Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 2 Feb, 2012 11:28 PM
Thanks to a question about divorce and remarriage posted on another thread, I felt the need to address those on this site who may be suffering from the weight of guilt and condemnation heaped on them because of their reasons for divorce.
I wrote the following article, "The Stone Thrower", based on actual instances that happened on this site. If you are one of those who have been ostracized by others for having an "Unbiblical Divorce," please take the time to read. May it minister to your heart.
The Stone Thrower
I want to touch on a subject today that has long been regarded in Christendom as taboo . . . and that is . . . DIVORCE. Mention that word around some Christians and their hackles suddenly go up on the back of their neck. They pull out their proverbial stones ready to put to death anyone who they think has been un-biblically divorced. And to my shame, I was one of them�a stone thrower.
We all know the story of the woman caught in adultery in John 8:3-11. The scribes and Pharisees (the religious self-righteous) had arrested this woman and dragged her before Jesus. One has to wonder how these Pharisees caught such a woman "in the very act" of adultery. How convenient for them. It's amazing the depths of depravity the self-righteous will sink to in order to defend their religious arguments. Did they have the paparazzi spy on her to get some juicy pictures for the whole world to see?
At any rate, they dragged this poor woman in front of Jesus and proudly proclaimed, "Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?" (John 8:5)
Zowie!! These men can quote the Word of God . . . at least the parts that suit their fancy.
I like our Lord's reaction. "But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear" (John 8:6b).
Don't you just love it when someone ignores you . . . especially when you're trying to win an argument? But the self-righteous rarely lie down without a fight, and those religious Pharisees were determined to prove that they had the "truth." So they continued pestering Jesus, knowing that the Law of Moses was on their side. It's not a good idea to pester Jesus, especially when it comes to "pointing a finger" at someone.
"So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, 'He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.' And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. Then those who heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning from the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst" (John 8:7-9).
This introductory story of the woman caught in adultery has a purpose: I wanted you to have a glimpse of the mentality of a "stone thrower." They are usually self-righteous, ready to condemn, and can quote the Word of God. Ouch . . . I just described me.
I had a clear cut answer for the reasons one might give to justify divorce which I thought was quite Biblical. And in my mind, there was only one reason . . . "But I say to you, that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except for sexual immorality, causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery" (Matthew 5:32). There you have it�plain and simple. Who could argue with such a statement? It is the Word of God! I thought I had the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth . . . yet the truth is . . . I was ignorant of the ways of God. "For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment" (James 2:13).
And it was in my ignorance to God's ways that I threw stones at the divorced ladies on a Christian dating site some time ago. As a widower, I was on this site looking for a prospective wife. I was so appalled at the amount of women who were divorced on this site whose reasons for separating from their husbands did not match my view of scripture. In order to protect myself from these "contaminated souls," I purposely wrote something in my profile for those that I would consider as wife material: "You may be single, widowed, or divorced (must be for Biblical reasons only)."
When I would communicate with these divorced ladies, I would immediately ask them to provide details on the reason for their divorce. If they could not give me an answer of infidelity as the reason for their divorce, then I considered them unmarriageable. Yet God has a way of grabbing His child's attention when that child is in error.
One of the ladies on this dating site told me her story of divorce after I demanded it. Her husband was deep in bondage to pornography and had no interest whatsoever in repentance. The man had not physically hopped into bed with another woman, and so in my self-righteousness, I condemned the poor wife for wanting to opt out on the marriage. And the "stones" that I threw created fresh wounds in her heart while she recounted those painful memories of her husband's infidelity as he lusted after porn. According to Jesus' own words, her husband WAS GUILTY of adultery: "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5:28). I ignored that scripture and concentrated only on Matthew 5:32. She lashed out at me, saying that she was glad Jesus did not condemn her even if I did. I have to admit, I was shaken by her story which moved me to tears.
Then there was another lady whom I demanded to give an account for her divorce. I threw "stones" at her as well when she could not give me a reason of infidelity for her separation. In bitter anger, she struck back at me, stating how her husband had broken her nose and physically abused her. I ignored the scripture which reads, "But God has called us to peace" (1 Corinthians 7:15b) and concentrated again on Matthew 5:32. However, her story bothered me very much just like the other woman's.
I began to seek God earnestly. These were only two of the many ladies who shared with me their heartbreaking stories of divorce. There were so many reasons given for divorce and none of them fell under sexual immorality (fornication) as I saw it. I sincerely asked the Lord to open my eyes. Was there any scriptural evidence to support these women's choices to opt out of a marriage other than infidelity? Yes, there was.
God led me to Matthew 19:3-12. The Pharisees were looking for a reason to trap Jesus in His words. Their previous scheme had not worked with the woman caught in adultery. However, if they could just get Jesus to say something contradictory to the Law of Moses, then they could brand Him as a heretic. So they asked Jesus this question, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?" (Matthew 19:3b)
Jesus' answer was, and still is, God's original intention for marriage: "Have you not read . . . the two shall become one flesh? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate" (Matthew 19:5b-6).
The Pharisees did not like His answer. For Jesus had taken them right back to Genesis before there ever was a Moses or a Law of Moses so that they could hear what GOD SAYS about marriage. Yet the stiff-necked Pharisees persisted with another question: "Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?" (Matthew 19:7)
Jesus responds, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so" (Matthew 19:8).
The self-righteous Pharisees were using the Law of Moses as an excuse to bail out on marriages for any flippant reason. And because of this, the Lord had some very strong words for them. "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery" (Matthew 19:9).
I can just hear the stone throwers shouting, "See, I told you . . . it's right there in the word . . . 'sexual immorality!'"
Wait a minute. Like Paul Harvey, let's hear "the rest of the story" before jumping to any conclusions. After verse 9 comes verse 10. Even Jesus' disciples, which would include us, were amazed at the words of Jesus. "His disciples said to Him, 'If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry'" (Matthew 19:10). Yeah, I can see their point. If sexual immorality (fornication) is the only reason for divorce, then perhaps we are better off not getting married.
But look at Jesus' response to his own disciples in verse 11. It stands to reason that if the disciples' statement was true, then Jesus would have said something to affirm it as such. He does not!
"But He said to them, 'All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given'" (Matthew 19:11).
What saying? The saying in verse 9 of course. NOT ALL can accept the saying that fornication is the ONLY reason for divorce.
Now notice that Jesus goes on to explain what He meant with the following verse:
"For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother's womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it" (Matthew 19:12).
What did Jesus mean by this? He tells us that three different men all became eunuchs for different reasons. One was born a eunuch, another was made a eunuch by men, and still another made himself that way for the kingdom of heaven. They all became eunuchs for different reasons, but who is to say which eunuch is "God approved"? God accepted them all. That's the point!
Likewise, there are many reasons someone might seek a divorce: physical and verbal abuse from a spouse . . . being married to an unbeliever who makes life a literal hell . . . marital unfaithfulness . . . the stress of being married to an alcoholic for 23 years . . . or living with a pornographer who refuses to repent. Which one of these reasons for divorce is "God approved"? That's the point Jesus was making. Just as the eunuchs were acceptable to God regardless of how they became a eunuch, so also is a woman acceptable to God who seeks to be free from an abusive husband, even if infidelity is not involved. You and I cannot see in the heart of that abused person . . . but God can. For God has called them to peace.
And the church has done more harm counselling emotionally and physically battered women to stay in a relationship citing Matthew 5:32 "except for sexual immorality" as the only just cause for divorce. Women have actually committed suicide and murder under the stress of remaining in an abusive situation because their legalistic church counseled them to do so.
You may have heard of the case in the U.S. where a lady killed her husband (a pastor) who had been abusing her for years. God had called her to peace . . . but she never knew it, and one day she snapped. The evidence of abuse was so overwhelming that the courts found this woman not guilty of murder by reason of insanity.
I certainly do not want to imply that people should take their marriage so lightly as to divorce for every whim and fancy. I would not condone that, and neither does the Word of God. Every marriage will have its share of problems which can be worked out with God's help by two committed individuals. Yet there are some women, especially those suffering physical and mental abuse, who have reached the tipping point of no return; and the only thing they can do to preserve their sanity is to get out of that marriage. And ultimately, it is to the Lord they answer to, not you or me. He has called them to peace.
After God opened my eyes to the truth of scripture, I contacted those ladies on the dating site who I had thrown "stones" at and apologized profusely. I was truly grieved that I had been so self-righteous and blind, wounding those precious sisters for whom Christ died.
Now back to the story that I began with. The "stone throwers" had already dropped their rocks and left the scene with a guilty conscience, leaving Jesus alone with the adulterous woman.
"He said to her, 'Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?'"
"She said, 'No one, Lord.'"
"And Jesus said to her, 'Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more'" (John 8:10b-11).
HALLELUJAH�MERCY TRIUMPHS OVER JUDGMENT!!!
Blessings in Christ Jesus,
Paul Janz
(All Scripture quotations are taken from the Holy Bible, New King James Version.)
"The Stone Thrower" Copyright � 2010 by Paul Janz.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 8 Jun, 2012 12:15 AM
Paul, I tell you this. You ask what I am doing here? I am telling you you have no authority over me or anyone. You couldnt enforce it over me here or in person! Understand? I would present the same truth to your face with no backing down! I don't hide behind a woman taking on what you wouldn't! I commend teach ib for her attempt on Hebrews 10 vs 26. You wouldnt even attempt it mr pick and choose your battles. You can't even dialogue because you aren't teachable when clear cut scripture is provided. You pick and choose what you will answer and haven't addressed what I asked of you before all on this forum! That's cowardly! Also paul teach ib hasn't proved me wrong either on my verses provided. she hasn't as of yet addressed them all. You are quick to jump the gun to rejoice in your short sighted prideful glee of imagined victory. You might win sometime at a game of checkers against me should we play sometime. That's it! Nothing else! I don't count you as an enemy because you name messiah as lord. I do and will however rebuke you openly for error in doctrine and when you are laying stumbling blocks! Got it?
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 8 Jun, 2012 08:38 AM
teach ib . . ."I would say that Paul is saying Amen to my posts because they are refuting Singer and your posts. God's Word speaks for itself which is why I rely upon it." . . ..A BIG AMEN to that!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
teach ib, your posts are excellent, rightly dividing the word of truth. And I must say, you are far more gracious to BobBobbins and Singer4u then they deserve. Here are a few of your posts that bear repeating again and again:
"Bob,
You and Singer accuse Paul and me about not addressing your questions. So instead of one massive response, I chose to break my responses into smaller chunks to make it clear.
You still do not understand the definition of schizophrenic...otherwise, you would not use it in the sense you are trying to infer.
As for the police officer incident...the police officer has the option of showing mercy on me...while I may have broken the law, he has the choice of giving me a ticket or not....I've experienced both. So in the case of God, He can chose how He may punish me for any sin I may commit...or as was demonstrated throughout the Bible, God may chose NOT to punish me for my sin. Since God is a just God, He must punish sin with death...Romans6:23a "For the wages of sin is death..."
However, Romans 5:8 " But God His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.". Christ paid the death penalty. So Romans 6:23b "...but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." was given to me when Romans 10:13 "For whosever shall call upon the name of the Lord SHALL be saved.". There's no maybes or strings attached there...no further conditions to be saved."
"So then Bob, since I am saved by the grace of God, I am not under (judged) by the law...
John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Romans5 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
What is justification? God's act of declaring or making a sinner righteous through Christ's atoning sacrifice...just as if I never sinned.
Romans 6 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Galatians 5 1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."
"These are the commandments I follow...as Christ instructed.
Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these."
"You wrote: "Let me be clear - keeping the law of Yahweh makes one a lawful citizen of His kingdom. It does not make one a "legalist""
You're right, keeping the law does not make one a legalists; however, holding rigidly to laws and not showing mercy like Christ did/does, makes one a legalist.
I'm sure I could find some sin you are guilty of and proclaim the punishment listed in the Bible...as did the Pharisees in the original post of this thread. I choose not to look at or for your sins because I am not without sin so I will not cast stones."
"Now, you are taking cover behind a woman's skirt. Paul, I am challenging you to come out from behind that skirt, read the posts that I have written to you that directly refute your article, put down your stones, quit name calling, be a man and defend your article. Can you do that?"
For the record, No one is hiding behind my skirt...once again you are talking about me without knowledge of me. I haven't had a skirt on since I started posting in this thread...and last I checked, even if I did have a skirt on, no one is hiding behind me.
I would say that Paul is saying Amen to my posts because they are refuting Singer and your posts. God's Word speaks for itself which is why I rely upon it.
You both claim that you rely on God's Word but you add your own, or in many cases, other people's words and interpretations. There is nothing inherently wrong with providing your interpretation of Scripture...but when you insinuate you are more qualified to make that interpretation, you are crossing the line.
Again, you have no idea what I have studied, where I have studied, or what my qualifications are...and I'm pretty sure you don't know that about Paul either.
I deal with people in many lines of work that have a "better than thou" attitude...and they more often than not prove their own lack of knowledge or how to apply that knowledge in the situation they are in"
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 8 Jun, 2012 08:40 AM
BobBobbins and Singer4u. There's really nothing more to be said to you that has not already been said. So I will continue to repeat it until you hopefully get the message.
So BobBobbins and Singer4u, you have been weighed in the balances and found wanting. Your accusations are unfounded and your interpretations of my article incorrect. Stone throwers all have something in common: They are usually self-righteous, ready to condemn, and can quote the Word of God. They boast in the keeping of the letter of the law while ignoring the weightier matters of justice, mercy and faith. And besides all this, they have one other notable characteristic . . . they are hypocrites. Matthew 23:23-28.
I have been FALSELY accused by you both, implying that I said Jesus sinned. I never said Jesus sinned. YOU DID! You made the ASSUMPTION that Jesus would have sinned if He had broken the Sabbath--I DID NOT. All I said was Jesus broke the Sabbath. Then you drew out your proverbial stones and said the following:
BobBobbins says, "Jesus never broke the sabbath. If he had done so, he would not have been able to fulfill the law. Your salvation could not have occurred. I am not sure where you get such ridiculous ideas. That is completely absurd and totally false."
My response: Absurd and totally false? . . .Really? "Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said God was His Father" (John 5:18). According to the apostle John, who wrote that scripture under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . .Jesus broke the Sabbath.
Singer4u says, "Paul and Goldenfaith both said in their writings on this forum that Yahushua broke Sabbath. That is impossible! You two should know better than that and to say it is total heresy!!! YOU ARE SAYING HE SINNED!"
My response: heresy? . . .really? "Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said God was His Father" (John 5:18). According to the apostle John, who wrote that scripture under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . .Jesus broke the Sabbath.
It is very clear in the Word of God that Jesus BROKE the Sabbath. It also says in the Word of God that Jesus NEVER sinned. I have no problem with both scriptures. It is you, Singer4u and BobBobbins, who have exalted yourselves above the Word of God to add your own interpretation to John 5:18. You both claim that Jesus could not have broken the Sabbath. Since when does your word override God's Word? You claim to be defenders of the Word, yet you are woefully ignorant of it.
"And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, 'Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!'"
But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him:
"how he entered the house of God and ate the showbread which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?
"Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?
"Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple.
"But if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' you would have not condemned the guiltless.
"For the Son of Man is LORD even of the Sabbath." (Matthew 12:2-8)
Oh yes, Jesus broke the Sabbath, but He never sinned. He was WORKING on the Sabbath healing people, but He never sinned, for He was doing exactly what the Father told Him to do. JESUS IS LORD even of the Sabbath.
And now in regards to Singer4u and BobBobbins adamant stand on the reasons for divorce. Both of you have ignored Jesus' Word spoken in Matthew 19:11:
"But He said to them, 'All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given'"
You both ignore Jesus' Word spoken in Matthew 19:11 and quote only Matthew 19:9. Hypocrites! Is Jesus' Word spoken in verse 11 any less anointed than verse 9? You blind guides, you strain out a gnat and swallow a camel. Jesus said, ALL CANNOT ACCEPT the saying that fornication is the only reason for divorce, 'but only those to whom it has been given.'"
So Singer4u and BobBobbins accept that fornication is the only reason for divorce. Good for you. That's between you and God. Jesus said "ALL CANNOT ACCEPT THIS SAYING." And whether you like it or not, Singer4u and BobBobbins, the LORD JESUS makes it clear that He accepts other believers who have views on divorce contrary to yours.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 8 Jun, 2012 08:40 AM
Teach ib, Hebrews 10 vs 10. which you provided is true. Yahushua did provide atonement once forever. Yet you are making an assumption and not reading all the warning passages in context. This truth doesn't take away the warning of not commiting apostacy in Hebrews 10 vs 26-31.
Example: If a believer wants to fall away and become a homosexual (males or females) then this scripture no longer applies to them! The father Yahweh nor Yahushua would let the blood of Yahushua apply for them anymore! Same for an adulterer who was a believer! (1 Corrinthians vs 7-11)There are many warning passages that warn believers not to fall away!
It starts in Hebrews 6 vs. 4-6
King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Teach ib what does this prove?
(Vs 4) Its impossible to renew them again to repentace because their eyes were opened they believed because they tasted of the heavenly gift(Yahushua) and were (vs 5) made participants with the Holy Spirit andd they tasted knew the word of Yahweh (were accountable) and the powers of the coming age ( powerful movings and giftings of the Holy Spirit etc ) (vs 6) it says if they fall away its IMPOSSIBLE to renew them to repentence( because their sins are no longer able to be hid in Yahushua and to have died on the cross with messiah for them based on their qualifying unrepentant lifestyle) and they put him to open shame before men and all the hosts of heaven!
Like Esau they sold their birthright for a single meal.
Read all of the following in Verse 12 and take note on v the points of without holiness no man will see Yahweh, if we as adopted sons be without the Father's correction we are bast-ards not sons, where we can fail of the grace of Yahweh by allowing a root of bitterness, by being a profane person or fornicator who lose their birthright, how will we escape if we refuse to obey and turn away from him who is in heaven !!!
Hebrews 12
King James Version (KJV)
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bas-tards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Address these teach ib if you will please.
Also in your commentary with Bob you said you do this and thats fine if you do.However his point was there is no way you can keep the two if you don't know the 10 by heart. We have to know them. I know them by heart. By keeping the 10 we keep the two and by keeping the two we keep the 10.
The 10 commandments are forever! They are the Torah too!
Matthew 22:37-43 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself
Teach ib, you can't learn everything through the teachings of your denomination for they all have errors. You have to receive truth from the Holy Spirit for total accuracy!!!!
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 8 Jun, 2012 08:44 AM
teach ib . . ."I would say that Paul is saying Amen to my posts because they are refuting Singer and your posts. God's Word speaks for itself which is why I rely upon it." . . ..A BIG AMEN to that!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
teach ib, your posts are excellent, rightly dividing the word of truth. And I must say, you are far more gracious to BobBobbins and Singer4u then they deserve. Here are a few of your posts that bear repeating again and again and again:
"Bob,
You and Singer accuse Paul and me about not addressing your questions. So instead of one massive response, I chose to break my responses into smaller chunks to make it clear.
You still do not understand the definition of schizophrenic...otherwise, you would not use it in the sense you are trying to infer.
As for the police officer incident...the police officer has the option of showing mercy on me...while I may have broken the law, he has the choice of giving me a ticket or not....I've experienced both. So in the case of God, He can chose how He may punish me for any sin I may commit...or as was demonstrated throughout the Bible, God may chose NOT to punish me for my sin. Since God is a just God, He must punish sin with death...Romans6:23a "For the wages of sin is death..."
However, Romans 5:8 " But God His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.". Christ paid the death penalty. So Romans 6:23b "...but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." was given to me when Romans 10:13 "For whosever shall call upon the name of the Lord SHALL be saved.". There's no maybes or strings attached there...no further conditions to be saved."
"So then Bob, since I am saved by the grace of God, I am not under (judged) by the law...
John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Romans5 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
What is justification? God's act of declaring or making a sinner righteous through Christ's atoning sacrifice...just as if I never sinned.
Romans 6 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Galatians 5 1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."
"These are the commandments I follow...as Christ instructed.
Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these."
"You wrote: "Let me be clear - keeping the law of Yahweh makes one a lawful citizen of His kingdom. It does not make one a "legalist""
You're right, keeping the law does not make one a legalists; however, holding rigidly to laws and not showing mercy like Christ did/does, makes one a legalist.
I'm sure I could find some sin you are guilty of and proclaim the punishment listed in the Bible...as did the Pharisees in the original post of this thread. I choose not to look at or for your sins because I am not without sin so I will not cast stones."
"Now, you are taking cover behind a woman's skirt. Paul, I am challenging you to come out from behind that skirt, read the posts that I have written to you that directly refute your article, put down your stones, quit name calling, be a man and defend your article. Can you do that?"
For the record, No one is hiding behind my skirt...once again you are talking about me without knowledge of me. I haven't had a skirt on since I started posting in this thread...and last I checked, even if I did have a skirt on, no one is hiding behind me.
I would say that Paul is saying Amen to my posts because they are refuting Singer and your posts. God's Word speaks for itself which is why I rely upon it.
You both claim that you rely on God's Word but you add your own, or in many cases, other people's words and interpretations. There is nothing inherently wrong with providing your interpretation of Scripture...but when you insinuate you are more qualified to make that interpretation, you are crossing the line.
Again, you have no idea what I have studied, where I have studied, or what my qualifications are...and I'm pretty sure you don't know that about Paul either.
I deal with people in many lines of work that have a "better than thou" attitude...and they more often than not prove their own lack of knowledge or how to apply that knowledge in the situation they are in"
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 8 Jun, 2012 08:50 AM
BobBobbins and Singer4u. There's really nothing more to be said to you that has not already been said. So I will continue to repeat it until you hopefully get the message.
So BobBobbins and Singer4u, you have been weighed in the balances and found wanting. Your accusations are unfounded and your interpretations of my article incorrect. Stone throwers all have something in common: They are usually self-righteous, ready to condemn, and can quote the Word of God. They boast in the keeping of the letter of the law while ignoring the weightier matters of justice, mercy and faith. And besides all this, they have one other notable characteristic . . . they are hypocrites. Matthew 23:23-28.
I have been FALSELY accused by you both, implying that I said Jesus sinned. I never said Jesus sinned. YOU DID! You made the ASSUMPTION that Jesus would have sinned if He had broken the Sabbath--I DID NOT. All I said was Jesus broke the Sabbath. Then you drew out your proverbial stones and said the following:
BobBobbins says, "Jesus never broke the sabbath. If he had done so, he would not have been able to fulfill the law. Your salvation could not have occurred. I am not sure where you get such ridiculous ideas. That is completely absurd and totally false."
My response: Absurd and totally false? . . .Really? "Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said God was His Father" (John 5:18). According to the apostle John, who wrote that scripture under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . .Jesus broke the Sabbath.
Singer4u says, "Paul and Goldenfaith both said in their writings on this forum that Yahushua broke Sabbath. That is impossible! You two should know better than that and to say it is total heresy!!! YOU ARE SAYING HE SINNED!"
My response: heresy? . . .really? "Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said God was His Father" (John 5:18). According to the apostle John, who wrote that scripture under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . .Jesus broke the Sabbath.
It is very clear in the Word of God that Jesus BROKE the Sabbath. It also says in the Word of God that Jesus NEVER sinned. I have no problem with both scriptures. It is you, Singer4u and BobBobbins, who have exalted yourselves above the Word of God to add your own interpretation to John 5:18. You both claim that Jesus could not have broken the Sabbath. Since when does your word override God's Word? You claim to be defenders of the Word, yet you are woefully ignorant of it.
"And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, 'Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!'"
But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him:
"how he entered the house of God and ate the showbread which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?
"Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?
"Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple.
"But if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' you would have not condemned the guiltless.
"For the Son of Man is LORD even of the Sabbath." (Matthew 12:2-8)
Oh yes, Jesus broke the Sabbath, but He never sinned. He was WORKING on the Sabbath healing people, but He never sinned, for He was doing exactly what the Father told Him to do. JESUS IS LORD even of the Sabbath.
And now in regards to Singer4u and BobBobbins adamant stand on the reasons for divorce. Both of you have ignored Jesus' Word spoken in Matthew 19:11:
"But He said to them, 'All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given'"
You both ignore Jesus' Word spoken in Matthew 19:11 and quote only Matthew 19:9. Hypocrites! Is Jesus' Word spoken in verse 11 any less anointed than verse 9? You blind guides, you strain out a gnat and swallow a camel. Jesus said, ALL CANNOT ACCEPT the saying that fornication is the only reason for divorce, 'but only those to whom it has been given.'"
So Singer4u and BobBobbins accept that fornication is the only reason for divorce. Good for you. That's between you and God. Jesus said "ALL CANNOT ACCEPT THIS SAYING." And whether you like it or not, Singer4u and BobBobbins, the LORD JESUS makes it clear that He accepts other believers who have views on divorce contrary to yours.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 8 Jun, 2012 09:00 AM
Paul I will no longer address you personally cause you don't debate over scriptures provided here for the total truth and good for everyone on this forum and so that most importantly Yahushua is glorified!!! I will debate any scripture brought up by anyone unlike you! You want people to only see from your narrow minded self delusional teachings proved by the point that that's all you post. Yet I want truth from all the Word of Yahweh for the good of all here.
NOTICE READERS OF THIS FORUM. This man never answers with scripture on a point by point refutation of scripture. He hides behind his lack of widom and knowledge by studying the whole counsel of Yahweh. Beware his continually posted inconclusive teachings lacking all verses pertaining to a matter at hand which weakens and waters it down!!! Example: In his stone thrower's thesis why is 1 Corrinthians 7 vs 10 and 11 and vs 38 and 39 and Romans 7 vs 2 and 3 not included in it as well as many more that need to be there or applied to it for total truth to guard our souls. The apostle Paul said that 1 Corrinthians 7 vs 10 and 11 was the Lord's direct command! This guy paul janz is following his own short sided view of the scriptures and it can be a potential stumbling block to those unlearned and untrained and new in the faith of messiah!
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 8 Jun, 2012 09:02 AM
A true GOLD NUGGET for the readers:
"Teach ib, you can't learn everything through the teachings of your denomination for they all have errors. You have to receive truth from the Holy Spirit for total accuracy!!!! "
Here is one of the worst BAPTIST lies:
All we have to do is "Say A Sinner's Prayer" and we are "SAVED, Guaranteed Heaven and A Rapture in the air".
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 8 Jun, 2012 09:15 AM
Paul,
You have made a mockery of this thread with your continued childish cutting and pasting. You have also devalued this website and the free tools that are given here for all to enjoy such as these forums. There are others who have been following this thread for the purpose of learning from the posts. I know because I have been in contact with several. Yet, you continue to litter the conversation with your antics.
If you can't show any respect for yourself, at least show it to the website and those on it who are trying to learn. You have been warned.
Have you been CONDEMMNED by others as having an "UNBIBLICAL DIVORCE" ?
Posted : 8 Jun, 2012 09:38 AM
People of this forum I ask you to examine the evidence:
Read all my correspondence with this guy paul janz. I have asked him continually why he doesn't have all the verses pertaining to divorce and remmariage and more importantly why he didn't include the messiah's command of 1 corrinthians 7 vs 10 and 11 in his stone thrower's thesis? He has yet to answer!!! Yet he continually throws a rehash of it on this thread over and over and it is inconclusive of all the bible has to say to the people he advises in it that mercy triumphs over judgement. Yet the scriptures declare that is only true when applied lawfully by the scriptures. Cause their is also justice which means applying judgement in our Messiah's commands. What if this stone throwers thesis is wrong and you follow it??? Is paul janz and his teachings your god that you would obey?
DO AS YAHUSHUA THE MESSIAH COMMANDED THROUGH THE APOSTLE PAUL--- TEST ALL THINGS AND SEE WHETHER THEY BE OF YAHWEH! Just because it sounds good with a little scripture in it doesn't mean its correct. We need the whole counsel of Yahweh to determine whether a matter is true or not. The stone throwers thesis sounds good but its full of half truths because its what he fails to say from the scriptures that makes it in error. He doesn't tell what yahweh requires of the women he tells he understands how they feel even if they were willful adulterers who ruined their Yahweh given marriage. Like having compassion for them will change the truth of the word of Yahweh's requirements as to whether they can remarry or not. He says grace when it can't be applied when someone will willfully sin! Come on people! The devil told Eve a half truth= Surely you won't die when you eat of the fruit. Sure sounds similar=surely you won't die when you do all the sinning you want to do because mercy triumphs over judgement in the stone throwers thesis. Yet Yahweh isn't mocked you will reap what you sow in this life and the next!
