears it down and can eventually kill you. It IS scientifically proven. So can sex outside of marriage kill you? YES it can. AIDS kill people. Hepititis KILLS people. In fact there are many STDS that can kill. And it is proven that those who choose to go about having sex with more than just there ONE marriage partner are at high risk for contracting one of these diseases. This one point alone should convince you that it is a sin, because nothing that is good causes death.
ANYONE who says that sex without marriage is perfectly fine IS teaching FALSE DOCTRINE. Plain and simple. The bible has way way too many scriptures that will back this point. There is a reason people have held to this view for thousands of years, and there is a reason that many who dont live to this view catch diseases that ultimately kill them.
Now I do not like having to call people out, but as a pastor/teacher it is my duty, no matter how unpopular the teaching is, and I will never back down from that. Having said that I hope that you understand that I am not attacking what your saying, for the sake of my being confrontational or rude, but rather for the sake of biblical teaching.
While I will agree with you that I was not there to see your one particular relationship I HAVE had a few of my own, and have also seen so many many others fail, due to the "sex horse" being so far ahead of the rest of the relationship.
Another thing you are absolutely correct in saying that only God can give the gift of true agape love which is unconditional and perfect. He does not, however just take our love away EVER. That is not how MY God works. So when we find ourselves with love failing, then it means that somewhere, our love was conditional, and not trully unconditional or true. Many fall into that trap. Why? because of sin, because of lies, because of the enemy satan, because of false love, because people with hardened hearts refuse to listen to the truth, because of False Doctrines and teachers.
The scripture is clear homer. Do with it what you will. Live how you want, you dont have to answer to me. You only have to answer to God and yourself. But I would be careful teaching others that it is ok to go about sleeping with people they aren't committed to. Jesus warned that it would be better to never be born than to lead others astray. Anyways I have said my piece. I hope it has helped. If it hasnt that sorrows me, but only the Holy Spirit can convict us, and I trust that if you are trully following God and seeking His will, that the Spirit will show you these things in due time. Just remember and be careful, we have a cunning and deceitful enemy, and sin will always try to find a way, it will always try to justify itself, but it is still sin and must be resisted and dealt with.
First of al I think I understand what you mean, and I guess I am closer to you than you might think.
It is true that we have a dangerous enemy, so we have to be careful. But I also believe that as christians we do not have to be afraid at the same time. Watch out for Satan, but not fear him, for God is with us.
Fear pulls us down into some kind of lawness, so we try to follow strict laws in order to stay away from Satan.
This is a hard question to deal with and I know I have to be careful with what I say to not lead people on the wrong path. Please also take into account that English is not my mother tungue...
I want to pick up some points of what you said and confront them with other scripture:
"Marriage is meant a life long companionship between one man an one woman."
What about Jacob? We know of his marriage to two women, Lea and Rachel, and he had sex even with their slaves/servants (I forgot their names, sorry).
I do not remember one part of scripture that condemns what Jacob did.
I do not say that it is okay to have many wives, but I wonder how you deal with such passages of the bible.
Same applies to the one flesh thing. Jacob was one flesh with 4 women. But what is after one of the partners in a one man one woman relationship dies. Are they not one flesh then any more? How does this one flesh idea fit to the life long idea. Wouldn't it be more logical to proclaim it eternal?
I never said it would be okay to go about and sleep with anyone out there. I never said that sex was okay "just for fun". There needs to be commitment, that is not the question. The question is whether there is a need of a special ceremony, held in church or in a state office (we have to do both in Germany, don't know about the US).
All I say is that if there are two people who truely love one another and want to stay together for life, I do not see anyting that woud hinder them from having sex. Because there is commitment. The thing is, you never know how true the love really is, sometimes you aren't even sure about your own feelings, right. And sometimes you think there is love when there isn't.
Man can fail. So yes, I was in a relationship and maybe there was not the kind of love that it needed to have, and we had sex. But I also know that we both knew or thought we knew that we loved one another, so if that relationship failed it would as well have failed if we'd had that litte paper that says we are married.
And God didn't take the agape, we are still very good friends, there has nothing changed on the agape level, at least on my side. But again, you have not been there. I didn't think this could happen until it happened. Neither did my ex. It's a thing between us and God.
If all that can kill was sin as you wrote, then everything is sin: You say sex is sin because it can kill through AIDS. This is also true within marriage. If one partner is infected (and there are "moral" ways to get infected, like in hospital etc), the other one will be, too. But also work would be sin, because you can die in an accident in the factory or office. It woud be a sin to eat, because who knows whether this meal you eat isn't poisonous due to some mistake in the kitchen? It would be sin to cross a street, as you can be ran over by a car...
I do not think it is so easy. And I do nt think that certain deeds are sin. I believe that sin is rather a state of being then a certain deed, thus I don't like speaking of sins, as there is only one sin: Be selfrighteous before God.
If I have faith in God, I get his righteousness, through faith His righteousness makes me righteous, because no other can do this. If I have no faith in God, i.e. I am not in the state of faith but in the state of sin, then I try to bring up my own righteousness, to show that my own works make me righteous before God, which is absurd.
This idea of being capable of leading a good life myself, which is based in the state of sin, of turning away from God, leads me to o bad deeds. And this is the way Satan works: he tells us to be very careful, he makes us afraid, so we try very hard (with ever more persona effort and ever less faith) to meet some rules. And more rules, and more rules, and Stan neer shuts up: There's always more we can do. This way he draws us from God without us recognising it. And finaly we are lost, alone, turned from God and feeling miserable. Halleluyah that we can always turn back to the Lord, n matter how far we went from Him.
The more faith there is, the more trust in God, the less fear can be there, and the more fear, the less faith.
So let us be trustful and faithfu in the Lord, who puts all things straight, and let us not fear of the enemy, who has already lost the war 2000 years ago. We won, he lost, halleluyah.
You are right, we should never fear satan, for the scripture says, "he that is in us, is stronger than he who is the world" , Jesus defeated satan, so we should not fear him, but we should be wise as serpents and gentle as doves. We should never underestimate our adversary. He can still cause a mess, but only when we allow him to.
As far as jacob having multiple wives, I believe he did so for two main reasons. One was historical. In that period of time it was common for a man to have a wife and concubines. That was society in that day. God certainly didnt set this trend, because he provided Adam with ONE wife, which we know was eve. God did not provide adam with a wife AND concubines.
Also Jacob knew about the covenant. You must remember what Jacob must have been thinking. He was thinking " how can me and one wife produce enough children to become as numerous as the sand in the sea?" The patriachs were trying to "help" the covenant along through there flesh. Just as Abraham did with his concubine which produced Ishmael. God did not honor abrahams effort though and Ishmael did not receive the blessing. God held the blessing for Isaac the son of Sarah, Abraham's TRUE wife. God honored the true marriage.
I believe God meant it to be just one wife for life, regardless of what the patriarchs did in the past. In fact I know so. When Jesus was confronted with the question about divorce, he said that Moses allowed divorce because of the hard hearts of the people not because it was Gods will. God intended marriage to be binding and for life. Not eternally though, for the bible says "that in heaven we will be as the angels and not given in marriage"
Marriage is meant to be a symbol of what is coming when we are finally united with the Lord. That is why the church is referred to as Christ's bride in the bible. Marriage is also meant to get us through this life, for " it is not good for man to be alone"
As far as the sin thing, no eating is not a sin, if you eat right, and eating cant kill you unless you abuse food in some way. People who die from food though HAVE committed a sin. Gluttony is a sin, also Idolatry is also a sin, and often times food can become an idol in one's life, just as it did for Eli and his sons in 1 Samuel. Yes the world has danger in it, and walking across the street is not a sin, unless you broke the law doing so, because the bible tells us to follow the laws of men. But this world is cursed BECAUSE of sin so all danger ultimately comes from it. Sin brings death either physically or spiritually, plain and simple.
As far as contracting AIDS from a hospital, it is unlikely to happen, considering the measures they take to detect blood borne pathogens before they donate it. You will find that 99.9% of people with Aids got it through sinful sex out of marriage, sharing illegal drugs, or because their parents sinned and passed it to thier children. We see death and pain in this world every where we turn, and it is all because of sin. The wages of sin IS death, but the gift of God is eternal life. I love that scripture, because it teaches that there is nothing good about sin, it always brings death, but we still have hope in Christ Jesus.
I will also add that we could defeat Aids for good, if we as a race held to the truth God has given us about marriage, Aids has been spread world wide through millions of immoral acts. I believe Aids is a direct result of our sin.
Also one more thing homer, I agree you dont have to have a piece of paper from the government to be married. All that matters is that you are married in the eyes of God. But remember marriage IS still a covenant, and covenants require a three witnesses, to be valid, even God holds to that rule, using the father, the Son, and the Spirit to witness the covenants he makes with us. I hope this all helps whoever reads it, God bless!
