Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 2 Feb, 2012 11:28 PM
Thanks to a question about divorce and remarriage posted on another thread, I felt the need to address those on this site who may be suffering from the weight of guilt and condemnation heaped on them because of their reasons for divorce.
I wrote the following article, "The Stone Thrower", based on actual instances that happened on this site. If you are one of those who have been ostracized by others for having an "Unbiblical Divorce," please take the time to read. May it minister to your heart.
The Stone Thrower
I want to touch on a subject today that has long been regarded in Christendom as taboo . . . and that is . . . DIVORCE. Mention that word around some Christians and their hackles suddenly go up on the back of their neck. They pull out their proverbial stones ready to put to death anyone who they think has been un-biblically divorced. And to my shame, I was one of them�a stone thrower.
We all know the story of the woman caught in adultery in John 8:3-11. The scribes and Pharisees (the religious self-righteous) had arrested this woman and dragged her before Jesus. One has to wonder how these Pharisees caught such a woman "in the very act" of adultery. How convenient for them. It's amazing the depths of depravity the self-righteous will sink to in order to defend their religious arguments. Did they have the paparazzi spy on her to get some juicy pictures for the whole world to see?
At any rate, they dragged this poor woman in front of Jesus and proudly proclaimed, "Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?" (John 8:5)
Zowie!! These men can quote the Word of God . . . at least the parts that suit their fancy.
I like our Lord's reaction. "But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear" (John 8:6b).
Don't you just love it when someone ignores you . . . especially when you're trying to win an argument? But the self-righteous rarely lie down without a fight, and those religious Pharisees were determined to prove that they had the "truth." So they continued pestering Jesus, knowing that the Law of Moses was on their side. It's not a good idea to pester Jesus, especially when it comes to "pointing a finger" at someone.
"So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, 'He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.' And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. Then those who heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning from the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst" (John 8:7-9).
This introductory story of the woman caught in adultery has a purpose: I wanted you to have a glimpse of the mentality of a "stone thrower." They are usually self-righteous, ready to condemn, and can quote the Word of God. Ouch . . . I just described me.
I had a clear cut answer for the reasons one might give to justify divorce which I thought was quite Biblical. And in my mind, there was only one reason . . . "But I say to you, that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except for sexual immorality, causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery" (Matthew 5:32). There you have it�plain and simple. Who could argue with such a statement? It is the Word of God! I thought I had the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth . . . yet the truth is . . . I was ignorant of the ways of God. "For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment" (James 2:13).
And it was in my ignorance to God's ways that I threw stones at the divorced ladies on a Christian dating site some time ago. As a widower, I was on this site looking for a prospective wife. I was so appalled at the amount of women who were divorced on this site whose reasons for separating from their husbands did not match my view of scripture. In order to protect myself from these "contaminated souls," I purposely wrote something in my profile for those that I would consider as wife material: "You may be single, widowed, or divorced (must be for Biblical reasons only)."
When I would communicate with these divorced ladies, I would immediately ask them to provide details on the reason for their divorce. If they could not give me an answer of infidelity as the reason for their divorce, then I considered them unmarriageable. Yet God has a way of grabbing His child's attention when that child is in error.
One of the ladies on this dating site told me her story of divorce after I demanded it. Her husband was deep in bondage to pornography and had no interest whatsoever in repentance. The man had not physically hopped into bed with another woman, and so in my self-righteousness, I condemned the poor wife for wanting to opt out on the marriage. And the "stones" that I threw created fresh wounds in her heart while she recounted those painful memories of her husband's infidelity as he lusted after porn. According to Jesus' own words, her husband WAS GUILTY of adultery: "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5:28). I ignored that scripture and concentrated only on Matthew 5:32. She lashed out at me, saying that she was glad Jesus did not condemn her even if I did. I have to admit, I was shaken by her story which moved me to tears.
Then there was another lady whom I demanded to give an account for her divorce. I threw "stones" at her as well when she could not give me a reason of infidelity for her separation. In bitter anger, she struck back at me, stating how her husband had broken her nose and physically abused her. I ignored the scripture which reads, "But God has called us to peace" (1 Corinthians 7:15b) and concentrated again on Matthew 5:32. However, her story bothered me very much just like the other woman's.
I began to seek God earnestly. These were only two of the many ladies who shared with me their heartbreaking stories of divorce. There were so many reasons given for divorce and none of them fell under sexual immorality (fornication) as I saw it. I sincerely asked the Lord to open my eyes. Was there any scriptural evidence to support these women's choices to opt out of a marriage other than infidelity? Yes, there was.
God led me to Matthew 19:3-12. The Pharisees were looking for a reason to trap Jesus in His words. Their previous scheme had not worked with the woman caught in adultery. However, if they could just get Jesus to say something contradictory to the Law of Moses, then they could brand Him as a heretic. So they asked Jesus this question, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?" (Matthew 19:3b)
Jesus' answer was, and still is, God's original intention for marriage: "Have you not read . . . the two shall become one flesh? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate" (Matthew 19:5b-6).
The Pharisees did not like His answer. For Jesus had taken them right back to Genesis before there ever was a Moses or a Law of Moses so that they could hear what GOD SAYS about marriage. Yet the stiff-necked Pharisees persisted with another question: "Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?" (Matthew 19:7)
Jesus responds, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so" (Matthew 19:8).
The self-righteous Pharisees were using the Law of Moses as an excuse to bail out on marriages for any flippant reason. And because of this, the Lord had some very strong words for them. "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery" (Matthew 19:9).
I can just hear the stone throwers shouting, "See, I told you . . . it's right there in the word . . . 'sexual immorality!'"
Wait a minute. Like Paul Harvey, let's hear "the rest of the story" before jumping to any conclusions. After verse 9 comes verse 10. Even Jesus' disciples, which would include us, were amazed at the words of Jesus. "His disciples said to Him, 'If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry'" (Matthew 19:10). Yeah, I can see their point. If sexual immorality (fornication) is the only reason for divorce, then perhaps we are better off not getting married.
But look at Jesus' response to his own disciples in verse 11. It stands to reason that if the disciples' statement was true, then Jesus would have said something to affirm it as such. He does not!
"But He said to them, 'All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given'" (Matthew 19:11).
What saying? The saying in verse 9 of course. NOT ALL can accept the saying that fornication is the ONLY reason for divorce.
Now notice that Jesus goes on to explain what He meant with the following verse:
"For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother's womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it" (Matthew 19:12).
What did Jesus mean by this? He tells us that three different men all became eunuchs for different reasons. One was born a eunuch, another was made a eunuch by men, and still another made himself that way for the kingdom of heaven. They all became eunuchs for different reasons, but who is to say which eunuch is "God approved"? God accepted them all. That's the point!
Likewise, there are many reasons someone might seek a divorce: physical and verbal abuse from a spouse . . . being married to an unbeliever who makes life a literal hell . . . marital unfaithfulness . . . the stress of being married to an alcoholic for 23 years . . . or living with a pornographer who refuses to repent. Which one of these reasons for divorce is "God approved"? That's the point Jesus was making. Just as the eunuchs were acceptable to God regardless of how they became a eunuch, so also is a woman acceptable to God who seeks to be free from an abusive husband, even if infidelity is not involved. You and I cannot see in the heart of that abused person . . . but God can. For God has called them to peace.
And the church has done more harm counselling emotionally and physically battered women to stay in a relationship citing Matthew 5:32 "except for sexual immorality" as the only just cause for divorce. Women have actually committed suicide and murder under the stress of remaining in an abusive situation because their legalistic church counseled them to do so.
You may have heard of the case in the U.S. where a lady killed her husband (a pastor) who had been abusing her for years. God had called her to peace . . . but she never knew it, and one day she snapped. The evidence of abuse was so overwhelming that the courts found this woman not guilty of murder by reason of insanity.
I certainly do not want to imply that people should take their marriage so lightly as to divorce for every whim and fancy. I would not condone that, and neither does the Word of God. Every marriage will have its share of problems which can be worked out with God's help by two committed individuals. Yet there are some women, especially those suffering physical and mental abuse, who have reached the tipping point of no return; and the only thing they can do to preserve their sanity is to get out of that marriage. And ultimately, it is to the Lord they answer to, not you or me. He has called them to peace.
After God opened my eyes to the truth of scripture, I contacted those ladies on the dating site who I had thrown "stones" at and apologized profusely. I was truly grieved that I had been so self-righteous and blind, wounding those precious sisters for whom Christ died.
Now back to the story that I began with. The "stone throwers" had already dropped their rocks and left the scene with a guilty conscience, leaving Jesus alone with the adulterous woman.
"He said to her, 'Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?'"
"She said, 'No one, Lord.'"
"And Jesus said to her, 'Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more'" (John 8:10b-11).
HALLELUJAH�MERCY TRIUMPHS OVER JUDGMENT!!!
Blessings in Christ Jesus,
Paul Janz
(All Scripture quotations are taken from the Holy Bible, New King James Version.)
"The Stone Thrower" Copyright � 2010 by Paul Janz.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 10 Jun, 2012 11:26 PM
As always, teach ib, you do an excellent job as an expositor of God's Word. And though I have never held to any particular teaching of eternal security, I nonetheless believe, according to the same scriptures that you have presented here, that we CAN KNOW we are secure in Jesus . . . that He will never leave us nor forsake us. And for people who have lived their Christian life in constant fear of an "angry God", the scriptures that you have presented give assurance that God is not against us, but for us. I love it! Thank you so much for sharing.
I have chosen to share some thoughts from your posts that ministered to me personally:
"Singer, as Goldenfaith pointed out on earlier post...where is King David today? In Heaven or Hell?
After King David was saved...he committed adultery, then murder, Then married the woman he committed adultery with. Based on your statement that an adulterer continues in adultery throughout the marriage (continual sin) then King David is in Hell. However, God said he was a man after His heart. King David is in Heaven today.
The size of the sin does not matter...a little white lie is a lie and will separate one from God or hinder the relationship between man/woman and God."
I provided context and proof to your verses. If you want to practice the belief of having to worry constantly that you might sin after you accepted God's free gift of eternal life and not make it to Heaven...you have the freedom to do that. I have been freed from sin through the redemption of Jesus. I am no longer a slave to sin...not chained to it"
"When we receive God's free gift of salvation, He begins working in our lives. God accepts us as we are in our sins...we do not have to stop sinning to receive His gift. It is when we receive the gift of salvation that the Holy Spirit in dwells us and begins to convict us of the sins in our lives. Sometimes people immediately set aside sins (stop smoking, drinking, adultery, etc) however, in most cases, it takes time for people to fully understand and accept the sins they are committing which is the example in 1 Corinthians (they are still babies in Christ, they have not started growing in their Christian walk)"
"Not being under the law is not a license to sin as those who will accuse those of us who believe in the security of the believer. I never said I don't follow the commandments, in fact I have stated that I do follow the commandments because they set the right example for pleasing God. Just like we want to please our earthly parents, we should want to please our Heavenly Father, even more. We give up our sins because we are saved, not saved because we gave up our sins."
"Just like a parent loves a child even though that child may be disobedient or makes poor choices in life, God still loves His children even though He doesn't approve of what His children are doing. He doesn't disown His children. He chastises/punishes us just like our earthly parents, He provides us guidance through His Word and teachers/preachers, he picks us up when we fall down, He encourages through His rewards/blessings . . ."
"Salvation is either freely offered by God's grace and freely received as a gift because of Christ's blood sacrifice -- or else salvation is conditional and works are a necessary part of salvation. If salvation is conditional, one lives in fear of sinning. If salvation is unconditional, one chooses not to sin to please the Heavenly Father."
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 11 Jun, 2012 11:50 AM
Lest there be any confusion regarding the intent of my article, let me make it perfectly clear. Marriage is a holy covenant before God that is meant for life, until death do you part. That is God's original intention and it has not changed.
If you are in a troubled marriage right now, do not seek a divorce until you have sought God with all your heart, that He would first change you and make you into a more loving, gracious, and merciful husband or wife. And at the same time, pray earnestly for your spouse, but do not preach at them. I personally know of a couple from my church whose troubled marriage God turned around because the two made a choice before God to try and make it work.
Does Paul Janz believe or condone that people can get a divorce for any reason? NO, I most certainly do not!
Below is a private email from a lady whom I met recently on another site, of whom I had taken an interest in, until she shared something that blew me away. She said that her ex-husband was presently her best friend. She did not charge her husband with committing adultery or physical abuse or any such evil thing, but that he had failed to understand her Love Languages. I was sickened and immediately broke off our communication. Please take the time to read her letter and my response and let's have your thoughts. The letter is exactly as it was written to me, including all word emphasis. I have removed her name for obvious reasons and bleeped out some crude words.
Every time I have taken the Love Languages test, (and there have been MANY occasions, six, at least I believe), my answers are pretty much the same. My three highest scores are physical touch, words of affirmation, and quality time. These are almost tied. Most people have two love languages with high scores. My lowest, BY FAR, are gifts and acts of service. It is not that I dislike gifts, or having things done for me (for instance, I despise pumping my own gas! lol), I just don't usually NEED those things to feel loved.
I think the ONE exception I would have about a gift would be this...when my husband and I got engaged, he did not have much money at all. We went together to the jewelry store to pick out my engagement ring. Being sensitive to the situation, I chose a very simple and extremely inexpensive ring for myself. I went back later, and with my own money bought his wedding ring, which was several times over more expensive than his. Not that I minded that, not at all. I loved him. But, my engagement ring was never replaced with someone better. I am not a woman taken to expensive jewelry, to gold and diamonds.....I love the playfulness and versatility of costume jewelry. But, I have to say, in this one instance, my heart always did hurt about this. That the man who 'loved' me enough to marry me, did not feel it necessary to show me the desire or worth he thought of having me as his wife to be.
It never bothered him that I had a very cheap engagement/wedding ring...and I guess, in some ways that came to symbolize the whole marriage for me. It was 'good enough'. It would 'do'. I don't know...I guess an engagement ring is meant to say 'I love you THIS much.' Maybe that is just a silly girl thing. You see, fancy cars ,fancy homes, all of that to me is transitory. I could live in a tent with the man I love and be as happy as a pig in (bleep), so to speak. BUT, a wedding or an engagement ring's symbol is so very deep, at least to me, and I would have to say this is the ONE instance where I would have wanted a true 'gift'...not of the diamond, only, but of my man's heart.
To answer your questions...
I have only been married once. I was married when I was 27 years old and was married for almost 24 years.. I have 4 children, and 6 grandchildren.
I have been officially 'divorced' since October, however, in my heart I have been divorced MUCH longer than that. I separated, physically, from my husband two years ago, but, emotionally it was probably 5 years ago, or more, that my heart for him died completely.
Early on in our marriage, I cajoled him into seeing different counselors to get our marriage on track. Unfortunately, most of these were 'ministers', and were men, and it seemed to me that they were of no real help, and I fear that the same issues that were affecting our marriage (an inability for my husband to be emotionally and physically connected), also plagued their own marriages. Maybe by ignoring the real issues of our marriage, that made it so that they didn't need to look at their own. I don't know.
As much as I value a man's opinion (and truly, I do, more than I can articulate here), I see now, after all those years of counseling from these men, that there is a sort of 'unspoken' camaraderie with men that goes like this...'I won't call your (bleep) out on this, because if I do, then I am accountable, too. So, let's just pretend there is something ELSE wrong with your marriage other than what is REALLY WRONG.' Maybe I am being cynical here, and I am sure the same thing happens in feminine circles, so, you are free to challenge me on this, if you like, my friend.
My husband has not remarried, though, it is my greatest wish for him. I don't want to see him alone for the rest of his life. I want him to find that special someone, who can be all the things to him, that I, apparently, was never ALLOWED to be for him.
How is it that we are such dear and precious friends now? It's a God thing.
Oh, don't get me wrong, there was plenty of negative emotions, hating, hurting, bitterness, for quite some time. But, the truth of the matter is, we made a huge mistake in the very beginning...and this is where it lie.. from the very START.
I am quite sure now, we were ONLY MEANT to be friends. We were great friends, and had a mutual respect for one another. I think what happened here, was that, in my small town, there really WERE no Christian men. None. I had a daughter that I felt needed a 'daddy'....and even though I knew two weeks before I was to marry, that I was making a big mistake, I refused to listen to that guiding inner instinct that God has entrusted to woman . . .yes, that of intuition. I have paid DEARLY for the one mistake.
And yet? how can I stay angry or sad? I have beautiful children, and I mean, they are exquisite in every way. They are shining lights, the joy of all who know them. They all have reputations that precede them. They are masters, each in their own way. How can I hate the man who has given me such gifts?
But, it is not only that, as I have indicated....we have been through untold sorrows together, my ex and I. We have weathered storms that persisted, and crashed against our lives like the ceaseless waves crash mercilessly on the shore during a winter storm.
Maybe it is some sort of survivor's bond, or like the indescribable connection that war comrades have, after seeing such atrocious things. I think, maybe, in some ways, it is like that. Now that I am free, and the hurt and bitterness is dissipating, I see in him a good man, kind and sweet, a man of wisdom and insight. Just NOT the man FOR ME. A friend, yes, INDEED, BUT, a husband to me... NO, he never really was, and NO!!!!!!!!!!!!! he never will be.
As for his part, he now cherishes my friendship too...we go for coffee, and he is free to encourage me, where he never was when we were married. He tells me that I am 'epic', and that he is proud of all I have endured, and all I have become. We join one another for children's events, and such. We often have dinner/game nights with my youngest daughter and her boyfriend.
There have even been times he has come over to pray for me, and has held me while I have sobbed (not as a husband holds a wife, and gently kisses her cheek, and brushes away the stray strands of hair from her wetted face....no, not at all as a husband would do, more as a brother would hold his sister, not knowing what to do, but to keep his arms enfolded around her while she wept bitterly into his chest)
So, you ask...why would I not be reconciled to him? Because, in the truest way I know, he was not ever, my husband. He was a friend. Our relationship never crossed the line into true marriage, not even for a moment. I don't know if this makes sense to you, as it does to my own heart. It was as though I married my brother. We were room-mates. And, we were room-mates who lived separate lives from one another, and tolerated each other in the same living space.
We are, the best, the 'truest' we have ever been now. I have no love for him, as a wife would love her husband. I held tenaciously to that love for many, many years, hoping that my diligence would be rewarded. When at last that love did die, it was a pure and real death, of which there is no hope of resurrection. My love for him was a love of the man who I WANTED him to be, not for the man he really WAS.
I hope somehow, amongst the muddle of my words, you are able to understand what I am trying to convey. I am excited about getting the chance to read your novel...and am finding myself intrigued.! I hope I don't have to wait too long before getting to read some of it!
I hope the sun has peeked out to kiss your nose this afternoon!
Thank you for sharing. 24 years is a long time to be married. I understand what you mean when you say that your love for your husband has died, yet you have had three children(?) by him. And now, miracle of miracles, you now regard him as one of your closest friends. We are talking about your husband here of 24 years. Does God cast us aside when we fall short? Is He not married to the backslider? I'm sorry, but I feel I cannot go any further in this relationship. You are a special, intelligent, and beautiful woman, but I know we are not meant for one another.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 11 Jun, 2012 06:37 PM
Paul,
I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for posting this woman's letter to you and your response to her. This most profoundly illustrates my point. You have done perhaps far better than I could have myself.
In your response, you take the position of a most self righteous stone thrower. She has been weighed in your balances and found wanting. Rather than offering her the "mercy" that you speak so much of, you have judged her as unworthy of your consideration based on your own subjective standards.
You have cast your stones with a smile on your face and a flatterer�s lips but you have cast them just the same.
You see Paul, when we throw out God's objective standards on any matter we are left with our own subjective standards. When we discard His righteousness, as spelled out in His law, we are left with nothing but our own (self) righteousness. Such was the case of the Pharisee in his day.
You have selectively decided the terms for an acceptable divorce, as outlined clearly in your article, because those are what you (Paul) are willing to accept as "biblical reasons". One can assume those must be the most "serious" cases in your mind.
However, how do you know what it was like for this poor woman to endure what she must have endured in a marriage where her "love languages" were ignored. Oh the pain and torment of that kind of abuse day after day must be totally unbearable. Where is your grace and your mercy for this poor poor woman?
God has laid out his standard on the matter - it is not open for discussion as you have so vainly imagined. There is but one exception given for divorce according to Christ himself in Matt 19. This is the standard. This is what is good, acceptable and pleasing in His sight.
The logical implication of the path you are on is that today it's for fornication, tomorrow for abuse, then it's an insult, then the lawn not being mowed until we are left with divorce for any reason. This is the slippery slope that you are sliding down -this same slope that you offer to your readers with one caveat - only make sure it's not "taken lightly".
So, in conclusion Paul, you play your hand at being God. This was the original sin in the garden when Adam and Eve purposed to determine for themselves what was good and what was evil. Some things never change.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 11 Jun, 2012 08:53 PM
Paul,
Thank you for your kind words and sharing the example of a questionable grounds divorce. I agree with you that every effort should be made to reconcile a marriage, even if Biblical grounds exist for termination.
Until someone faces the reality of a failed or failing marriage, or is closely associated with those who have/are; it is difficult to be objective in the assessment. There are no easy answers as there are disagreements by leaders within churches and denominations. I know of one congregation with three leaders each having different views (divorce/remarriage possible for more than just adultery/fornication; divorce/remarriage only for adultery; and no remarriage, no matter the reason for divorce).
I again want to thank you for the initial post. It is a difficult topic which, as evidenced on this thread, causes much controversy. There is healing and assurance in Scripture for those who are experiencing or have experienced failure in a marriage. Yes, there are people from all walks that stand ready to condemn and inflict more pain on the hurting person who may be the victim of a spouse that breaks vows. Thankfully, the Heavenly Father will bring each of us through the trials we experience and make the most of it (Romans 8:28).
Know that if you have gone through divorce as a Christian or a non-Christian, whether you "caused" the divorce or were the victim of the other spouse's failure to uphold the wedding vows, God still loves you and will forgive you of your sin(s). 1 John 1:9
If you are unsure if you have Biblical grounds for remarriage, seek Godly counsel from your pastor. Proverbs 11:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall:
but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 11 Jun, 2012 09:24 PM
BobBobbins says, "However, how do you know what it was like for this poor woman to endure what she must have endured in a marriage where her "love languages" were ignored. Oh the pain and torment of that kind of abuse day after day must be totally unbearable. Where is your grace and your mercy for this poor poor woman?"
As usual Bob, you fall into the error of making assumptions and accusations without knowing all the facts. I did not post all her emails nor did I post all of my reply to her in this email. And neither was I condemning her. Her letter is a simple example of someone looking for a flimsy excuse to opt out of a marriage. Did you not read her letter in full?
Speaking of her past marriage with him, she says, "We were great friends, and had a mutual respect for one another."
Speaking of her present relationship with him, she says, "We are, the best, the 'truest' we have ever been now"
"As for his part, he now cherishes my friendship too...we go for coffee, and he is free to encourage me, where he never was when we were married. He tells me that I am 'epic', and that he is proud of all I have endured, and all I have become. We join one another for children's events, and such. We often have dinner/game nights with my youngest daughter and her boyfriend."
"There have even been times he has come over to pray for me, and has held me while I have sobbed (not as a husband holds a wife, and gently kisses her cheek, and brushes away the stray strands of hair from her wetted face....no, not at all as a husband would do, more as a brother would hold his sister, not knowing what to do, but to keep his arms enfolded around her while she wept bitterly into his chest)"
BobBobbins, does this sound like the woman is suffering from "pain and torment" as you just alluded to? Throw down your stones Bob, you are starting to play the fool again.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 11 Jun, 2012 09:41 PM
Blessings to you teach ib, your counsel is full of grace and wisdom from the Lord. Let's play it again for the benefit of all the readers:
"Paul,
Thank you for your kind words and sharing the example of a questionable grounds divorce. I agree with you that every effort should be made to reconcile a marriage, even if Biblical grounds exist for termination.
Until someone faces the reality of a failed or failing marriage, or is closely associated with those who have/are; it is difficult to be objective in the assessment. There are no easy answers as there are disagreements by leaders within churches and denominations. I know of one congregation with three leaders each having different views (divorce/remarriage possible for more than just adultery/fornication; divorce/remarriage only for adultery; and no remarriage, no matter the reason for divorce).
I again want to thank you for the initial post. It is a difficult topic which, as evidenced on this thread, causes much controversy. There is healing and assurance in Scripture for those who are experiencing or have experienced failure in a marriage. Yes, there are people from all walks that stand ready to condemn and inflict more pain on the hurting person who may be the victim of a spouse that breaks vows. Thankfully, the Heavenly Father will bring each of us through the trials we experience and make the most of it (Romans 8:28).
Know that if you have gone through divorce as a Christian or a non-Christian, whether you "caused" the divorce or were the victim of the other spouse's failure to uphold the wedding vows, God still loves you and will forgive you of your sin(s). 1 John 1:9
If you are unsure if you have Biblical grounds for remarriage, seek Godly counsel from your pastor. Proverbs 11:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall:
but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 12 Jun, 2012 01:25 AM
Teach ib and paul,
You give advice that sounds good to the readers of this forum such as:
If you are unsure that you have biblical grounds for remarriage then consult your pastor - there is wisdom in a multitude of counselors.
Yes well this is true except the ask your pastor bit!!!
Do you realize that pastors don't agree on the same thing doctrinally????
People will get a different answer from them based on denomination and their own character!
That is not a nugget or good advice at all based on my next point!!!!!
True answer is to :
LISTEN TO ALL THAT THE FATHER YAHWEH AND SON YAHUSHUA SAYS CONCERNING TRUTH AND GET IN LINE WITH WHAT THEY SAY thats written in the word!!!
Test all things and see whether they be of Yahweh!
Don't look to a man's teaching or your own experiences unless they line up with scripture!!!!
This is a true experience: My ex-wive committed adultery and went back into the world clubbing and partying and thinking she missed out on something? She left and had no remorse for sin at all though I did the three witness thing and she wouldnt appear before the whole assembly (ashamed to face true witnesses standing on the word). You know she would even talk to some pastors at different churches and only retained or quoted those that agreed with her in her sin or where she lied to them outright or wouldnt mention she was in adultery. In fact in one marriage counseling session her own pastor from her own church told her to go do what she was going to do that jesus would forgive her( knowing she was whor-ing, clubbing, and partying and taking off leaving the 2 small children with whoever as I found out coming home from work and had to track down my children etc.) That doing of hers was taking my children to one man's house after another after she left.( I lost in court on sole custody because I was told immorality( had her in adultery on film and 2 different privates eyes as witness) didn't make for an unfit mother and she was granted primary and of course I paid tremendous child support that never went on my children hardly ever and I had to even supply additional $ directly to give them healthcare, clothes, food, etc. My ex went from one man to another and one house to another taking my children and giving them no security all the while the court saw no fault in it. I protected my children from these new men legally and physically because the state's laws don't protect children unless there is proof on film as I was told by the court ( I am no wimp nor coward especially over protecting my children). You wouldn't believe what my children went through! My oldest son is gay because someone did something to him and he won't tell. He's embarressed to come around me. I finally got my daughter when she was near 16 over a domestic disturbance the ex had with one man and my daughter is now with me secure and loved! She is very godly! Yet the ex has been married 3 times committing adultery in every marriage she was in and she is still legally married to the 3rd so called husband but with a current boyfriend. She is now an alcoholic, she has let herself go=she was very beautiful and 7 years younger than me. and Yet she looks 10 years older than me. Sin is very hard and wearing on the body! I'm not bitter at all. I hate it for my children but I don't miss her at all. I have had many women ( beautiful too but thats not that important) interested but it is hard to find a true believer. Cause you see I met my ex at the Jesus 1990 festival in Orlando Fla. She was on fire for the lord back then and for several years in our marriage but then a complete 180 degree turn one day after reconnecting with old friends from her past. She doesn't even care about the things of Yahweh at all and doesn't want to hear it either! She loves her sin more by her own words!
My point: Salvation is a free gift but we have to endure til the end to be saved as Yahshua said!
All that you said about the verses for salvation are true teach ib. Yet, there are sins that Yahushua himself warned his people about while here that it would be better to go to heaven with 1 hand than hell with 2! He said we have to cut off whatever is making us sin in other words. PROOF: He warns about taking a man or woman's name out of the book of life for taking away from the words of this prophecy written in this book(whole bible or only the book of Revelation or both) in the 22 chapter vs 19 of Revelation= New testament and he's talking to believers= the seven assemblies or (churches) that believe. The bible scholars are torn over whether its the whole word of Yahweh or just the book of Revelation that Yahweh is talking about.
There is a balance on the Word of Yahweh and you can't concentrate on just the assurance passages with out considering the warning passages.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 12 Jun, 2012 01:40 AM
Teach ib, I liked Dan Corner's teaching it was a good refutation and I don't even know him. You also didn't disprove what he was saying with his scriptures presented from the New Testament either.
When it comes to salvation there is a balance! When someone returns to sin and is given three witnesses and brought before the whole assembly ( if they will do it)
Yahushua said to count them as an unbeliever!
15 �If your brother or sister[a] sins,[b] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that �every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.�[c] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Footnotes:a.Matthew 18:15 The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a fellow disciple, whether man or woman; also in verses 21 and 35.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 12 Jun, 2012 01:43 AM
Teach ib, all the scriptures on assurance of salvation are true and they're in the New Testament. However, they do not disprove all the warning passages that are in the New Testament that are as much in fact scripture as the ones you posted. Your scriptures are no more annointed than the ones I posted.
There is a balance somewhere and you are missing it big time!
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 12 Jun, 2012 02:01 AM
paul, you hope I leave this post and I will in due time when I feel released by the Yahweh and get confirmationl in my Spirit.
You can try to dismiss me all you want but you have no idea of my background, education,qualifications etc. Nor more importantly the gifts I move in and where they have made room for me at! They are just as important as any you move in!!! The only danger is that we must rightly divide the word of truth.
I want to point out to you that the bible scholars=yes scholars- they don't have the same definition of what you have concluded Matthew 19 vs 11 nor vs 12. there definition is not as liberal as yours.
In fact they are saying the all that should recieve it are true believers.
I invite you to investigate this paul. You can't lean to your own understanding. I test all my doctrine with scripture and other learned men of Yahweh and their interpretations of it. I am a Nazarene Israelite=We believe in holiness, truth, no compromise, Saturday Sabbath, and we don't buy into the lie of eternal security. I do listen to christian teachings but I test them all in fact any teachings.
Yahushua didn't call believers christians by the way he always referred to us as Israel!
