I, as one who was delivered from the devastating effects of alcohol 5.5 years ago, can't for the life of me understand how professing Christians can think this devilish concoction is ok for their consumption.
Their favourite passage from what I can tell is the one saying Jesus turned water into wine. NOWHERE does it say it was fermented, alcoholic wine. You have to make it say that you fit your theology.
In the Bible God warns against partaking of fermented wine.
Pr 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
Isa 5:11, 22 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them! Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink
Isa 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
Pr 23:29-35 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast. They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.
God said not to even look at it when it's fermenting, much less drink it. It perverts your judgment.
You know what happened to Noah when he drank it. Not good.
You can be the most beautiful woman physically, but if you're down w/ drinking hooch, I find you unattractive and unappealing from that point on.
An people wonder why the u.s. is in the flusher. It's because the standards have been set to include the lowest common denominator. God's commands separation. God doesnt' have a big tent where everyone gets in. Christianity is the most exclusive, divisive religion in history.
If anyone disagrees, it's not w/ me but w/ the Book.
I would like to hear why drinking alcoholic beverages is ok for Christians.
First, those weren't Christians who murdered the supposed witches. Those were political and financial murders.
I'm quite sure you have absolutely no need to worry that you'll be killed for your faith. Apparently, yours and many others beliefs fit very well w/ the world's ways. Lk 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets. --The world has no problem w/ modern, american Christianity, so you're safe. Carry on.
If you don't understand why the Apocrypha was in between the Testaments in the in 1611, and that is your understanding and answer, then I don't think anything I say from here on out will help you in the slightest. Carry on. Jms 4:4
I do not like the word booze, it suggests drunkenness which is wrong. Alcohol can be good or bad depending on how it is used.
Truthslinger, you keep accusing us of making the Bible fit what we want it to say. But........isn't that exactly what YOU are doing? You say that since we know that God does not like alcohol, the Bible must forbid it. Yet you have not produced one shred of evidence that it does. First those Bible verses that you quote very obviously refer to drunkenness, which we all agree is wrong.
Proverbs 20:5 "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging. And whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Now, I should think it obvious that if your drinking leads to raging and mocking, then you must have been drinking WAY too much! And I should think it just as obvious, that if you are "deceived by it", then you are DRUNK!
Isaiah 5:11 "Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue into the night, till wine inflame them!" Now this is obviously a description of drunkenness! If someone gets up early to drink, and stays up late to drink, and has physical ailments because of all that alcohol, then it is obvious that they are a serious alcoholic!
Isaiah 28:7 "But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment." If someone "errs in vision" and "stumbles in judgment" they certainly have "erred through wine" they are DRUNK!
Proverbs 23:29-35 "Who hath woe? Who hath sorrow? Who hath contentions? Who hath babbling? Who hath wounds without cause? Who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart utter perverse things. Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast. "They have stricken me," shalt thou say, "and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: When shall I awake? I will seek it yet again."." Now this one is especially obvious in it's meaning. The ailments that this passage starts with seem to be quite plain descriptions of drunkenness. The description of "looking upon the wine", is describing someone who seems obsessed with wine. And certainly, the last part of the passage is describing the behavior of a person who is seriously addicted, an alcoholic, a DRUNKARD!
There are many verses in the Bible which warn of the dangers of slothfulness and love of sleep. It would be just as reasonable to say that "we should never sleep", because of those verses, as it is to say that "we should never drink", from the above quoted verses.
Now on to the New Testament.
You claim that the New Testament never says alcoholic wine. Excuse me? I only speak English, so I cannot speak for the other languages, but in English, when you say "wine" you mean the alcoholic beverage! Nobody would think that you meant grape juice. I would assume that there is the same distinction in all the other languages that the New Testament has been written in. Several posts back Zaohagios mentioned that this is indeed the case with Hebrew. I cannot confirm this statement, but I would like to hope that everyone posting here is doing their best to only say what is true. Besides the language thing, there is also the context of the statements. Do you really think that grape juice was being served at the wedding? As SilverFire said, that is outrageously unlikely! Also, I did not see any substantial difference, of the actual substance of the verse that you two were quoting, between the two translations. The difference seems purely that of using different words. There many references in the New Testament to wine. Nowhere is there given any reason to think that it was not alcoholic, rather the evidence is strongly in the other direction. How about the parable of the wineskins, the "old wine" and "the new" ? I would think that ALCOHOLIC wine would not have been used in a parable in such uncondemning fashion if we are supposed to condemn it! You say that the wine used at the Last Supper was unfermented because Jesus said "I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom." But I do not see how that proves whether the wine used THEN was fermented or not.
Now if you have any more evidence, please share it. I am sure that we would all try to judge fairly whether it proves your point or not. But please do not just say yet again that we are wrong, without any evidence to back it up.
Now, of course, alcohol is dangerous. It must be used with caution if it is used at all. Some people really have a problem and "one glass is too many......and a hundred is not enough." Those people ought to never touch it.
But in some homes, you can serve a bottle of wine along with a fancy meal, and those who choose to have some will have a glass or two. Nobody will get even tipsy, and they will all go soberly about their business. Even beer can be used moderately. I know good men who only touch it rarely, and when they have A beer, they have just one. Why would they have more than is good for them? Even what has been referred to hear as "spirits" can be used responsibly. High quality whiskey is a great flavoring for holiday eggnog and cakes.
Too summarize; I do not think that the Bible forbids alcohol. Some people CANNOT drink it safely and some CAN. By the way, it has even been proved to be beneficial to health!
Of course, if you cannot be moderate, DON"T TOUCH IT! But if you, as some people that I know, can be moderate, then CAREFULLY and RESPONSIBLY enjoy some! :-)
I have recently been studing my family tree which goes back to the 1600's. A pastor was in charge of the trials. They all were church going people who did not like the way things were going.They got rid of the not so spiritual bunch. land and a family dispute was part of it.However, the Pastor was on the pay roll of the one side.The side that was in church.
It is one of the sadist times in our history.
I wonder which side was in God's will???? Surely not the Pastors side. Yes, I have stidied it out recently.
I do not drink, nor do I desire too.However, wine is wine.
grape juice is grape juice.
The church i go to serves grape juice.
The American church is not to liberal. The non believers may be.like in some countires the majority does not control the country.
Now we want to see verses that say that wine is grape juice.
what is that word translated as alcoholic wine in Ps 104? Yayin? Shekar? Tirosh? Before you start, realize all the lexicons, dictionaries and interliners are different and the editions are at odds w/ the previous editions.
Do you believe the Bible promotes the bringing down of the "Shekinah Glory?"
@ Slinger, you say "This lax Christian lifestyle occurs when people are fooled by slick marketing techniques telling them the new "bibles" are better. You do realize 99.5% of ALL manuscripts agree w/ the King James Bible, don't you. I suggest you research that before you argue a point w/ a corrupted text (Alexandrian Text.)"
Completely untrue. Both the New American Standard and the New KJV are far closer to the original manuscripts than the KJV. This is partly because so many more manuscripts were not even available in the 1600s. The KJV used some Greek texts, the Latin Vulgate and two other English translations of the Bible to translate the KJV. What's more there are several versions of the KJV as well.
Also, I agree that you are expressing something related to your relationship with alcohol. It may not be fear but it is certainly ok for you to feel this way. I think you should live out the faith you have in regards to alcohol as do the rest of us. You are free to think that we are corrupt if you wish but when you bring up a topic here you should be more prepared to listen and learn than to rant with your rhetoric about your beliefs. (Although I would have to agree there is plenty of that to go around as well.)
The point is that we have to act in love and be patient with each other, expecting to be argued with and yet able to explain ourselves in a way that teaches others rather than accuses them. None of us has all the answers and none of us will until the Day of the Lord, right? I think your belief is very solid for you as is my belief that wine is always alcoholic and is ok for Christians to drink. I also know that I will never drink anything alcoholic in the presence of someone recovering from alcoholism. We are not to be stumbling stones either, right?
No matter how strongly you believe what you believe there will always be someone that will disagree with you. This is a very old and tired topic of debate among Christians and probably will never be resolved. So do whatever you have to do to walk this out in your own life and trust that others who believe differently do so with a clear conscious and a pure faith, ok?
Finally, do you know why you have to take two Baptists with you when you go fishing with them? Because if you take one he'll drink all your beer! There are always those who are hypocrites among us. It is just a part of who and what the Church is. Let us not base our judgment on our interpretation of Scripture but rather on the standard of our Lord Jesus who took up His cross and gave His all for us. This is a far more important matter.
Bible Translator Says, �I'm In Trouble With The Lord.'
Dr. Frank Logsdon, member of the translation committee for the New American Standard Version (NASV), has denounced his work on that Bible and urged all Christians to return to the Authorized Version, commonly known as the King James Bible.
Although the most popular translation at the present time is the New International Version, both of these modern Bibles are based upon the same Catholic text, and Logsdon's concerns apply to both.
Being involved with the project from the very beginning, Logsdon helped publisher F. Dewey Lockman with the feasibility study that led to the translation. He interviewed some of the translators, sat with them, and even wrote the preface. But soon the questions began coming in.
His old friend, Dr. David Otis Fuller, began to put his finger on the many shortcomings of the Catholic text used in all modern Bibles, which include the NASB and today's NIV.
Logsdon finally said, "I'm in trouble; I can't refute these arguments; it's wrong; it's terribly wrong; it's frightfully wrong; and what am I going to do about it?"
Logsdon shocked publisher Dewey Lockman by writing, "I must under God renounce every attachment to the New American Standard."
Logsdon then began to travel extensively, trying to make up for his error by explaining to people the very simple reasons why the Authorized Version is the one Bible which is absolutely 100% correct.
Along with many other scholars, Logsdon had blindly accepted the basic argument used today to support the use of the two Catholic manuscripts, the Vaticanus and the Sinaiticus, in all modern Bibles.
The "experts" claim that these are the oldest manuscripts in existence, so they must be the best!
In one of his many public speeches, Logsdon explained, "When there is an omission that might be observed, they put in the margin, �Not in the oldest manuscripts.' But they don't tell you what those oldest manuscripts are. What oldest manuscripts?
Or they say, �Not in the best manuscripts.' What are the best manuscripts? They don't tell you. You see how subtle that is?
The average man sees a little note in the margin which says �not in the better manuscripts' and he takes for granted they are scholars and they must know, and then he goes on. That's how easily one can be deceived."
It was only after Logsdon took the time to really look into this issue that he was horrified to see that he had played right into Satan's hands, and helped to take many verses out of the Scriptures. Logsdon admitted, "The deletions are absolutely frightening."
The huge number of English Bible translations currently available has produced untold millions of dollars in sales, but does anyone believe that they have produced a modern Church which is more knowledgeable about their Bible? No, it has produced the Siamese twins of confusion and falling away from truth.
All modern Bible translators today use, without question, the New Testament text produced by the famous scholars Hort and Westcott. Them being members of a college group called the "Ghostly Guild," where they contacted the dead, ought to give one pause.
Many readers are surprised at the beliefs of these men, documented by their own writings. Yet modern scholars accept their work without question, just as many university professors today blindly accept evolutionary teaching, safely going along with the crowd to protect their reputations. If you hold in your hand the Authorized Version, you have God's Truth.
History supports it, the Holy Spirit has confirmed it, God's Church has prospered by it. You will find it is hated by all those who seek to make an elastic Bible that is all things to all people� which then becomes nothing to anyone.
Logsdon's advice? If you hold the Authorized Version, and someone tries to prod you to accept another, "You don't need to defend it; you don't need to apologize for it.
"Just say, �Well, did this new version or this translation come down through the Roman Catholic stream? If so, count me out.'"
"I must under God renounce every attachment to the New American Standard Version. I'm afraid I'm in trouble with the Lord... We laid the groundwork; I wrote the format; I helped interview some of the translators; I sat with the translator; I wrote the preface... I'm in trouble; I can't refute these arguments; its wrong, terribly wrong... The deletions are absolutely frightening... there are so many... Are we so naive that we do not suspect Satanic deception in all of this?
Upon investigation, I wrote my dear friend, Mr. Lockman, explaining that I was forced to renounce all attachment to the NASV You can say that the Authorized Version (KJV) is absolutely correct. How correct? 100% correct..."
Not everything w/ a steeple is a church and not everything that sells itself as a Bible is the word of God. Again, the modern Bibles are based off of catholicism and their heretical documents. If you can't see there's a problem, then I have nothing more to offer you.
