ARMINIAN SPEAKING;gee,Im so glad that I made that decision to follow christ cuz if I hadnt done that I wouldnt be saved,Im really a clever person because I was able to choose god,and my neghbor is not as smart as me,thankyou god for making me smarter than my neighbor so in all of MY great wisdom I was able to see the wisdom in following you!
calvinist speaking:thankYOU lord for opening my eyes oh lord,for without YOUR grace and mercy,i would still be dead in my tresspasses and sin,YOU regenerated my mind,took away my heart of stone,And YOU gave me a heart of flesh,thankYOU oh lord for saving a wretch like me,in JESUS NAME AMEN
Aren't you glorifying yourself by saying you're absolutely right, and everyone else is wrong? At least I admit there's a chance I'm wrong...It's presumption to say you have all truth...the bible says it's possible for people to twist the scriptures...maybe you are? Why do most protestants go to church on Sunday? Why do most protestants believe in the immortality of the soul? Why do Catholics believe that a man can forgive their sins? Why do Catholics believe it's ok to pray to idols? Why are there so many denominations, when there is only one bible? Hmm....somebody must be twisting something...I wonder if it's me. Could be. Could be you too. I can explain away your "verses" just like you do to mine. I'm interested to see what LegendOfTheCrucifix has to say about his "Jesus only died for the saved". He went through an awful lot of trouble to go through all the greek and hebrew and definitions till he found what he needed, and all I did was look in the bible. "Oh look! Here a verse were it specifically says 'And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.' Hey! Another one! 'And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.' Well....bless me! Another one...'This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men�the testimony given in its proper time.' This is getting redundant...'For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.' 'And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent'." I know I'm getting a little annoying...but someone just took 2 plain scriptures that agreed with the rest of the bible....turned them....and implied that the whole bible means the exact opposite.
*This part literally reads: "The Lord is not willing that certain ones should perish."*
Did Jesus die for all the sins of the entire human race or not? I think the bible says he did...and I really don't want to be mean but...I think someone just twisted the scriptures...and I hope it wasn't me...:prayingm:
Well....since we're picking teams, lol....you can have Luther and Calvin....I want Jesus...he was there first...Jesus is the word. The Bible is the word. The word is truth. Luther isn't in the word....Calvin isn't in the word...my doctrines aren't from 1600 years ago...1600 years ago the "early church counsel" was catholic....with popes and everything. Good luck with that. I'm reading the bible...my beliefs come from the bible....so unless you don't believe God can protect His inspired word...
I have encountered Arminians using 1 Timothy 4:10 before, and this argument is not new.
Here's how it's explained rightly:
"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." - 1 Timothy 4:10 (KJV)
Clearly, the part that reads "specially of those that believe" would modify what kind of savior Jesus is to those who believe, or that phrase would make NO SENSE.
We obviously know that universal salvation is a heresy, so let's go into the Greek.
1. saviour, deliverer, preserver
The Greek word for "Savior" which is "soter" can mean different things. There are many different ways that God saves. Of course, the most important aspect of being saved is from the wrath of God.
Salvation can include many things such as the rescue from an enemy attack (Psalm 18:3), preservation (Matthew 8:25), physical healing (Matthew 9:22; James 5:15), and God saved not only Paul's life but the whole ship (Acts 27:22, 31, 44).
Also, the Greek word soter is used in places such as these:
"And when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD, the LORD raised up a deliverer to the children of Israel, who delivered them, even Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother." - Judges 3:9 (KJV)
"Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies." - Nehemiah 9:27 (KJV)
"Thy righteousness is like the great mountains; thy judgments are a great deep: O LORD, thou preservest man and beast." - Psalm 36:6 (KJV)
To sum it up, you must also understand the doctrine of common grace. God provides food, water, breath, etc. which can be defined as a "preserver".
So when it says God is the savior of all men, it specifically means deliverer or preserver. Proof is in the last part of the verse, which most Arminians fail to comprehend, which means that believers will be saved from the greatest threat which is the wrath of God.
Secondly, just because He commands everyone to repent, doesn't MEAN everyone will be saved. The fact of the matter is, not everyone is going to repent, because our limited free will in an unregenerate state will never allow it.
God knows this, so is He evil? No. It's just a way to satisfy His justice.
Again, Romans 9 is a perfect example of God's sovereignty. We are the clay and He is the potter. Who are you, o man to talk back to God?
DontHitThatMark, point me to one Scripture that says that Jesus died for everyone who ever lived. If that were the case, His death would have been wasted for those who are now in Hell, and God would have failed to save, which He doesn't.
My God is POWERFUL to save, not weak, depending on my decision.
I already gave you John 10:15 which you ignore.
The rule of interpretation is to use the more specific verses to define the broader ones. Come on, you learn this in BEGINNING theology class.
Ok, I read one of your old posts, and you accuse me of not being a Calvinist. I would challenge you to do research before making assertions. Research people like James White and Robert Morey and they would say the exact same thing. We do NOT deny free will, only that free will is limited. Sin has corrupted it, so the only thing unregenerate man can choose is to rebel against God.
Furthermore, let me explain John 2:2.
I have already established that "world" very rarely means everyone on the face of the Earth, and that it's most common usage is "collectively; some of all types".
The "whole world" as mentioned in John 2:2 simply means that salvation is available not only to Jews, but Gentiles, Greeks, Romans, etc.
In the end though, the power of salvation will have been ALWAYS in effect for the elect, or the ones God chose. If God elected no one, then no one could be saved, because our free will is corrupt. If you stood before God and said I was right, would you argue with Him?
And it's not a matter of being right or wrong, but what God's whole Word says. You can't simply rip one Scripture out and ignore the rest. That's absurd.
Now 2 Corinthinas 5:15, I'm making myself a little redundant. If you read my former posts, you'll see I went into the Greek word for "all" already, which definition applies here.
When someone says, "I do it ALL, you know."
Take that as an example. Have they done everything that there is to be done? Absolutely not.
The same is applied to 1 Timothy 2:4-6...
And I already explained Acts 17:30 in that commanding everyone to repent doesn't mean that they will repent, or that God has predestined everyone in the end.
If you want to continue to be ignorant, and not study to show yourself approved (2 Timothy 2:15), then it's a waste of time to even continue this discourse.
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
So with the context...he's talking to God's children...and you think that because he's talking to "children" the rest is talking about a "certain people"...ok. "And he is the propitiation for the children's sins: and not for the children's only, but also for the sins of the children." That doesn't make any sense.
--"We obviously know that universal salvation is a heresy, so let's go into the Greek."
You're right...I don't think universal salvation is true....but just because Jesus died for everyone and gave them the option of being saved, doesn't mean that everyone will be. But I think he paid the price for everyone, and the bible seems to support that view. I just find it very strange that all those verses I gave you not only are "translated incorrectly" but they also mean exactly the opposite according to your view. It just doesn't seem possible that the KJV translators could have done such an awful job on every one of those verses. I suppose God just decided not to protect His word for English people...only for Greeks. Because according to you...they were way off. In fact...it's so far off that the KJV should be considered a complete heresy. It says exactly the opposite of what it means!
--"To sum it up, you must also understand the doctrine of common grace. God provides food, water, breath, etc. which can be defined as a "preserver".
Calvinists sure have a lot of doctrines.
"But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men."
--"His death would have been wasted for those who are now in Hell, and God would have failed to save, which He doesn't"
And I'm sorry...but I don't believe this either. I believe that everyone that has died is resting in the grave until Jesus's second coming. The judgment happens at the end of time...why would God punish someone before He judges them?
--"Ok, I read one of your old posts, and you accuse me of not being a Calvinist"
Wow...settle down...all I was saying is that I've talked to another Calvinist and they believe exactly opposite of you. They said we have no free will at all, and that Jesus DID die for the sins of the whole world. But you are definitely a Calvinist...I have no doubt, lol.
--"John 10:15"
If Jesus died for the sins of the whole would then I would think it was obvious he died "specially" for the sheep. "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." But I didn't go to theology class so please forgive my stupidity.
"If you want to continue to be ignorant, and not study to show yourself approved (2 Timothy 2:15), then it's a waste of time to even continue this discourse."
All I have to say is...thanks for judging my efforts and my motives. Nice to know there are people out there that still do that:rolleyes:. I did study, thank you. I'm sure the scribes and pharisees studied as well....boy, were they wrong. What about Catholics? They're the oldest/largest church in the world! 2,000 years of studying! They believe it's biblical to worship idols. They believe a man can forgive their sins! All that studying! They must be right! Right?
