Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 2 Feb, 2012 11:28 PM
Thanks to a question about divorce and remarriage posted on another thread, I felt the need to address those on this site who may be suffering from the weight of guilt and condemnation heaped on them because of their reasons for divorce.
I wrote the following article, "The Stone Thrower", based on actual instances that happened on this site. If you are one of those who have been ostracized by others for having an "Unbiblical Divorce," please take the time to read. May it minister to your heart.
The Stone Thrower
I want to touch on a subject today that has long been regarded in Christendom as taboo . . . and that is . . . DIVORCE. Mention that word around some Christians and their hackles suddenly go up on the back of their neck. They pull out their proverbial stones ready to put to death anyone who they think has been un-biblically divorced. And to my shame, I was one of them�a stone thrower.
We all know the story of the woman caught in adultery in John 8:3-11. The scribes and Pharisees (the religious self-righteous) had arrested this woman and dragged her before Jesus. One has to wonder how these Pharisees caught such a woman "in the very act" of adultery. How convenient for them. It's amazing the depths of depravity the self-righteous will sink to in order to defend their religious arguments. Did they have the paparazzi spy on her to get some juicy pictures for the whole world to see?
At any rate, they dragged this poor woman in front of Jesus and proudly proclaimed, "Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?" (John 8:5)
Zowie!! These men can quote the Word of God . . . at least the parts that suit their fancy.
I like our Lord's reaction. "But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear" (John 8:6b).
Don't you just love it when someone ignores you . . . especially when you're trying to win an argument? But the self-righteous rarely lie down without a fight, and those religious Pharisees were determined to prove that they had the "truth." So they continued pestering Jesus, knowing that the Law of Moses was on their side. It's not a good idea to pester Jesus, especially when it comes to "pointing a finger" at someone.
"So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, 'He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.' And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. Then those who heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning from the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst" (John 8:7-9).
This introductory story of the woman caught in adultery has a purpose: I wanted you to have a glimpse of the mentality of a "stone thrower." They are usually self-righteous, ready to condemn, and can quote the Word of God. Ouch . . . I just described me.
I had a clear cut answer for the reasons one might give to justify divorce which I thought was quite Biblical. And in my mind, there was only one reason . . . "But I say to you, that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except for sexual immorality, causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery" (Matthew 5:32). There you have it�plain and simple. Who could argue with such a statement? It is the Word of God! I thought I had the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth . . . yet the truth is . . . I was ignorant of the ways of God. "For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment" (James 2:13).
And it was in my ignorance to God's ways that I threw stones at the divorced ladies on a Christian dating site some time ago. As a widower, I was on this site looking for a prospective wife. I was so appalled at the amount of women who were divorced on this site whose reasons for separating from their husbands did not match my view of scripture. In order to protect myself from these "contaminated souls," I purposely wrote something in my profile for those that I would consider as wife material: "You may be single, widowed, or divorced (must be for Biblical reasons only)."
When I would communicate with these divorced ladies, I would immediately ask them to provide details on the reason for their divorce. If they could not give me an answer of infidelity as the reason for their divorce, then I considered them unmarriageable. Yet God has a way of grabbing His child's attention when that child is in error.
One of the ladies on this dating site told me her story of divorce after I demanded it. Her husband was deep in bondage to pornography and had no interest whatsoever in repentance. The man had not physically hopped into bed with another woman, and so in my self-righteousness, I condemned the poor wife for wanting to opt out on the marriage. And the "stones" that I threw created fresh wounds in her heart while she recounted those painful memories of her husband's infidelity as he lusted after porn. According to Jesus' own words, her husband WAS GUILTY of adultery: "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5:28). I ignored that scripture and concentrated only on Matthew 5:32. She lashed out at me, saying that she was glad Jesus did not condemn her even if I did. I have to admit, I was shaken by her story which moved me to tears.
Then there was another lady whom I demanded to give an account for her divorce. I threw "stones" at her as well when she could not give me a reason of infidelity for her separation. In bitter anger, she struck back at me, stating how her husband had broken her nose and physically abused her. I ignored the scripture which reads, "But God has called us to peace" (1 Corinthians 7:15b) and concentrated again on Matthew 5:32. However, her story bothered me very much just like the other woman's.
I began to seek God earnestly. These were only two of the many ladies who shared with me their heartbreaking stories of divorce. There were so many reasons given for divorce and none of them fell under sexual immorality (fornication) as I saw it. I sincerely asked the Lord to open my eyes. Was there any scriptural evidence to support these women's choices to opt out of a marriage other than infidelity? Yes, there was.
God led me to Matthew 19:3-12. The Pharisees were looking for a reason to trap Jesus in His words. Their previous scheme had not worked with the woman caught in adultery. However, if they could just get Jesus to say something contradictory to the Law of Moses, then they could brand Him as a heretic. So they asked Jesus this question, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?" (Matthew 19:3b)
Jesus' answer was, and still is, God's original intention for marriage: "Have you not read . . . the two shall become one flesh? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate" (Matthew 19:5b-6).
The Pharisees did not like His answer. For Jesus had taken them right back to Genesis before there ever was a Moses or a Law of Moses so that they could hear what GOD SAYS about marriage. Yet the stiff-necked Pharisees persisted with another question: "Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?" (Matthew 19:7)
Jesus responds, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so" (Matthew 19:8).
The self-righteous Pharisees were using the Law of Moses as an excuse to bail out on marriages for any flippant reason. And because of this, the Lord had some very strong words for them. "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery" (Matthew 19:9).
I can just hear the stone throwers shouting, "See, I told you . . . it's right there in the word . . . 'sexual immorality!'"
Wait a minute. Like Paul Harvey, let's hear "the rest of the story" before jumping to any conclusions. After verse 9 comes verse 10. Even Jesus' disciples, which would include us, were amazed at the words of Jesus. "His disciples said to Him, 'If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry'" (Matthew 19:10). Yeah, I can see their point. If sexual immorality (fornication) is the only reason for divorce, then perhaps we are better off not getting married.
But look at Jesus' response to his own disciples in verse 11. It stands to reason that if the disciples' statement was true, then Jesus would have said something to affirm it as such. He does not!
"But He said to them, 'All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given'" (Matthew 19:11).
What saying? The saying in verse 9 of course. NOT ALL can accept the saying that fornication is the ONLY reason for divorce.
Now notice that Jesus goes on to explain what He meant with the following verse:
"For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother's womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it" (Matthew 19:12).
What did Jesus mean by this? He tells us that three different men all became eunuchs for different reasons. One was born a eunuch, another was made a eunuch by men, and still another made himself that way for the kingdom of heaven. They all became eunuchs for different reasons, but who is to say which eunuch is "God approved"? God accepted them all. That's the point!
Likewise, there are many reasons someone might seek a divorce: physical and verbal abuse from a spouse . . . being married to an unbeliever who makes life a literal hell . . . marital unfaithfulness . . . the stress of being married to an alcoholic for 23 years . . . or living with a pornographer who refuses to repent. Which one of these reasons for divorce is "God approved"? That's the point Jesus was making. Just as the eunuchs were acceptable to God regardless of how they became a eunuch, so also is a woman acceptable to God who seeks to be free from an abusive husband, even if infidelity is not involved. You and I cannot see in the heart of that abused person . . . but God can. For God has called them to peace.
And the church has done more harm counselling emotionally and physically battered women to stay in a relationship citing Matthew 5:32 "except for sexual immorality" as the only just cause for divorce. Women have actually committed suicide and murder under the stress of remaining in an abusive situation because their legalistic church counseled them to do so.
You may have heard of the case in the U.S. where a lady killed her husband (a pastor) who had been abusing her for years. God had called her to peace . . . but she never knew it, and one day she snapped. The evidence of abuse was so overwhelming that the courts found this woman not guilty of murder by reason of insanity.
I certainly do not want to imply that people should take their marriage so lightly as to divorce for every whim and fancy. I would not condone that, and neither does the Word of God. Every marriage will have its share of problems which can be worked out with God's help by two committed individuals. Yet there are some women, especially those suffering physical and mental abuse, who have reached the tipping point of no return; and the only thing they can do to preserve their sanity is to get out of that marriage. And ultimately, it is to the Lord they answer to, not you or me. He has called them to peace.
After God opened my eyes to the truth of scripture, I contacted those ladies on the dating site who I had thrown "stones" at and apologized profusely. I was truly grieved that I had been so self-righteous and blind, wounding those precious sisters for whom Christ died.
Now back to the story that I began with. The "stone throwers" had already dropped their rocks and left the scene with a guilty conscience, leaving Jesus alone with the adulterous woman.
"He said to her, 'Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?'"
"She said, 'No one, Lord.'"
"And Jesus said to her, 'Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more'" (John 8:10b-11).
HALLELUJAH�MERCY TRIUMPHS OVER JUDGMENT!!!
Blessings in Christ Jesus,
Paul Janz
(All Scripture quotations are taken from the Holy Bible, New King James Version.)
"The Stone Thrower" Copyright � 2010 by Paul Janz.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 17 Jun, 2012 01:54 PM
BobBobbins says, "Where is this verse in the Bible that states these as exceptions?"
"But He said to them, 'All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given'" (Matthew 19:11)
"neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks" (Ephesians 5:4). And where in the Bible, BobBobbins does it say when humorous talk becomes foolish talk and joking becomes coarse jesting? Your interpretation of foolish talk will no doubt be different from mine. That is why we have the Holy Spirit to convict our conscience when we step out of line.
"in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works" (1Timothy 2:9-10).
Now, BobBobbins, do tell all the women on this site what constitutes modest apparel . . .a dress down to the floor, a dress down to their ankles, or a dress going 1 foot 6 inches past the knees. Now tell them to throw out their jewelry and their gold wedding band and their diamond engagement ring as women who profess godliness. And also supply your address and phone number, so that they can contact you and give you a piece of their mind. :rolleyes:
There are no exact details given in scripture for what constitutes modest apparel. That is why we have the Holy Spirit to convict our conscience as individuals when we step out of line.
A man who looks lustfully after a woman is an adulterer according to Jesus' words: "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5:28). You do not have to hop into bed and have actual sex with another woman to be an adulterer in God's eyes. Therefore any woman who has such a husband has every right to divorce him, unless he repents.
BobBobbins says, "NOTICE: Does he accept a truce? Does he offer forgiveness? Does he show any humility whatsoever? Does he offer his own apology?? What does he do? He demands that Singer must bow to his terms in order to receive the kingdom ( Paul's respect)"
Peter denied Jesus publicly 3 times. Jesus demanded Peter confess Him publicly 3 times.(John 21:15-17) Singer4u maligned me publicly. He needs to make a public apology. I was testing Singer4u to see if his apology was sincere. And just like your phony olive-branch offering, BobBobbins, the readers soon discovered the truth.
BobBobbins says, "This is an attempt to build an honest understanding through extension of an olive branch." Then BobBobbins follows with this statement: "Now he (Paul) takes a most haughty and prideful position - he can not be bothered to even address such lowly and ridiculous people such as Singer and I" . . . all I can say is you have a funny way of extending an olive branch. Perhaps you meant poison ivy?
"He does not say that I have misinterpreted the word of God." (you have) "but merely his articles. However, he does not show how I have done so." . . .really?
BobBobbins and Singer4u. There's really nothing more to be said to you that has not already been said. So I will continue to repeat it until you hopefully get the message.
So BobBobbins and Singer4u, you have been weighed in the balances and found wanting. Your accusations are unfounded and your interpretations of my article incorrect. Stone throwers all have something in common: They are usually self-righteous, ready to condemn, and can quote the Word of God. They boast in the keeping of the letter of the law while ignoring the weightier matters of justice, mercy and faith. And besides all this, they have one other notable characteristic . . . they are hypocrites. Matthew 23:23-28.
I have been FALSELY accused by you both, implying that I said Jesus sinned. I never said Jesus sinned. YOU DID! You made the ASSUMPTION that Jesus would have sinned if He had broken the Sabbath--I DID NOT. All I said was Jesus broke the Sabbath. Then you drew out your proverbial stones and said the following:
BobBobbins says, "Jesus never broke the sabbath. If he had done so, he would not have been able to fulfill the law. Your salvation could not have occurred. I am not sure where you get such ridiculous ideas. That is completely absurd and totally false."
My response: Absurd and totally false? . . .Really? "Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said God was His Father" (John 5:18). According to the apostle John, who wrote that scripture under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . .Jesus broke the Sabbath.
Singer4u says, "Paul and Goldenfaith both said in their writings on this forum that Yahushua broke Sabbath. That is impossible! You two should know better than that and to say it is total heresy!!! YOU ARE SAYING HE SINNED!"
My response: heresy? . . .really? "Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said God was His Father" (John 5:18). According to the apostle John, who wrote that scripture under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . .Jesus broke the Sabbath.
It is very clear in the Word of God that Jesus BROKE the Sabbath. It also says in the Word of God that Jesus NEVER sinned. I have no problem with both scriptures. It is you, Singer4u and BobBobbins, who have exalted yourselves above the Word of God to add your own interpretation to John 5:18. You both claim that Jesus could not have broken the Sabbath. Since when does your word override God's Word? You claim to be defenders of the Word, yet you are woefully ignorant of it.
"And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, 'Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!'"
But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him:
"how he entered the house of God and ate the showbread which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?
"Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?
"Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple.
"But if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' you would have not condemned the guiltless.
"For the Son of Man is LORD even of the Sabbath." (Matthew 12:2-8)
Oh yes, Jesus broke the Sabbath, but He never sinned. He was WORKING on the Sabbath healing people, but He never sinned, for He was doing exactly what the Father told Him to do. JESUS IS LORD even of the Sabbath.
And now in regards to Singer4u and BobBobbins adamant stand on the reasons for divorce. Both of you have ignored Jesus' Word spoken in Matthew 19:11:
"But He said to them, 'All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given'"
You both ignore Jesus' Word spoken in Matthew 19:11 and quote only Matthew 19:9. Hypocrites! Is Jesus' Word spoken in verse 11 any less anointed than verse 9? You blind guides, you strain out a gnat and swallow a camel. Jesus said, ALL CANNOT ACCEPT the saying that fornication is the only reason for divorce, 'but only those to whom it has been given.'"
So Singer4u and BobBobbins accept that fornication is the only reason for divorce. Good for you. That's between you and God. Jesus said "ALL CANNOT ACCEPT THIS SAYING." And whether you like it or not, Singer4u and BobBobbins, the LORD JESUS makes it clear that He accepts other believers who have views on divorce contrary to yours.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 17 Jun, 2012 02:03 PM
Paul,
Your hatred is so blinding that you can not read the words on the page.
Bob said and I quote: " For the record, I grew up in a legalist Baptist church where they boldly applied their own laws and rules, such as women should not wear pants, men should not have facial hair, etc. That is legalism. Binding someone to laws that are NOT laws. "
Paul's response and I quote: " Now, BobBobbins, do tell all the women on this site what constitutes modest apparel . . .a dress down to the floor, a dress down to their ankles, or a dress going 1 foot 6 inches past the knees. Now tell them to throw out their jewelry and their gold wedding band and their diamond engagement ring as women who profess godliness. And also supply your address and phone number, so that they can contact you and give you a piece of their mind.
There are no exact details given in scripture for what constitutes modest apparel. That is why we have the Holy Spirit to convict our conscience as individuals when we step out of line."
NOTICE: I said legalism creates its own laws such as "women not wearing pants and men not having facial hair" These are not commands from the Word but are man made. I do not support such legalism.
NOTICE: Paul, in his blindness, tries to get me to do exactly what I just said I do not agree with - that is make up rules and ordinances that are not stated in such specific terms in scripture.
Followed with more sarcasm - "supply your name and address" etc.
SUMMARY: What is Paul's case here? Did I make any comments anywhere about what a woman should or should not wear? Where are these comments?? Paul in effect says "Bob go make up some rules" Paul, I just said, I grew up in a church that did that and I do not agree with it.
You need to lay down your anger and your hatred and take the time to read what is actually said.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 17 Jun, 2012 02:18 PM
BobBobbins says, "Where is this verse in the Bible that states these as exceptions?"
"But He said to them, 'All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given'" (Matthew 19:11)
"neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks" (Ephesians 5:4). And where in the Bible, BobBobbins does it say when humorous talk becomes foolish talk and joking becomes coarse jesting? Your interpretation of foolish talk will no doubt be different from mine. That is why we have the Holy Spirit to convict our conscience when we step out of line.
"in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works" (1Timothy 2:9-10).
Now, BobBobbins, do tell all the women on this site what constitutes modest apparel . . .a dress down to the floor, a dress down to their ankles, or a dress going 1 foot 6 inches past the knees. Now tell them to throw out their jewelry and their gold wedding band and their diamond engagement ring as women who profess godliness. And also supply your address and phone number, so that they can contact you and give you a piece of their mind. :rolleyes:
There are no exact details given in scripture for what constitutes modest apparel. That is why we have the Holy Spirit to convict our conscience as individuals when we step out of line.
BobBobbins says, "Where is this verse in the Bible that states these as exceptions?"
A man who looks lustfully after a woman is an adulterer according to Jesus' words: "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5:28). You do not have to hop into bed and have actual sex with another woman to be an adulterer in God's eyes. Therefore any woman who has such a husband, has every right to divorce him, unless he repents.
BobBobbins says, "NOTICE: Does he accept a truce? Does he offer forgiveness? Does he show any humility whatsoever? Does he offer his own apology?? What does he do? He demands that Singer must bow to his terms in order to receive the kingdom ( Paul's respect)"
Peter denied Jesus publicly 3 times. Jesus demanded Peter confess Him publicly 3 times.(John 21:15-17) Singer4u maligned me publicly. He needs to make a public apology. I was testing Singer4u to see if his apology was sincere. And just like your phony olive-branch offering, BobBobbins, the readers soon discovered the truth.
BobBobbins says, "This is an attempt to build an honest understanding through extension of an olive branch." Then BobBobbins follows with this statement: "Now he (Paul) takes a most haughty and prideful position - he can not be bothered to even address such lowly and ridiculous people such as Singer and I" . . . all I can say is you have a funny way of extending an olive branch. Perhaps you meant poison ivy?
"He does not say that I have misinterpreted the word of God." (you have) "but merely his articles. However, he does not show how I have done so." . . .really?
BobBobbins and Singer4u. There's really nothing more to be said to you that has not already been said. So I will continue to repeat it until you hopefully get the message.
So BobBobbins and Singer4u, you have been weighed in the balances and found wanting. Your accusations are unfounded and your interpretations of my article incorrect. Stone throwers all have something in common: They are usually self-righteous, ready to condemn, and can quote the Word of God. They boast in the keeping of the letter of the law while ignoring the weightier matters of justice, mercy and faith. And besides all this, they have one other notable characteristic . . . they are hypocrites. Matthew 23:23-28.
I have been FALSELY accused by you both, implying that I said Jesus sinned. I never said Jesus sinned. YOU DID! You made the ASSUMPTION that Jesus would have sinned if He had broken the Sabbath--I DID NOT. All I said was Jesus broke the Sabbath. Then you drew out your proverbial stones and said the following:
BobBobbins says, "Jesus never broke the sabbath. If he had done so, he would not have been able to fulfill the law. Your salvation could not have occurred. I am not sure where you get such ridiculous ideas. That is completely absurd and totally false."
My response: Absurd and totally false? . . .Really? "Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said God was His Father" (John 5:18). According to the apostle John, who wrote that scripture under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . .Jesus broke the Sabbath.
Singer4u says, "Paul and Goldenfaith both said in their writings on this forum that Yahushua broke Sabbath. That is impossible! You two should know better than that and to say it is total heresy!!! YOU ARE SAYING HE SINNED!"
My response: heresy? . . .really? "Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said God was His Father" (John 5:18). According to the apostle John, who wrote that scripture under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . .Jesus broke the Sabbath.
It is very clear in the Word of God that Jesus BROKE the Sabbath. It also says in the Word of God that Jesus NEVER sinned. I have no problem with both scriptures. It is you, Singer4u and BobBobbins, who have exalted yourselves above the Word of God to add your own interpretation to John 5:18. You both claim that Jesus could not have broken the Sabbath. Since when does your word override God's Word? You claim to be defenders of the Word, yet you are woefully ignorant of it.
"And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, 'Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!'"
But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him:
"how he entered the house of God and ate the showbread which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?
"Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?
"Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple.
"But if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' you would have not condemned the guiltless.
"For the Son of Man is LORD even of the Sabbath." (Matthew 12:2-8)
Oh yes, Jesus broke the Sabbath, but He never sinned. He was WORKING on the Sabbath healing people, but He never sinned, for He was doing exactly what the Father told Him to do. JESUS IS LORD even of the Sabbath.
And now in regards to Singer4u and BobBobbins adamant stand on the reasons for divorce. Both of you have ignored Jesus' Word spoken in Matthew 19:11:
"But He said to them, 'All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given'"
You both ignore Jesus' Word spoken in Matthew 19:11 and quote only Matthew 19:9. Hypocrites! Is Jesus' Word spoken in verse 11 any less anointed than verse 9? You blind guides, you strain out a gnat and swallow a camel. Jesus said, ALL CANNOT ACCEPT the saying that fornication is the only reason for divorce, 'but only those to whom it has been given.'"
So Singer4u and BobBobbins accept that fornication is the only reason for divorce. Good for you. That's between you and God. Jesus said "ALL CANNOT ACCEPT THIS SAYING." And whether you like it or not, Singer4u and BobBobbins, the LORD JESUS makes it clear that He accepts other believers who have views on divorce contrary to yours.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 17 Jun, 2012 02:41 PM
Jesus said in Matt 19 and I quote:
"What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, EXCEPT IT BE FOR FORNICATION, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery"
Paul Janz said and I quote:
"Likewise, there are MANY reasons someone might seek a divorce: physical and verbal abuse from a spouse . . . being married to an unbeliever who makes life a literal hell . . . marital unfaithfulness . . . the stress of being married to an alcoholic for 23 years . . . or living with a pornographer who refuses to repent....so also is a woman acceptable to God who seeks to be free from an abusive husband, EVEN IF INFIDELITY IN NOT INVOLVED."
Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 17 Jun, 2012 02:50 PM
BobBobbins says, "Did I make any comments anywhere about what a woman should or should not wear?" No, but we are all waiting. For you quote the Word of God in a legalistic manner. You quote Matthew 19:9 that fornication is the only reason for divorce. The definition of fornication according to Encarta � World English Dictionary is "sexual intercourse between two consenting adults, who are not married to each other."
However, according to Jesus, fornication is "But I say to you that whoever LOOKS at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5:28).
A man who looks lustfully after a woman is an adulterer according to Jesus' words. You do not have to hop into bed and have actual sex with another woman to be an adulterer in God's eyes. Therefore any woman who has such a husband, whether he be a pornographer or one who lusts with his eyes after the women in the mall (while his wife is shopping) has every right to divorce him, unless he repents.
BobBobbins says, "Where is this verse in the Bible that states these as exceptions?" (read above and below)
"But He said to them, 'All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given'" (Matthew 19:11)
"neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks" (Ephesians 5:4). And where in the Bible, BobBobbins does it say when humorous talk becomes foolish talk and joking becomes coarse jesting? Your interpretation of foolish talk will no doubt be different from mine. That is why we have the Holy Spirit to convict our conscience when we step out of line.
"in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works" (1Timothy 2:9-10).
Now, BobBobbins, do tell all the women on this site what constitutes modest apparel . . .a dress down to the floor, a dress down to their ankles, or a dress going 1 foot 6 inches past the knees. Now tell them to throw out their jewelry and their gold wedding band and their diamond engagement ring as women who profess godliness. And also supply your address and phone number, so that they can contact you and give you a piece of their mind. :rolleyes:
There are no exact details given in scripture for what constitutes modest apparel. That is why we have the Holy Spirit to convict our conscience as individuals when we step out of line.
A man who looks lustfully after a woman is an adulterer according to Jesus' words: "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5:28). You do not have to hop into bed and have actual sex with another woman to be an adulterer in God's eyes. Therefore any woman who has such a husband has every right to divorce him, unless he repents.
BobBobbins says, "NOTICE: Does he accept a truce? Does he offer forgiveness? Does he show any humility whatsoever? Does he offer his own apology?? What does he do? He demands that Singer must bow to his terms in order to receive the kingdom ( Paul's respect)"
Peter denied Jesus publicly 3 times. Jesus demanded Peter confess Him publicly 3 times.(John 21:15-17) Singer4u maligned me publicly. He needs to make a public apology. I was testing Singer4u to see if his apology was sincere. And just like your phony olive-branch offering, BobBobbins, the readers soon discovered the truth.
BobBobbins says, "This is an attempt to build an honest understanding through extension of an olive branch." Then BobBobbins follows with this statement: "Now he (Paul) takes a most haughty and prideful position - he can not be bothered to even address such lowly and ridiculous people such as Singer and I" . . . all I can say is you have a funny way of extending an olive branch. Perhaps you meant poison ivy?
"He does not say that I have misinterpreted the word of God." (you have) "but merely his articles. However, he does not show how I have done so." . . .really?
BobBobbins and Singer4u. There's really nothing more to be said to you that has not already been said. So I will continue to repeat it until you hopefully get the message.
So BobBobbins and Singer4u, you have been weighed in the balances and found wanting. Your accusations are unfounded and your interpretations of my article incorrect. Stone throwers all have something in common: They are usually self-righteous, ready to condemn, and can quote the Word of God. They boast in the keeping of the letter of the law while ignoring the weightier matters of justice, mercy and faith. And besides all this, they have one other notable characteristic . . . they are hypocrites. Matthew 23:23-28.
I have been FALSELY accused by you both, implying that I said Jesus sinned. I never said Jesus sinned. YOU DID! You made the ASSUMPTION that Jesus would have sinned if He had broken the Sabbath--I DID NOT. All I said was Jesus broke the Sabbath. Then you drew out your proverbial stones and said the following:
BobBobbins says, "Jesus never broke the sabbath. If he had done so, he would not have been able to fulfill the law. Your salvation could not have occurred. I am not sure where you get such ridiculous ideas. That is completely absurd and totally false."
My response: Absurd and totally false? . . .Really? "Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said God was His Father" (John 5:18). According to the apostle John, who wrote that scripture under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . .Jesus broke the Sabbath.
Singer4u says, "Paul and Goldenfaith both said in their writings on this forum that Yahushua broke Sabbath. That is impossible! You two should know better than that and to say it is total heresy!!! YOU ARE SAYING HE SINNED!"
My response: heresy? . . .really? "Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said God was His Father" (John 5:18). According to the apostle John, who wrote that scripture under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . .Jesus broke the Sabbath.
It is very clear in the Word of God that Jesus BROKE the Sabbath. It also says in the Word of God that Jesus NEVER sinned. I have no problem with both scriptures. It is you, Singer4u and BobBobbins, who have exalted yourselves above the Word of God to add your own interpretation to John 5:18. You both claim that Jesus could not have broken the Sabbath. Since when does your word override God's Word? You claim to be defenders of the Word, yet you are woefully ignorant of it.
"And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, 'Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!'"
But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him:
"how he entered the house of God and ate the showbread which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?
"Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?
"Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple.
"But if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' you would have not condemned the guiltless.
"For the Son of Man is LORD even of the Sabbath." (Matthew 12:2-8)
Oh yes, Jesus broke the Sabbath, but He never sinned. He was WORKING on the Sabbath healing people, but He never sinned, for He was doing exactly what the Father told Him to do. JESUS IS LORD even of the Sabbath.
And now in regards to Singer4u and BobBobbins adamant stand on the reasons for divorce. Both of you have ignored Jesus' Word spoken in Matthew 19:11:
"But He said to them, 'All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given'"
You both ignore Jesus' Word spoken in Matthew 19:11 and quote only Matthew 19:9. Hypocrites! Is Jesus' Word spoken in verse 11 any less anointed than verse 9? You blind guides, you strain out a gnat and swallow a camel. Jesus said, ALL CANNOT ACCEPT the saying that fornication is the only reason for divorce, 'but only those to whom it has been given.'"
So Singer4u and BobBobbins accept that fornication is the only reason for divorce. Good for you. That's between you and God. Jesus said "ALL CANNOT ACCEPT THIS SAYING." And whether you like it or not, Singer4u and BobBobbins, the LORD JESUS makes it clear that He accepts other believers who have views on divorce contrary to yours.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 17 Jun, 2012 03:10 PM
Paul said and I quote: "'All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given'"
How many times have I dealt with your faulty understanding of this very point?
All can not accept this saying -----> "it is good for a man not to marry".
In other words disciples, do not go around teaching that men should not marry because only a eunuch would be able to accept that.
Can you accept that saying Paul --> that a man should not marry??
I know that I can not. Why? because I am not a eunuch (of any sort). However, a eunuch can accept this saying. What is a eunuch? A man who has been castrated/is without some of his male parts (maybe it happened by birth, by his own choice, or by someone else choosing that for him.)
BobBobbins says, "Did I make any comments anywhere about what a woman should or should not wear?" No, but we are all waiting. For you quote the Word of God in a legalistic manner. You quote Matthew 19:9 that fornication is the only reason for divorce. The definition of fornication according to Encarta � World English Dictionary is "sexual intercourse between two consenting adults, who are not married to each other"
However, according to Jesus, fornication is "But I say to you that whoever LOOKS at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5:28).
A man who looks lustfully after a woman is an adulterer according to Jesus' words. You do not have to hop into bed and have actual sex with another woman to be an adulterer in God's eyes. Therefore any woman who has such a husband, whether he be a pornographer or one who lusts with his eyes after the women in the mall (while his wife is shopping) has every right to divorce him, unless he repents.
BobBobbins says, "Where is this verse in the Bible that states these as exceptions?" (read above and below)
"But He said to them, 'All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given'" (Matthew 19:11)
"neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks" (Ephesians 5:4). And where in the Bible, BobBobbins does it say when humorous talk becomes foolish talk and joking becomes coarse jesting? Your interpretation of foolish talk will no doubt be different from mine. That is why we have the Holy Spirit to convict our conscience when we step out of line.
"in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works" (1Timothy 2:9-10).
Now, BobBobbins, do tell all the women on this site what constitutes modest apparel . . .a dress down to the floor, a dress down to their ankles, or a dress going 1 foot 6 inches past the knees. Now tell them to throw out their jewelry and their gold wedding band and their diamond engagement ring as women who profess godliness. And also supply your address and phone number, so that they can contact you and give you a piece of their mind. :rolleyes:
There are no exact details given in scripture for what constitutes modest apparel. That is why we have the Holy Spirit to convict our conscience as individuals when we step out of line.
A man who looks lustfully after a woman is an adulterer according to Jesus' words: "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5:28). You do not have to hop into bed and have actual sex with another woman to be an adulterer in God's eyes. Therefore any woman who has such a husband has every right to divorce him, unless he repents.
BobBobbins says, "NOTICE: Does he accept a truce? Does he offer forgiveness? Does he show any humility whatsoever? Does he offer his own apology?? What does he do? He demands that Singer must bow to his terms in order to receive the kingdom ( Paul's respect)"
Peter denied Jesus publicly 3 times. Jesus demanded Peter confess Him publicly 3 times.(John 21:15-17) Singer4u maligned me publicly. He needs to make a public apology. I was testing Singer4u to see if his apology was sincere. And just like your phony olive-branch offering, BobBobbins, the readers soon discovered the truth.
BobBobbins says, "This is an attempt to build an honest understanding through extension of an olive branch." Then BobBobbins follows with this statement: "Now he (Paul) takes a most haughty and prideful position - he can not be bothered to even address such lowly and ridiculous people such as Singer and I" . . . all I can say is you have a funny way of extending an olive branch. Perhaps you meant poison ivy?
"He does not say that I have misinterpreted the word of God." (you have) "but merely his articles. However, he does not show how I have done so." . . .really?
BobBobbins and Singer4u. There's really nothing more to be said to you that has not already been said. So I will continue to repeat it until you hopefully get the message.
So BobBobbins and Singer4u, you have been weighed in the balances and found wanting. Your accusations are unfounded and your interpretations of my article incorrect. Stone throwers all have something in common: They are usually self-righteous, ready to condemn, and can quote the Word of God. They boast in the keeping of the letter of the law while ignoring the weightier matters of justice, mercy and faith. And besides all this, they have one other notable characteristic . . . they are hypocrites. Matthew 23:23-28.
I have been FALSELY accused by you both, implying that I said Jesus sinned. I never said Jesus sinned. YOU DID! You made the ASSUMPTION that Jesus would have sinned if He had broken the Sabbath--I DID NOT. All I said was Jesus broke the Sabbath. Then you drew out your proverbial stones and said the following:
BobBobbins says, "Jesus never broke the sabbath. If he had done so, he would not have been able to fulfill the law. Your salvation could not have occurred. I am not sure where you get such ridiculous ideas. That is completely absurd and totally false."
My response: Absurd and totally false? . . .Really? "Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said God was His Father" (John 5:18). According to the apostle John, who wrote that scripture under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . .Jesus broke the Sabbath.
Singer4u says, "Paul and Goldenfaith both said in their writings on this forum that Yahushua broke Sabbath. That is impossible! You two should know better than that and to say it is total heresy!!! YOU ARE SAYING HE SINNED!"
My response: heresy? . . .really? "Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said God was His Father" (John 5:18). According to the apostle John, who wrote that scripture under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . .Jesus broke the Sabbath.
It is very clear in the Word of God that Jesus BROKE the Sabbath. It also says in the Word of God that Jesus NEVER sinned. I have no problem with both scriptures. It is you, Singer4u and BobBobbins, who have exalted yourselves above the Word of God to add your own interpretation to John 5:18. You both claim that Jesus could not have broken the Sabbath. Since when does your word override God's Word? You claim to be defenders of the Word, yet you are woefully ignorant of it.
"And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, 'Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!'"
But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him:
"how he entered the house of God and ate the showbread which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?
"Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?
"Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple.
"But if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' you would have not condemned the guiltless.
"For the Son of Man is LORD even of the Sabbath." (Matthew 12:2-8)
Oh yes, Jesus broke the Sabbath, but He never sinned. He was WORKING on the Sabbath healing people, but He never sinned, for He was doing exactly what the Father told Him to do. JESUS IS LORD even of the Sabbath.
And now in regards to Singer4u and BobBobbins adamant stand on the reasons for divorce. Both of you have ignored Jesus' Word spoken in Matthew 19:11:
"But He said to them, 'All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given'"
You both ignore Jesus' Word spoken in Matthew 19:11 and quote only Matthew 19:9. Hypocrites! Is Jesus' Word spoken in verse 11 any less anointed than verse 9? You blind guides, you strain out a gnat and swallow a camel. Jesus said, ALL CANNOT ACCEPT the saying that fornication is the only reason for divorce, 'but only those to whom it has been given.'"
So Singer4u and BobBobbins accept that fornication is the only reason for divorce. Good for you. That's between you and God. Jesus said "ALL CANNOT ACCEPT THIS SAYING." And whether you like it or not, Singer4u and BobBobbins, the LORD JESUS makes it clear that He accepts other believers who have views on divorce contrary to yours.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 17 Jun, 2012 05:11 PM
Singer4u says, "however, next time if you are out and have the guts to boldly witness and they knock you out or your teeth or try and murder you then you are going to just let them with no defense of yourself?"
"But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on the right cheek, turn the other to him also" (Matthew 5:39). God's command is to be obeyed.
"And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.' Then he knelt down and cried with a loud voice, 'Lord, do not charge them with this sin.' And when he has said this, he fell asleep" (Acts 7:59-60). Stephen obeyed.
"So they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for His name" (Acts 5:41). The apostles obeyed
"He was oppressed and He was afflicted; yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before his shearers is silent, so He opened not His mouth" Isaiah 53:7). Jesus obeyed.
Singer4u says, "Sorry paul struggling with turning the other cheek has no commandment that the one guilty of it is breaking the law nor is it a damnable offence?" You blind hypocrite. You disobey Jesus' command and justify yourself. Are you saying disobeying Jesus' command is not a sin? Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments" (John 14:15). "The soul who sins shall die" (Ezekiel 18:20). You have broken His commandments not only here but also when you look lustfully on a woman. By your own words, you will be condemned. You said, "No I never lusted for another woman while married." By your own admission then, you have lusted after women BEFORE marriage and AFTER your marriage was over. You look lustfully after women, committing adultery in your mind. And somehow you think that you are immune to Jesus' Word: "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5:28). You, Singer4u, HAVE committed adultery!
You parade yourself on this forum as a servant of God, one who thunders against all adulterers with death and judgment. Yet you are GUILTY of the SAME sin. You blind hypocrite! Let the readers of this thread and those who sit under your teaching be warned:
"For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment" (James 2:13).
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 17 Jun, 2012 05:12 PM
Paul said: "For you quote the Word of God in a legalistic manner. You quote Matthew 19:9 that fornication is the only reason for divorce."
NOTICE: Now, I am condemned by Paul for quoting the word of God as he puts it in "a legalist manner" Notice, I have simply quoted the Word of God.
Let's illustrate the foolishness of such a contention in a simple example:
1 Matt 19: 9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery
2. Matt 19: 9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery
3. Matt 19: 9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Paul, for all of the readers, please tell us which quote was done in legalistic manner? Was it #1? # 1& 2 ? is it 1, 2 & 3? is it 1&3?
Perhaps, Paul's believes that the word of God itself is "legalistic". If that is the case, than God must be a "legalist". I honestly doubt that's what Paul is trying to say, but nonetheless, this is the logical implication of such reasoning.
