As a Catholic, I believe that artificial contraception is morally unacceptable. There are several reasons why I hold this belief, but I can get to those as time goes by.
My question is: how do most Protestants and evangelicals feel about the issue? In other words, why do you find it acceptable (assuming some of you do - I recognize that not all Protestants practice birth control)?
And I will apologize a little. I do have a problem(maybe several) with the catholic church and I let it get to me. When the pope sells his gold rings and his basilica to feed the poor, then I will recognize that church as charitable. I just can't help but look at all the extravagance and pomp and watch it bury Christ in shame. It's like a rock star campaigning against world hunger and donating $50,000 while He sits on $50,000,000. How committed is he? How compassionate does he feel? How much more should a church that is trying to emulate Christ be doing? Anyway...it's not the individuals in the church. I know many wonderful Catholics. My grandmother is one, my Aunt is one, my father was one before he became an Adventist, but you guys need to have a talk with your flamboyantly extravagant leaders.
God's commands will always be his commands, no matter what's changed in the world, nothing God has said has ever really changed, hence if it was done back then, it should be done now.
Helping children that are here is good, adoption is great, but it's God's design to continue having children, whether or not you think the world is fit, overpopulated, whatever it may be. It's not right for someone to tell another human being they shouldn't have children because the world is in a bad place right now, and we should look upon the world with uncertainty of the future and fear. It is good to trust and have faith in God's sovereignty and grace, that's who he is. He creates the way.
Being single and serving God is different from being married, if you're meant to be single and serve the lord, then that's you're calling, and God hasn't called you to enter into a marriage, some people have the gift of singleness, some don't. But if you are married, then it's okay to have children if you want to.
You should have just told me you were Adventist from the beginning. Considering your church sees mine as the wh-ore of Babylon, the polemics make perfect sense! *Laughs*.
You write, �And as far as God's "command" goes, that was before sin entered the world.�
So it�s no longer binding? Can you show me where, in scripture, God says, �Hey, you know that command about being fruitful? You can forget about it now.�
You also state, �My personal belief is that I would rather help as many children as I can that are already here, than bring more into the world to suffer. But we'll see what happens.�
On the one hand, I want to genuinely applaud you for your desires both to help children, as well as eliminate suffering. The problem with your position is the means by which you�re choosing to accomplish those ends (especially the latter).
Here�s an ethical principle for you: never do something that�s evil in order to prevent another evil. The fact that children suffer is evil. We don�t, however, eliminate their suffering by committing another evil: namely, artificially preventing children from being born in the first place. The ends don�t justify the means. We eliminate suffering in licit; not illicit ways.
�Anyway...show me in the bible where God says not having children is a sin and I'll change my beliefs, but as far as I know, the bible is silent about it.�
I already have. Commanding us to be fruitful and multiply is the positive way of saying, �It�s wrong not to have kids.�
And lastly, �Paul says to stay single if we want to serve God better. Does that contradict what God said about "be fruitful and multiply?�
Not at all. Some people live singly for the sake of the kingdom (Mt 19:12). I know this will be difficult for your Protestant mind to understand, but it�s not always either/or. Sometimes it�s both/and. There�s no contradiction between the notion of some people being called to singleness (with the disciplines and duties it entails), and other people being called to a married vocation (with the disciplines and duties it entails).
Don�t sweat it. As long as you know my polemics are in good fun, it�s fine.
�When the pope sells his gold rings and his basilica to feed the poor, then I will recognize that church as charitable.�
Coming from a denomination that has an annual operating cost of 34 million for its world headquarters (which makes up 20% of its annual revenue), I�d say that�s a bit of the old pot calling the kettle black.
�I just can't help but look at all the extravagance and pomp and watch it bury Christ in shame. It's like a rock star campaigning against world hunger and donating $50,000 while He sits on $50,000,000. How committed is he?�
The pope actually owns nothing. But you wouldn�t have learned that from all the propaganda you�ve been fed. It costs money to run the largest church, and largest charitable organization, in the world. Do you realize that there are more Catholics in the world (1.5 billion) than all other Christian denominations combined?
�How compassionate does he feel?�
Considering he�s dedicated his entire life to preaching the gospel, I�d say he�s pretty compassionate. How can you be so judgmental?
Oh no problem, I volunteer them too easily, I will probably be a lot more guarded next time I post. I don't know what I think about contraception or any of that in general, though, John. You probably have a lot more of an opinion on that. I don't know enough of the bible to know how the Lord views that, and I won't pretend I know.
You're right, MsMarvel. I really didn't mean it that way though, I know God's commands never change, but I do believe a lot of things have changed. How about God's prescribed diet in the garden? That changed. The roles men and women had? That changed. There was no death before sin, that changed. Many things in the natural world changed when sin entered. All of them going against God's original plan. I just think that to say we should be living an edenic life in a sinful world is impossible, and claiming one scripture as a new law we have to follow is a little far-fetched. I did make the remarks that it was my own personal belief about birth/adoption and I did ask for more bible verses to support the view that contraceptives are wrong. One is not enough in my opinion. Especially one that was before the entrance of sin. I think we should always a bit suspicious when someone grabs one verse and starts building a doctrine on it and claiming everyone else is sinning by not following it. I haven't had a need to use a contraceptive yet, so you could say I'm still forming an opinion on it. Maybe God will change my mind when the time comes.
1.5 billion Catholics?? "And the whole world wandered after the beast" :winksmile: Polemics!:laugh:
Anyway...I'd say that for being such a small denomination Adventists do ok as far as helping people. I do like to boast about it a bit. Catholics definitely take the cake, but they are also like...70 times larger....with their own country....and 1/8 of the worlds population...probably thanks to their stance on birth control:laugh:.
"The pope actually owns nothing. But you wouldn�t have learned that from all the propaganda you�ve been fed. It costs money to run the largest church, and largest charitable organization, in the world. Do you realize that there are more Catholics in the world (1.5 billion) than all other Christian denominations combined?"
Well...the pope is the figure head so I applied it to him, but you're right, it's the entire administrative part of the catholic church. My point is, I see lowly humble priests denying themselves a bed to sleep on and even their own food to help the sick and the poor, and then you look at the glory and riches the Catholic church has amassed and you have to ask what's going on.
The Catholic Church owns a lot of art, and a lot of property. And you seem to be implying that those possessions could be sold and used to better serve the poor. Thankfully, you don�t know what you�re talking about, otherwise, the poor would end up getting less help than they�re currently getting. How so?
With respect to the art, a few points are worth mentioning. First, the Vatican charges people to view tour its art galleries. That means the church � the largest charitable organization in the world � gets ongoing revenue from its art collection. Sell the art, lose a large source of yearly income that is going to help the poor. Second, the art collections are largely public. Sell the art, and a huge portion of it goes into private collections, never to be seen or enjoyed by the public again.
Let�s actually take your proposition seriously for a second. Let�s say the Vatican sells 10 billion dollars in art, with the intent of taking that money and using it to serve the poor. Immediately, the high demand for medical supplies and food causes the prices to go through the roof (supply and demand). The result is that the Catholic Church ends up being able to buy less with its one-time surge in revenue. True, the poor might see a modicum of relief in the short-term, but they are going to suffer more in the long-term, once things settle down and the Church no longer has revenue from its art galleries. Do you see how utterly stupid your proposal is? It�s beyond ludicrous.
Now, with respect to property, yes, the Church owns land. What�s on that land though? Churches! Why on earth would the Church sell it�s land? So it can cease existing? Where would the parishioners celebrate the liturgy?
I don�t mind having these kinds of discussions, but we should probably start a separate thread for them, as this is getting way off topic.
By the way, if you want to do a more public debate I�d be happy to discuss the errors of Adventism on another thread. Just let me know.
You guys are a barrel full of laughs. I will add my 2 cents here. Soloman being wise and in his youth served God he was given great riches by God.having riches does not make you a bad person. Some are just blessed.
As for birth control, I pointed out my views very gently.
Also, God does give us wisdom.If we can only afford 2 childern that is what we should have. Only have what you can handle.God gave us a brain to make wise decsions.
Ben, you can see my point here I hope.As I have written with tack.I am for birth control. Somebody can get fixed.
