Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 2 Feb, 2012 11:28 PM
Thanks to a question about divorce and remarriage posted on another thread, I felt the need to address those on this site who may be suffering from the weight of guilt and condemnation heaped on them because of their reasons for divorce.
I wrote the following article, "The Stone Thrower", based on actual instances that happened on this site. If you are one of those who have been ostracized by others for having an "Unbiblical Divorce," please take the time to read. May it minister to your heart.
The Stone Thrower
I want to touch on a subject today that has long been regarded in Christendom as taboo . . . and that is . . . DIVORCE. Mention that word around some Christians and their hackles suddenly go up on the back of their neck. They pull out their proverbial stones ready to put to death anyone who they think has been un-biblically divorced. And to my shame, I was one of them�a stone thrower.
We all know the story of the woman caught in adultery in John 8:3-11. The scribes and Pharisees (the religious self-righteous) had arrested this woman and dragged her before Jesus. One has to wonder how these Pharisees caught such a woman "in the very act" of adultery. How convenient for them. It's amazing the depths of depravity the self-righteous will sink to in order to defend their religious arguments. Did they have the paparazzi spy on her to get some juicy pictures for the whole world to see?
At any rate, they dragged this poor woman in front of Jesus and proudly proclaimed, "Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?" (John 8:5)
Zowie!! These men can quote the Word of God . . . at least the parts that suit their fancy.
I like our Lord's reaction. "But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear" (John 8:6b).
Don't you just love it when someone ignores you . . . especially when you're trying to win an argument? But the self-righteous rarely lie down without a fight, and those religious Pharisees were determined to prove that they had the "truth." So they continued pestering Jesus, knowing that the Law of Moses was on their side. It's not a good idea to pester Jesus, especially when it comes to "pointing a finger" at someone.
"So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, 'He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.' And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. Then those who heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning from the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst" (John 8:7-9).
This introductory story of the woman caught in adultery has a purpose: I wanted you to have a glimpse of the mentality of a "stone thrower." They are usually self-righteous, ready to condemn, and can quote the Word of God. Ouch . . . I just described me.
I had a clear cut answer for the reasons one might give to justify divorce which I thought was quite Biblical. And in my mind, there was only one reason . . . "But I say to you, that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except for sexual immorality, causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery" (Matthew 5:32). There you have it�plain and simple. Who could argue with such a statement? It is the Word of God! I thought I had the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth . . . yet the truth is . . . I was ignorant of the ways of God. "For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment" (James 2:13).
And it was in my ignorance to God's ways that I threw stones at the divorced ladies on a Christian dating site some time ago. As a widower, I was on this site looking for a prospective wife. I was so appalled at the amount of women who were divorced on this site whose reasons for separating from their husbands did not match my view of scripture. In order to protect myself from these "contaminated souls," I purposely wrote something in my profile for those that I would consider as wife material: "You may be single, widowed, or divorced (must be for Biblical reasons only)."
When I would communicate with these divorced ladies, I would immediately ask them to provide details on the reason for their divorce. If they could not give me an answer of infidelity as the reason for their divorce, then I considered them unmarriageable. Yet God has a way of grabbing His child's attention when that child is in error.
One of the ladies on this dating site told me her story of divorce after I demanded it. Her husband was deep in bondage to pornography and had no interest whatsoever in repentance. The man had not physically hopped into bed with another woman, and so in my self-righteousness, I condemned the poor wife for wanting to opt out on the marriage. And the "stones" that I threw created fresh wounds in her heart while she recounted those painful memories of her husband's infidelity as he lusted after porn. According to Jesus' own words, her husband WAS GUILTY of adultery: "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5:28). I ignored that scripture and concentrated only on Matthew 5:32. She lashed out at me, saying that she was glad Jesus did not condemn her even if I did. I have to admit, I was shaken by her story which moved me to tears.
Then there was another lady whom I demanded to give an account for her divorce. I threw "stones" at her as well when she could not give me a reason of infidelity for her separation. In bitter anger, she struck back at me, stating how her husband had broken her nose and physically abused her. I ignored the scripture which reads, "But God has called us to peace" (1 Corinthians 7:15b) and concentrated again on Matthew 5:32. However, her story bothered me very much just like the other woman's.
I began to seek God earnestly. These were only two of the many ladies who shared with me their heartbreaking stories of divorce. There were so many reasons given for divorce and none of them fell under sexual immorality (fornication) as I saw it. I sincerely asked the Lord to open my eyes. Was there any scriptural evidence to support these women's choices to opt out of a marriage other than infidelity? Yes, there was.
God led me to Matthew 19:3-12. The Pharisees were looking for a reason to trap Jesus in His words. Their previous scheme had not worked with the woman caught in adultery. However, if they could just get Jesus to say something contradictory to the Law of Moses, then they could brand Him as a heretic. So they asked Jesus this question, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?" (Matthew 19:3b)
Jesus' answer was, and still is, God's original intention for marriage: "Have you not read . . . the two shall become one flesh? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate" (Matthew 19:5b-6).
The Pharisees did not like His answer. For Jesus had taken them right back to Genesis before there ever was a Moses or a Law of Moses so that they could hear what GOD SAYS about marriage. Yet the stiff-necked Pharisees persisted with another question: "Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?" (Matthew 19:7)
Jesus responds, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so" (Matthew 19:8).
The self-righteous Pharisees were using the Law of Moses as an excuse to bail out on marriages for any flippant reason. And because of this, the Lord had some very strong words for them. "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery" (Matthew 19:9).
I can just hear the stone throwers shouting, "See, I told you . . . it's right there in the word . . . 'sexual immorality!'"
Wait a minute. Like Paul Harvey, let's hear "the rest of the story" before jumping to any conclusions. After verse 9 comes verse 10. Even Jesus' disciples, which would include us, were amazed at the words of Jesus. "His disciples said to Him, 'If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry'" (Matthew 19:10). Yeah, I can see their point. If sexual immorality (fornication) is the only reason for divorce, then perhaps we are better off not getting married.
But look at Jesus' response to his own disciples in verse 11. It stands to reason that if the disciples' statement was true, then Jesus would have said something to affirm it as such. He does not!
"But He said to them, 'All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given'" (Matthew 19:11).
What saying? The saying in verse 9 of course. NOT ALL can accept the saying that fornication is the ONLY reason for divorce.
Now notice that Jesus goes on to explain what He meant with the following verse:
"For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother's womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it" (Matthew 19:12).
What did Jesus mean by this? He tells us that three different men all became eunuchs for different reasons. One was born a eunuch, another was made a eunuch by men, and still another made himself that way for the kingdom of heaven. They all became eunuchs for different reasons, but who is to say which eunuch is "God approved"? God accepted them all. That's the point!
Likewise, there are many reasons someone might seek a divorce: physical and verbal abuse from a spouse . . . being married to an unbeliever who makes life a literal hell . . . marital unfaithfulness . . . the stress of being married to an alcoholic for 23 years . . . or living with a pornographer who refuses to repent. Which one of these reasons for divorce is "God approved"? That's the point Jesus was making. Just as the eunuchs were acceptable to God regardless of how they became a eunuch, so also is a woman acceptable to God who seeks to be free from an abusive husband, even if infidelity is not involved. You and I cannot see in the heart of that abused person . . . but God can. For God has called them to peace.
And the church has done more harm counselling emotionally and physically battered women to stay in a relationship citing Matthew 5:32 "except for sexual immorality" as the only just cause for divorce. Women have actually committed suicide and murder under the stress of remaining in an abusive situation because their legalistic church counseled them to do so.
You may have heard of the case in the U.S. where a lady killed her husband (a pastor) who had been abusing her for years. God had called her to peace . . . but she never knew it, and one day she snapped. The evidence of abuse was so overwhelming that the courts found this woman not guilty of murder by reason of insanity.
I certainly do not want to imply that people should take their marriage so lightly as to divorce for every whim and fancy. I would not condone that, and neither does the Word of God. Every marriage will have its share of problems which can be worked out with God's help by two committed individuals. Yet there are some women, especially those suffering physical and mental abuse, who have reached the tipping point of no return; and the only thing they can do to preserve their sanity is to get out of that marriage. And ultimately, it is to the Lord they answer to, not you or me. He has called them to peace.
After God opened my eyes to the truth of scripture, I contacted those ladies on the dating site who I had thrown "stones" at and apologized profusely. I was truly grieved that I had been so self-righteous and blind, wounding those precious sisters for whom Christ died.
Now back to the story that I began with. The "stone throwers" had already dropped their rocks and left the scene with a guilty conscience, leaving Jesus alone with the adulterous woman.
"He said to her, 'Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?'"
"She said, 'No one, Lord.'"
"And Jesus said to her, 'Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more'" (John 8:10b-11).
HALLELUJAH�MERCY TRIUMPHS OVER JUDGMENT!!!
Blessings in Christ Jesus,
Paul Janz
(All Scripture quotations are taken from the Holy Bible, New King James Version.)
"The Stone Thrower" Copyright � 2010 by Paul Janz.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 10 Jun, 2012 12:47 AM
For any on this forum who want to test all things here's a teaching from Dan Corner with scripture references that you won't hear at most churches. I believe it warrants testing! Please read and critique.
Eternal Security And
The Sin Unto Death
Dan Corner
[Permission is granted to duplicate this article in its entirety,
but only without additions, alterations or omissions of any kind,
including the author, ministry name and address at the end.
Nothing may be removed from this page including links to other pages.]
You will probably never hear any eternal security teacher say outrightly their doctrine is a license for immorality. In fact, they will most often flatly deny this charge sometimes to the point of yelling slander. However, there are still various ways these people teach this very thing they hate to be identified with. Certainly one is through their twisted version of the sin unto death. The apostle John wrote of this sin:
If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death. (1 John 5:16,17).
Clearly, there is sin unto death. Whatever type of death this is, is not clearly identified in that passage. However, the eternal security teachers like to draw our attention to 1 Cor. 11:27-30 to teach on the sin unto death:
Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.
And to that they sometimes add the deaths of Ananias and Sapphira as specific examples of the sin unto death:
Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God." When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. Then the young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him. About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, "Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?" "Yes," she said, "that is the price." Peter said to her, "How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also." At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband (Acts 5:3-10).
To Them Death Is Always Physical
To the eternal security teachers death will always be physical death, such as mentioned in 1 Cor. 11:30 and Acts 5:3-10. While it is undeniable truth that God gets so angry over sin that he kills people because of it, there is another truth related to this that the eternal security teachers will always deny - that sin can bring a Christian to his spiritual death. Hence, just like Adam and Eve who died spiritually because of their sin, as God warned (Gen. 2:17), Christians can experience the same. God didn't kill them physically, but they did die spiritually. For them it was a sin unto death in a spiritual sense.
From the eternal security perspective, when a person once saved dies physically, he goes to heaven. How such people are living at that point is inconsequential, even if God would kill them physically because of their unrepentant heinous sins. This clearly spells out a license for immorality and that is their poisonous understanding of the sin unto death.
Dave Hunt's License For Immorality
Please note what Dave Hunt teaches about this as he comments on the 1 Cor. 11 passage and the sin unto death:
For this cause, some of you are weak and sickly and some of you sleep; some of you died because God has brought judgment upon you for the way you have conducted yourselves and so forth. So I think what he's saying is, there are some sins that are so heinous and not only heinous but perhaps I think it depends upon the position that a person has that brings reproach upon Christ and God takes them home for that.(1)
Judgment or Blessing?
To be consistent with his license for immorality or his security-in-sin gospel, commonly called eternal security (once saved always saved, the perseverance of the saints or the preservation of the saints), Dave Hunt must always teach the way just cited. Question for Dave Hunt (and all other eternal security people):
What kind of punishment is this that God would kill a person because of their unrepentant heinous sins and take them out of this cursed environment filled with sin, injustice and pain to a beautiful paradise where joy, peace, truth, righteousness, etc. will be?
For Paul, to live was Christ and die was gain and better by far (Phil. 1:21-23), but these "blind guides" want us to think we can live for self, sin and the devil and die in those sins and still go to heaven. Hence, death isn't really a punishment at all, but a blessing and gain for their hatred of God and wickedness.
To look at this in another way, one can therefore backslide into heinous sin and wickedness, absolutely refuse to repent even though disciplined and get blessed by the thrice holy God for his unyielding stubborn rebellion when God strikes him dead in his holy wrath and anger. Dear reader, if you ponder the horrible conclusion produced by the eternal security teachers, you will have to agree that their version of the sin unto death is nothing more than a deadly, religious myth yielding an opportunity to live in wild rebellion to God - a license for immorality.
Hunt And The Calvinists - Close Associates
The so-called Berean Dave Hunt is not alone with these Scriptural fabrications and distortions about the sin unto death. Hunt has the staunch Calvinists as his close companions and co-laborers on the sin unto death, even though he claims to oppose Calvinism! Please note what Calvinist, D. James Kennedy has likewise written about the sin unto death:
I think back many years ago of a man in this church who was engaged in adultery - a man who had been a minster [sic] and had left the ministry, but a man who seemed to be a godly man - a man who seemed to be a Christian. Only God knows the heart. He became involved with a married woman. He was going to have her divorce her husband and marry him. I admonished him and urged him to repent. He was brought before the discipline committee and they admonished him to repent. He was suspended from the sacraments, but he did not repent. Finally, the Session determined that since he remained impenitent, they would have to excommunicate this man from the church. Just before that happened, God pulled his string and suddenly that young man died.
These are just some of the unlimited, infinite ways God can chasten those who are truly His own, who do not repent of their sins. My friends, we need to take the warnings seriously because they are very real.(2)
So Hunt and the Calvinists are identical twins regarding the sin unto death, because they both teach eternal security, that is, once a person becomes saved he will always remain saved regardless how far into wickedness he may go and remain.
Calvinism's Christian Adulterers
Kennedy's message comes through loud and clear regarding his so-called doctrines of grace. He is indirectly saying by his story that Christian adulterers do exist. In contrast to this deadly doctrinal myth, the Bible speaks of only one type of adulterer and he is always shown as one who will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9,10), but instead will be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev. 21:8), unless he repents. But the eternal security teachers don't think this person has to repent for salvation. He will still get to heaven and escape hell in his unrepentant adultery or heinous sins, because he was once saved! How God must hate this deadly lie which has multitudes deceived.
At times Kennedy's Calvinism will have him declare the elect will endure in holiness to the end, but then he turns right around and blatantly teaches his sin unto death yarn. Doesn't Kennedy know that dying in adultery is not enduring to the end in holiness? Clearly, this is a doctrine of demons, which Christians must oppose!
God Lovers and God Haters
Dear eternal security reader, don't let yourself be deceived by popular teachers of our hour and from yesteryear who have changed grace into a license for immorality, as just proven. This should be apparent now after considering what both types of eternal security teachers have said about the sin unto death. Their deadly version of grace allows or permits all forms of unrepentant wickedness for those that get regenerated. In contrast, the Bible says the following:
However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" (1 Cor 2:9).
Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? (James 2:5)
In other words, those who actually enter God's kingdom love God. (This is the real issue, not if God loves them.) To love God we must obey him (John 14:15,21,23,24; 1 John 5:3). Moreover, not to love Jesus is to be unsaved:
If anyone does not love the Lord, he is to be accursed. Maranatha. (1 Cor 16:22)
Clearly, one is not loving God if he is in such sins as those just taught under the sin unto death by the well-known Hunt and Kennedy. Jesus taught:
He who does not love me will not obey my teaching .... (John 14:24)
God promises to kill those who hate him/his adversaries:
See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand. I lift my hand to heaven and declare: As surely as I live forever, when I sharpen my flashing sword and my hand grasps it in judgment, I will take vengeance on my adversaries and repay those who hate me. (Deut 32:39-41)
Furthermore, Hebrews 10:26,27 say:
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
Did you notice that one becomes an enemy of God by turning to willful sin (or deliberate sin), the very thing that Hunt's and Kennedy's teachings allow for without jeopardizing salvation, with their sin unto death. Also, Heb. 10:27 says the fury of fire (or raging fire) will consume God's adversaries. How much more clear can it get? The ones killed by God because of their deliberate sinning go to the fires of Hell.
Also, the true Christian is clearly called by the term saint, which means holy one. Since sin can make a holy person unholy again (1 Tim. 5:22; Rev. 3:4; etc.), and therefore unfit for entrance into the kingdom of God (Mt. 5:8; Heb. 12:14; Rom. 6:22; etc.), then these eternal security teachers are dangerously downplaying the effects of sin in the life of a Christian. Souls are at risk because of their fables, including the sin unto death myth.
The Real Truth
The real truth is a true Christian can sin in such a way as to bring him back into spiritual death and endanger him to the lake of fire again (James 1:14-16; 5:19,20; Luke 15:24,32; Gal. 5:19-21; 6:8,9; Rom. 6:16; 8:13; Rev. 2:10,11; etc.). This is the real sin unto death, as mentioned by the Apostle John. Moreover, if God in his holy wrath strikes someone dead because of his unrepentant adultery he will go to hell, not heaven, with other God haters as already shown in Hebrews. This was basic knowledge in first century Christianity, though popularly denied in our dark day by those who maintain their security-in-sin gospel and license for immorality.
Repent For Your Salvation's Sake
Dear reader, if you think you can live in heinous sin, as Hunt and Kennedy wants all to believe, and still be on the road to heaven, you have been dangerously deceived. You must repent (turn from sin) or you will find yourself being thrown into the lake of fire in the end. You are not just jeopardizing your physical life, rewards, etc. as they say, but it is your very soul that is endangered. Don't be deceived about the sin unto death or anything else they say which allows for wickedness and salvation at the same time.
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil .... (1 John 3:7,8)
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 10 Jun, 2012 09:53 AM
teach ib . . ."I would say that Paul is saying Amen to my posts because they are refuting Singer and your posts. God's Word speaks for itself which is why I rely upon it." . . ..A BIG AMEN to that!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
teach ib, your posts are excellent, rightly dividing the word of truth. And I must say, you are far more gracious to BobBobbins and Singer4u then they deserve. Here are a few of your posts that bear repeating again and again and again:
"Bob,
You and Singer accuse Paul and me about not addressing your questions. So instead of one massive response, I chose to break my responses into smaller chunks to make it clear.
You still do not understand the definition of schizophrenic...otherwise, you would not use it in the sense you are trying to infer.
As for the police officer incident...the police officer has the option of showing mercy on me...while I may have broken the law, he has the choice of giving me a ticket or not....I've experienced both. So in the case of God, He can chose how He may punish me for any sin I may commit...or as was demonstrated throughout the Bible, God may chose NOT to punish me for my sin. Since God is a just God, He must punish sin with death...Romans6:23a "For the wages of sin is death..."
However, Romans 5:8 " But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.". Christ paid the death penalty. So Romans 6:23b "...but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." was given to me when Romans 10:13 "For whosever shall call upon the name of the Lord SHALL be saved.". There's no maybes or strings attached there...no further conditions to be saved."
"So then Bob, since I am saved by the grace of God, I am not under (judged) by the law...
John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Romans5 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
What is justification? God's act of declaring or making a sinner righteous through Christ's atoning sacrifice...just as if I never sinned.
Romans 6 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Galatians 5 1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."
"These are the commandments I follow...as Christ instructed.
Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these."
"You wrote: "Let me be clear - keeping the law of Yahweh makes one a lawful citizen of His kingdom. It does not make one a "legalist""
You're right, keeping the law does not make one a legalists; however, holding rigidly to laws and not showing mercy like Christ did/does, makes one a legalist.
I'm sure I could find some sin you are guilty of and proclaim the punishment listed in the Bible...as did the Pharisees in the original post of this thread. I choose not to look at or for your sins because I am not without sin so I will not cast stones."
"Now, you are taking cover behind a woman's skirt. Paul, I am challenging you to come out from behind that skirt, read the posts that I have written to you that directly refute your article, put down your stones, quit name calling, be a man and defend your article. Can you do that?"
For the record, No one is hiding behind my skirt...once again you are talking about me without knowledge of me. I haven't had a skirt on since I started posting in this thread...and last I checked, even if I did have a skirt on, no one is hiding behind me.
I would say that Paul is saying Amen to my posts because they are refuting Singer and your posts. God's Word speaks for itself which is why I rely upon it.
You both claim that you rely on God's Word but you add your own, or in many cases, other people's words and interpretations. There is nothing inherently wrong with providing your interpretation of Scripture...but when you insinuate you are more qualified to make that interpretation, you are crossing the line.
Again, you have no idea what I have studied, where I have studied, or what my qualifications are...and I'm pretty sure you don't know that about Paul either.
I deal with people in many lines of work that have a "better than thou" attitude...and they more often than not prove their own lack of knowledge or how to apply that knowledge in the situation they are in"
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 10 Jun, 2012 09:55 AM
Singer4u says . . . "I wish you and I could be in a boxing ring for 3 rounds with the gloves on! There I would knock some sense into you! Call it the laying on of hands ministry! LOL"
God's Word says . . ."A fool's lips enter into contention, and his mouth calls for blows" (Proverbs 18:6).
BobBobbins and Singer4u. There's really nothing more to be said to you that has not already been said. So I will continue to repeat it until you hopefully get the message.
So BobBobbins and Singer4u, you have been weighed in the balances and found wanting. Your accusations are unfounded and your interpretations of my article incorrect. Stone throwers all have something in common: They are usually self-righteous, ready to condemn, and can quote the Word of God. They boast in the keeping of the letter of the law while ignoring the weightier matters of justice, mercy and faith. And besides all this, they have one other notable characteristic . . . they are hypocrites. Matthew 23:23-28.
I have been FALSELY accused by you both, implying that I said Jesus sinned. I never said Jesus sinned. YOU DID! You made the ASSUMPTION that Jesus would have sinned if He had broken the Sabbath--I DID NOT. All I said was Jesus broke the Sabbath. Then you drew out your proverbial stones and said the following:
BobBobbins says, "Jesus never broke the sabbath. If he had done so, he would not have been able to fulfill the law. Your salvation could not have occurred. I am not sure where you get such ridiculous ideas. That is completely absurd and totally false."
My response: Absurd and totally false? . . .Really? "Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said God was His Father" (John 5:18). According to the apostle John, who wrote that scripture under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . .Jesus broke the Sabbath.
Singer4u says, "Paul and Goldenfaith both said in their writings on this forum that Yahushua broke Sabbath. That is impossible! You two should know better than that and to say it is total heresy!!! YOU ARE SAYING HE SINNED!"
My response: heresy? . . .really? "Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said God was His Father" (John 5:18). According to the apostle John, who wrote that scripture under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . .Jesus broke the Sabbath.
It is very clear in the Word of God that Jesus BROKE the Sabbath. It also says in the Word of God that Jesus NEVER sinned. I have no problem with both scriptures. It is you, Singer4u and BobBobbins, who have exalted yourselves above the Word of God to add your own interpretation to John 5:18. You both claim that Jesus could not have broken the Sabbath. Since when does your word override God's Word? You claim to be defenders of the Word, yet you are woefully ignorant of it.
"And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, 'Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!'"
But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him:
"how he entered the house of God and ate the showbread which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?
"Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?
"Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple.
"But if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' you would have not condemned the guiltless.
"For the Son of Man is LORD even of the Sabbath." (Matthew 12:2-8)
Oh yes, Jesus broke the Sabbath, but He never sinned. He was WORKING on the Sabbath healing people, but He never sinned, for He was doing exactly what the Father told Him to do. JESUS IS LORD even of the Sabbath.
And now in regards to Singer4u and BobBobbins adamant stand on the reasons for divorce. Both of you have ignored Jesus' Word spoken in Matthew 19:11:
"But He said to them, 'All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given'"
You both ignore Jesus' Word spoken in Matthew 19:11 and quote only Matthew 19:9. Hypocrites! Is Jesus' Word spoken in verse 11 any less anointed than verse 9? You blind guides, you strain out a gnat and swallow a camel. Jesus said, ALL CANNOT ACCEPT the saying that fornication is the only reason for divorce, 'but only those to whom it has been given.'"
So Singer4u and BobBobbins accept that fornication is the only reason for divorce. Good for you. That's between you and God. Jesus said "ALL CANNOT ACCEPT THIS SAYING." And whether you like it or not, Singer4u and BobBobbins, the LORD JESUS makes it clear that He accepts other believers who have views on divorce contrary to yours.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 10 Jun, 2012 11:07 AM
I don't care what paul's or teach ib's background is on studying and affiliated church doctrine etc.
However , what is it that makes what they says in error?
ITS WHAT THEY FAILS TO SAY OR ADDRESS FROM THE BIBLE!!!
There are many more passages in the bible than just the ones that say we are saved! There are those that warn us of returning to a life of sin or in not turning from it!!!
It will be more than a loss of rewards!!!
I am not promoting myself here at all! However I'm not the least bit inferior to any here or otherwise in knowledge of the scriptures.
I believe we are to examine all the verses in the bible and get Yahweh's full counsel.
Notice these two quote things pertaining to salvation being a permanent thing whether you do adultery, homosexuality,murder, lie , steal, blaspheme , etc.
I have shown clearly that there are scriptures that say otherwise.
There are denominations that say we are saved no matter what and then those that say if we live no differently than the world we won't stay saved.
Somebody's right and somebody's wrong! Both can't be correct!!!
If you live on just a mental acknowledgement of belief in Yahweh it will gain you nothing! The demons make a mental acknowledgement of belief in Yahweh and they tremble. I have shown in my posts of the proof that belief is marriage vows and betrothal to Yahushaua the Messiah. We dare not break them!!!!!!! Are we will be of the five foolish virgins who were locked out of the bridal chamber not the five wise who entered in because they had enough oil(Holy Spirit=Wisdom)!!!
Singer4u says . . . "I wish you and I could be in a boxing ring for 3 rounds with the gloves on! There I would knock some sense into you! Call it the laying on of hands ministry! LOL"
God's Word says . . ."A FOOL'S lips enter into contention, and his MOUTH calls for blows" (Proverbs 18:6).
BobBobbins and Singer4u. There's really nothing more to be said to you that has not already been said. So I will continue to repeat it until you hopefully get the message.
So BobBobbins and Singer4u, you have been weighed in the balances and found wanting. Your accusations are unfounded and your interpretations of my article incorrect. Stone throwers all have something in common: They are usually self-righteous, ready to condemn, and can quote the Word of God. They boast in the keeping of the letter of the law while ignoring the weightier matters of justice, mercy and faith. And besides all this, they have one other notable characteristic . . . they are hypocrites. Matthew 23:23-28.
I have been FALSELY accused by you both, implying that I said Jesus sinned. I never said Jesus sinned. YOU DID! You made the ASSUMPTION that Jesus would have sinned if He had broken the Sabbath--I DID NOT. All I said was Jesus broke the Sabbath. Then you drew out your proverbial stones and said the following:
BobBobbins says, "Jesus never broke the sabbath. If he had done so, he would not have been able to fulfill the law. Your salvation could not have occurred. I am not sure where you get such ridiculous ideas. That is completely absurd and totally false."
My response: Absurd and totally false? . . .Really? "Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said God was His Father" (John 5:18). According to the apostle John, who wrote that scripture under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . .Jesus broke the Sabbath.
Singer4u says, "Paul and Goldenfaith both said in their writings on this forum that Yahushua broke Sabbath. That is impossible! You two should know better than that and to say it is total heresy!!! YOU ARE SAYING HE SINNED!"
My response: heresy? . . .really? "Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said God was His Father" (John 5:18). According to the apostle John, who wrote that scripture under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . .Jesus broke the Sabbath.
It is very clear in the Word of God that Jesus BROKE the Sabbath. It also says in the Word of God that Jesus NEVER sinned. I have no problem with both scriptures. It is you, Singer4u and BobBobbins, who have exalted yourselves above the Word of God to add your own interpretation to John 5:18. You both claim that Jesus could not have broken the Sabbath. Since when does your word override God's Word? You claim to be defenders of the Word, yet you are woefully ignorant of it.
"And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, 'Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!'"
But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him:
"how he entered the house of God and ate the showbread which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?
"Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?
"Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple.
"But if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' you would have not condemned the guiltless.
"For the Son of Man is LORD even of the Sabbath." (Matthew 12:2-8)
Oh yes, Jesus broke the Sabbath, but He never sinned. He was WORKING on the Sabbath healing people, but He never sinned, for He was doing exactly what the Father told Him to do. JESUS IS LORD even of the Sabbath.
And now in regards to Singer4u and BobBobbins adamant stand on the reasons for divorce. Both of you have ignored Jesus' Word spoken in Matthew 19:11:
"But He said to them, 'All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given'"
You both ignore Jesus' Word spoken in Matthew 19:11 and quote only Matthew 19:9. Hypocrites! Is Jesus' Word spoken in verse 11 any less anointed than verse 9? You blind guides, you strain out a gnat and swallow a camel. Jesus said, ALL CANNOT ACCEPT the saying that fornication is the only reason for divorce, 'but only those to whom it has been given.'"
So Singer4u and BobBobbins accept that fornication is the only reason for divorce. Good for you. That's between you and God. Jesus said "ALL CANNOT ACCEPT THIS SAYING." And whether you like it or not, Singer4u and BobBobbins, the LORD JESUS makes it clear that He accepts other believers who have views on divorce contrary to yours.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 10 Jun, 2012 04:15 PM
Thanks paul for reposting those truths I said about my self they're true!
paul says that I am a phariess cause he says I quote the law?
People of this forum please check all my postings and you will find that all the warning passages I quote are New Testament! I only reference parallels from the old testament for clarity concerning the warning passages.
This shows how ignorant and unstudied paul is and also why he fails to try to explain them to any of us! He says its all law and I'm a stone thrower. New Testament isn't the law it is the conditions of fullfilment that Yahushua accomplished on the cross to fulfill the law.
It is apparent by his fruit that he is lacking a backbone to stand up for all the new testament.
Thats all I'm trying to do. Present the facts!!!
The facts are I am quoting all pertinent passages he didn't include in his stone throwers thesis = It fails to cover all aspects and possibilities cited in the Word of Yahweh. He builds his whole premise and doctrine on mercy triumphs over judgement and the story of the woman caught in adultery. he didn't quote to you the warnings Messiah himself stated that warn against adultery and unscriptural remmarriage. Nor the warnings cited by the Apostles Paul and Peter nor from the book of Hebrews and 1 John about the sin unto death.
Adultery is a sin unto death= you got stoned for it and now if you are in it under the new covenant you get counted as an Idolator having other gods!
IS THERE MERCY FOR PEOPLE WHO DID THESE HEINOUS SINS SUCH AS ADULTERY?????
YES. HOWEVER THERE HAS TO BE TRUE REPENTANCE AND NO YOU CAN'T BE IN AN UNSCRIPTURAL MARRIAGE THAT YAHWEH CALLS ADULTERY IF YOU COMMITTED ADULTERY AGAINST A BELIEVING MATE AND THEY WON'T TAKE YOU BACK. WHY YOU ASK? bECAUSE YOU GET A SPIRITUAL DEATH SENTANCE AND WHEN Y7OU ARE COUNTED AS THE LIVING DEAD IN YOUR TRESSPASS AND SIN YOUR MATE IS FREE TO REMARRY BY YOUR DEATH IDOLATRY AND ADULTERY ARE THE SAME WORD IN HEBREW=NAAPH. Romans 7:1-3 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.
1 Corinthians 7:39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in Yahweh
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 10 Jun, 2012 04:40 PM
People of this forum I want to say that I love you enough to tell you the truth and not lie to you nor deceive you.
I want all of you to be in Yahweh's kingdom
I do not preach a works salvation that paul and teach ib accuse me of.
I teach obediance to Yahweh's commandments. Obediance is not a work! I also don'y preach that you have to labor in works to keep it.
However I do preach caution to obey and only do what the word allows you to do. Then you can't go wrong.
Consider this: What if once saved always saved is a lie?
What if there are things you can do to lose it?
II Peter 1 vs 10 :
New American Standard Bible (�1995)
Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble
paul is so confident he's right on his stone thrower thesis he prints it over and over with no effort to add the necessary associated scriptures having to do with marriage, remarriage, and covering what is or is not adultery all commanded by Messiah himself. paul eapects you to believe him and take his word for it? Unbelievable!!!
I provided New Testament warnings all throughout my posts!
A stone thrower is only worried about being right by their own pride and they aren't worried about your well being.
I however, am no stone thrower. I present truth and warn you out of geniune love and regard for your souls!!!! I say obey Yahweh not me nor another. Shalom all that are his and that are Israel!
My parting advice: Don't take paul, or teach ib's word for it nor my own. Take Yahweh's word for it!!!!
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 10 Jun, 2012 06:12 PM
Yesterday I �spent hours at airports, close to 8 hours on an airplane, then caught up with my family who I was apart from for a week, and today I attended services/served in ministries and now have time to appropriately respond to the posts by Singer. �I also spent time researching Dan Corner and the two men Corner thinks he rebuffed, as everyone should do when presented with controversial and pointed remarks.�
Singer, Please realize that the number of exclamation points, exaggerated emphasis placed on points, and ALL CAPS do not make them any more factual. �
Singer, you cite the same verses without taking them in context. �In my next few posts, I will be providing a variety of verses that show the power and mercy of my Heavenly Father who provided assurance of salvation in His Word in the Old and New Testament. �I use both as Jesus quoted from the Old Testament, keeping it relevant.
I want to provide some Definitions of words that are referenced throughout the verses:
Grace: unmerited favor, something one does not deserve�
Mercy: not getting what we deserve (ie not getting a speeding ticket even when we deserve one)
Justify: make right, just...just as if I had not sinned
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 10 Jun, 2012 06:14 PM
Singer, as Goldenfaith pointed out on earlier post...where is King David today? �In Heaven or Hell?
After King David was saved...he committed adultery, then murder, Then married the woman he committed adultery with. �Based on your statement that an adulterer continues in adultery throughout the marriage (continual sin) then King David is in Hell. �However, God said he was a man after His heart. �King David is in Heaven today.
The size of the sin does not matter...a little white lie is a lie and will separate one from God or hinder the relationship between man/woman and God.�
I provided context and proof to your verses. �If you want to practice the belief of having to worry constantly that you might sin after you accepted God's free gift of eternal life and not make it to Heaven...you have the freedom to do that. �I have been freed from sin through the redemption of Jesus. �I am no longer a slave to sin...not chained to it.�
To gain a full understanding of the topics in the Bible, one does have to read and study it and listen to and discern the messages of people who preach and teach. �Without reading the Bible or listening to preaching/teaching, one would NOT understand the concept of tithing...it's not something that is just revealed. �
I encourage everyone to not take my word or anyone else's word alone on any topic as we are only human and God is NOT divinely giving new Scripture to anyone. �God gave us the Bible...preserved it through the generations and persecutions. �I have not and do not claim to perfectly present any topic as I am only human. �However, I search, meditate, and pray about what I post because Unfortunately not everyone will take the time to dig through the Bible.
By the way, the 20+ pages of comments have nothing to do with the length of posts, there are 10 posts per page. �
