Author	Thread: wich one glorifies god the most?
Admin	wich one glorifies god the most? Posted : 30 Aug, 2009 06:01 AM ARMINIAN SPEAKING;gee,Im so glad that I made that decision to follow christ cuz if I hadnt done that I wouldnt be saved,Im really a clever person because I was able to choose god,and my neghbor is not as smart as me,thankyou god for making me smarter than my neighbor so in all of MY great wisdom I was able to see the wisdom in following you! calvinist speaking:thankYOU lord for opening my eyes oh lord,for without YOUR grace and mercy,i would still be dead in my tresspasses and sin,YOU regenerated my mind,took away my heart of stone,And YOU gave me a heart of flesh,thankYOU oh lord for saving a wretch like me,in JESUS NAME AMEN Post Reply
View Profile History	wich one glorifies god the most? Posted : 30 Aug, 2009 07:54 AM Oh gee, Steven. That made me chuckle, but I rarely get into debates with Arminians anymore... I hate arguing among the brethren, although I know that's kind of a cheap way of being a coward. Paul Washer would probably get on my case for that statement. xD I do think that people seem to think in Earthly terms and don't consider that God's ways are not our ways. Calvinism is simply the view on how we are saved. I laugh when people attack me and say that I worship John Calvin, when that's not even the case. I dislike using even that term, because the doctrines of election predated Calvin himself. Here's a statement from Paul Washer: "Salvation is not simply a decision made by those who want to jump out of the line going to Hell and jump into the line going to Heaven." So true... Most Arminians don't even understand Calvinism, and misrepresent it. Post Reply
View Profile History	wich one glorifies god the most? Posted : 30 Aug, 2009 09:02 PM I always find it ironic that people object to Calvinism on the basis of freewill. In the non-Calvinist perception, free-will means autonomy from God. So is the point of Armenian Christianity autonomy from God's will? No, but they take autonomy to be a given - we're free, so we must chose to follow God, despite the fact that it implies God is distant from us, and our decisions rest only on our own priorities. Faith is just about utility, not about anything meaningful, or a meaningful change in our ability to address God as our Creator. This is the breeding-ground of cultural Christianity. Post Reply
View Profile History	wich one glorifies god the most? Posted : 31 Aug, 2009 05:52 AM I agree with you LOTC,debating with arminians is tough!I was arminian,before i knew what it even meant,you know,they always use that one verse"I stand at the door and Knock'I heard that in bible school as a kid,I always pictured Jesus standing at my door and knocking,and I was like,Ahh maybe ILL let you in later,after ive had a little fun first,Well,the lord allowed me to have my "FUN"then after I completly destroyed my life,I opened that door,LOL,OK,What really happened is,god busted down my door,and carried me off,and im so glad he did,I wouldnt have come on my own,not until he opened my eyes and my heart!So I have a deep personal love for the doctrine of grace,or calvinism,or predestination,or tulip,or augustininism,or....ect.............how about.....gods will..........And i know....no one can snatch me out of his hands.....what i dont understand is,how can people read all those verses,and still have an arminian veiw?Once i started reading them,it wasnt even close,I mean ,when you finally realize that you were predestined for salvation before the creation of the earth!!I mean cmon,How incredible is that,And nobody can change that,its in stone man,talk about joy,woohoo:applause: In Christ Steven Post Reply
View Profile History	wich one glorifies god the most? Posted : 31 Aug, 2009 06:56 AM Yeah, the verse that talks standing at the door and knocking is referring to the church, not unbelievers. And regarding free will, Arminians do seem to get it wrong every time. It's not that Total Depravity rejects free will, it's that our free will is limited. Think of it this way. We each live within our own sin bubble, and we are blinded to any thing outside of that, but we can fully execute our free will within that sin bubble. Post Reply
donpjt View Profile History	wich one glorifies god the most? Posted : 1 Sep, 2009 09:36 PM Charles Spurgeon preached a sermon called Free Will - A Slave . In it he gave an example of an Arminian prayer. If an Arminian were to be consistent with what he believes this is what he would pray: "Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not�that is the difference between me and them." However, Spurgeon explains that even though an Arminian can preach arminian doctrines, he can never pray like that because that would be a sinful prayer. Post Reply
View Profile History	wich one glorifies god the most? Posted : 2 Sep, 2009 05:19 AM hehehe,yeah,when they pray,they suddenly turn into calvinists,imagine that,I think the problem with a lot of arminians is not recognizing the depths of their own evil!!!when god really opens your eyes to your own sin and what evil you are capable of,you begin to realize just what lengths the lord had to go to,to forgive us!Im not saying arminians are not saved,for that is not for me to say,but i do wonder sometimes,because if their eyes have not been opened,and they think they had a hand in their own salvation........well....ill leave that alone......there are a lot of arminians that seem very devoted to christ.....I think C.S. LEWIS was arminian in his beleifs,Ive enjoyed all his books,he kind of avoids the subject. In Christ Steven Post Reply
KidzWorker View Profile History	wich one glorifies god the most? Posted : 2 Sep, 2009 10:46 AM Spurgeon was Calvinist, Wesley was Armenian. However, Wesley was Armenian because of the unholy attitude of the Calvinists of the day, using God's sovereignty as an excuse not to evangelise. I prefer the Armenian view point (that all have the choice to be saved, therefore no-one is instantly condemned to hell) and i know there are scriptures that back this viewpoint up. I know that there are more scriptures backing up Calvinism, and that it is probably the truest viewpoint. HOWEVER, I KNOW ARGUING ABOUT THE TWO POINTS TAKES US AWAY FROM MORE IMPORTANT POINTS LIKE EVANGELISM. In the end it doesnt seem to affect how amazing God is. He still saved me, a wretched sinner. Post Reply
View Profile History	wich one glorifies god the most? Posted : 2 Sep, 2009 05:34 PM True Calvinists don't believe in not evangelizing. We don't know who the elect are, and just because someone is elect, it doesn't mean they are saved yet. Faith cometh by hearing, and we are commanded to spread the word. Scriptures that Arminians use to refute Calvinism don't refute it, because they haven't understood the doctrine. Post Reply
View Profile History	wich one glorifies god the most? Posted : 2 Sep, 2009 07:09 PM also,kidzworker,you said you prefer arminianism,even though the evidence points the other way,well i hope your not on my jury,if im ever falsely accused of murder or something,a reasonable adult does not make decisions by their own preferences,thats why their are so many false religions,people create a god of their own making,If you beleive the bible to be innerrant,inspired word of god,then this must be your one and only criterean!I would agree with you,only i would go further and suggest that the evidence for election is overwhelming!Anyone who truly reads the predestination verses,if he is being intellectually honest,will find,as i did,that its not even disputable!Also,Do you realize that everyone "having a choice"gives man glory,But god doing the choosing,gives god the glory.Remember,god does not apologize for this doctrine,he is infinite god,we are finite mud puppys(meanig we had a beginning)This is his universe,he is a law unto himself.God drowned the whole human race once,on purpose,he is the potter,we are the clay,think about it,I challenge you to read all the verses on predestination ,and pray about it,dont go by feelings! In Christ Steven Post Reply
DontHitThatMark View Profile History	wich one glorifies god the most? Posted : 3 Sep, 2009 09:13 AM Lol...it's nice to see that some Christians think they're better then others, eh?:goofball: I just have some questions. If Jesus died for the whole worlds sin....and if God is willing that no one should perish(1 Tim. 2:3-6)....why doesn't God just predestine everyone? Why is He playing duck duck goose with people's salvation? If we have nothing to do with our own salvation...then how do you explain verses like John 3:16? It doesn't say "...that whosoever God predestines...", it says "whosoever believes". Galatians 5:4 says it's possible to fall from grace. Once saved always saved? I don't believe God forces people to be Christians. God is a god of love. Forcing someone to love you isn't love. God wants us to choose Him because we see the He loves us because He sent His son to die to save us. If you take away our choice, you take away our love. And because I believe in free choice doesn't mean I doubt Gods power...I KNOW He could make us do anything He wants. He could make all evil cease to exist. He could make everyone choose to be saved. But I don't believe He does. Why? Because He wants us to love Him from choice. I do believe God has a predestined group of people....but I believe that anyone can come into it, or fall out of it at anytime....just like someone can change citizenship. Anyway...for the ones that say we are evil when we are born, and that we all have sinned Adams sin because we're his descendants, so God took away our "free will"....what about this? (Romans 5:12) 12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law). 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. I don't think God is trying to play tricks on us...and if He did something so drastic as to take away our free will....don't you think He would have been very clear in His Word? Don't you think He would have said something about it right after the fall of man, or anywhere for that matter? Like, "You no longer have free will?" Anywhere? I sure can't find it. Gen. 3:21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life. Sounds like He's saying that man now has the knowledge of good and evil, and that now man has the choice between the two. Anyway...I don't believe anything we do saves us...just because we love God doesn't mean He has to forgive our sins. But I do believe that God won't forgive our sins unless we do love Him...and I think we have to continue to love Him after our sins are forgiven or it means nothing. After we're saved we have to learn to walk like Jesus walked or we lose it. "If you love me, keep my commandments"...not "if you love me, I will save you no matter what". I think "once saved always saved" is dangerous. It gives people a false sense of security. "Hey, I'm saved once and for all...doesn't really matter what I do now." :peace::peace: Post Reply

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