Thread: I kissed courtship goodbye: christian rock music and legalism don't mix
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I kissed courtship goodbye: christian rock music and legalism don't mix
Posted : 13 Mar, 2011 08:24 PM
I have a horror story to share with you all:
I am an avid fan of christian rock and heavy metal music. I enjoy the classic bands like Stryper, Petra, and Whitecross as well as the heavier and more extreme bands like Mortification, Living Sacrifice, and Impending Doom, etc. P.O.D. was my introduction to christian music 10 years ago when I was back slidden. At the time, I was into secular bands like Slayer, Deicide and Morbid Angel, all which were lyrically desecrating my Lord and savior and all out in-your-face glorifying Satan. Soon after I discovered P.O.D., I started checking out christian music and came across the above mentioned christian bands along with many others. Soon after, I got rid of a number of secular metal CDs I had that were lyrically satanic and evil as I was being convicted by the holy spirit for supporting such bands and then I started growing in my walk with Christ. So I know from first hand experience that God can use all genres of music to minister to people and draw people closer to him.
Several months ago, I met a girl on christian mingle, and we became friends and started hanging out. It didn't take me long to figure out that she's rather old fashioned. She is very anti-dating and extremely gun-ho about courtship, something I knew very little about at the time, but I decided to go with it out of respect for her. Months later, we were in a "courtship" together and my views and fascination with christian rock and heavy metal started becoming an issue with us. We got into several debates about it. The first few were friendly non-hostile debates just between the two of us. But then she decided to get her parents involved and that's when things got ugly and turned to disaster. This girl and her parents confronted me viciously attacked me because of my views on christian rock music. They are your typical fundamental baptists. They are very legalistic and they think that christian rock music is just as "evil" and "satanic" as any Marylin Manson song because of the electric guitars and the drum beats, whereas my moral emphasis is on the LYRICS. We got into a heated debate in which I showed them song lyrics, testimonies, band interviews, youtube videos, etc. And I even read them Psalm 150. And everything I showed them they just responded with rebuttal. Trying to get them to understand that God uses christian rock music to minister to fans of rock music is like trying to convince Westboro Baptist Church that Jesus also died for homosexuals. To make a long story short, this girl dumped me because I refused to conform to her family's legalistic views against christian rock music. I myself was about ready to break it off with her because the rock music debates and how she was going about them threw up some serious red flags and made me question wether or not her and her family would also later on have suspicions about the local christian blues band I play bass for and wether or not they would support what I do with that (which I know the Lord has called me to do to use my musical talents to bless people with the gospel message).
I've always disliked legalism, but now I just flat out HATE it with a passion. Also, my short lived nightmare relationship with this girl has left a really bad taste in my mouth when it comes to courtship. So I think I will stick with traditional dating from here on out.
I kissed courtship goodbye: christian rock music and legalism don't mix
Posted : 13 Mar, 2011 09:43 PM
Sorry to hear your relationship did not work out. In time, I'm sure you will meet the right one. Continue to use your talents, to make beautiful Christian music, for people to hear. I enjoy music alot and I think you are doing a wonderful thing. God bless you...Kay
I kissed courtship goodbye: christian rock music and legalism don't mix
Posted : 13 Mar, 2011 10:31 PM
I strongly believe in courting and baptism,, but agree there is nothing wrong with a rock beat or type of music for that matter, but the content of the song and the purpose of it.
But, one thing, courting is by far the best way for two christians to go about getting to know one another, and I feel your hatred towards more conservative views is going to make you less open minded than you are trying to seem to be.
I kissed courtship goodbye: christian rock music and legalism don't mix
Posted : 13 Mar, 2011 10:49 PM
First of all, please understand this is meant as no disrespect, but I do come from an Independent Fundamental Baptist background and think you are misjudging Baptists based upon this one experience. Growing up, because of moving, I went to several IBF churches, some slightly bordering on legalistic, some not so much. Yes the ones that were more border legalistic, did not care for Christian rock music, and only allowed Hymns to be sung in church. Praise and Worship was even looked down on. However that was only a minority of the churches, in fact, I think only 1. Most, did not have a problem with Christian Rock. Quite frequently, in the Youth Groups, you would even here Praise and Worship going on.
Just like each and every person is different, so are each and every church. Some are going to be bad apples, some are going to bear delicious fruit. Don't let one girl decide that everyone from a similar background is like her. I apologize if that is not the case, but it almost sounds like it is.
I kissed courtship goodbye: christian rock music and legalism don't mix
Posted : 14 Mar, 2011 06:18 AM
I completely agree with what Kat said about not judging all fundamental Baptist girls by what that one girl was like. I, too, was raised in an independent, fundamental, Baptist church. Fortunately, it was not a legalistic church, and as praise and worship music became more popular, we incorporated it into our services. It is not at all unusual for it to sound like a rock concert is going on in the youth room!
Even though I don't think that Christian rock music is "wrong", it's not something that I enjoy. I don't mind if others listen to it, but I would have a hard time dating a guy who expects me to listen to it and enjoy it (or at least put up with it without complaining) just because he likes it. Some of the praise and worship music is great; heavy metal Christian music, though, is just not my thing.
I kissed courtship goodbye: christian rock music and legalism don't mix
Posted : 15 Mar, 2011 11:43 AM
When dating someone with different interest both have to give in a little. Did she like some moderate music in between or was heavy rock not her thing. Were you both being hard headed, other wise refusing to give in.
When you love somebody you will give somethings up for that person. if she really did not like haevy music would you have given it up for her.
remember that a husband is called to give his life for his bride as christ did for the church. That is true love.
Would you have given that hard core music up for more mellow music???????
if no you were not ready to love her yet.
I have been married and divoraced.
My x told me, no job no marriage. I was layed off, not my fault.
Love gives up all things not just what you want too.
I kissed courtship goodbye: christian rock music and legalism don't mix
Posted : 15 Mar, 2011 03:25 PM
This girl sounds like she believes exactly like I do. I try not to judge anyone that is a fan of that music and I try to not make it a big deal when I first meet someone because more than likely they are going to have the same reaction you did with this girl. I do feel like you should explain your position in a loving manner and try to get the other person to understand where you are coming from. So that's why I usually just avoid the topic all together until a dating relationship develops.
Like I said though I do agree with this girl and her family. One thing I think churches do to try and bring in the crowds is take worldly music and put Christian lyrics to them. I don't think the heavy metal is pleasing to the Lord. It doesn't create a worshipful spirit. It appeals to the flesh, as a result in a lot of contemporary services you'll see clapping and the raising of hands, you'll also see a lot of swaying back and forth.
Paul tells us I Corinthians 14:33 God is not the author of confusion. In Ephesians 5:19 Paul encourages us to sing spiritual songs and hymns and make melody in your heart unto the Lord. I believe this is telling us to approach music in our worship services from a non carnal perspective.
Colossians 3:16 is the verse where I base this conviction off of though.....Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
I believe the purpose of music in the church is to prepare your heart for the message. I don't believe going to church should be like going to a rock concert. We should show reverence in our worship and we should be separate from the rest of the world as Paul teaches in II Corinthians chapter 6. I believe this applies to the music in our churches.
I don't believe I'm legalistic and my intention is not to offend anyone that reads this but this is kind of a hot button topic with me and a concern of mine. I feel like too many churches are entertainment based and not there to truly worship the Lord. I'll go as far as to say that if you took the music out of these churches would people still come to hear the word of God preached? I'm afraid the answer would be no.
If you have an open mind about this topic I'd encourage you to pick up two books. One is titled 'Why I left the contemporary Christian Music Movement" by Dan Lucarini and the other is titled "This little church went to the market" by Gary Gilley.
I kissed courtship goodbye: christian rock music and legalism don't mix
Posted : 15 Mar, 2011 07:55 PM
I see I've got some variations in responses and I don't even know where to start, so try to bare with me.
To KatOnTheViola:
I myself grew up going to baptist churches and I have noticed many variations of what they're all about. Most of the churches I went to growing up were legalistic (hymns only, no drum beat, jeans are forbidden, etc.). I grew up hearing that christian rock music is "evil" and that hymns are the only way to worship God, etc. I even once heard a pastor totally trash talk Star Wars as being "satanic". My dad himself was very legalistic for a good period of time. But on the other hand, I've also attended some baptist churches that are not so bent on legalism. I once attended a baptist church that is traditional and does only hymns, but they do not condemn christian rock music. In fact, many of the church leaders there are very much in favor of modern christian music. I currently serve as a worship leader at a southern baptist church. Our pastor is very laid back (but yet is firm on biblical principals), and he lets me do what I want in regards to what songs to pick. I do a good mix of old hymns and modern praise and worship songs. The small congregattion there loves me to death. I think that church would die if I left. So as far as what I say about fundamental baptists, I speak purely from personal experiences and observations.
To dgrimater:
I am very open minded musically. I don't just listen to strictly rock and metal. I also enjoy praise and worship (which makes sense since I am the worship leader at my church). My top favorite CCM artists are Chris Tomlin and Third Day. Jon Tesh also has a couple of really good praise and worship albums that I enjoy. I play bass in a local christian blues band, so I also listen to lots of blues. My stand on music in relationships always has been that my wife does not have to like the heavy bands like Stryper or Skillet. if the sounds of screaming and heavy guitars are too much for her, I have no problem with keeping it contemporary around her out of respect for her and only listen to the heavy metal when I'm alone (such as when I'm driving to work) or plugging in headphones. I tried emphasizing that with this girl several times, but for some reason that just was not sinking in for her. And as for your point on making sacrifices for love, I told her that I'd be willing to prayerfully give up all forms of secular music for her (which I am selective about based on the lyrics) if she was willing to let me keep the christian bands. So I was willing to make sacrifices for her as you mentioned. And furthermore I told her that I would not play the heavy bands around her. I felt that was well more than reasonable, but that was not good enough for her. I was very willing to sacrifice for her and she was just as unwilling to do the same for me. This girl and her parents would not be satisfied unless I conform to their legalistic views against christian rock music. I'm sorry, but that is NOT "love". That is MANIPULATION. I refuse to marry someone who will manipulate me and try to force legalism down my throat. If that makes me "selfish", then so be it. But hey! What do I know??? I'm just a "dumb metalhead".
to UNC2011:
I know you think I am a "carnal" christian" because my christian music has a drum beat and electric guitars, but I have to be honest when I say that it really scares me how christians will argue that christian contemporary is ok, and christian country is ok, but christian rock 'n roll is not ok. Music in of itself is just a 7 note arrangement. Stryper uses the exact same 7 note arrangement in their christian heavy metal songs that Fanny Crosby used in her old hymns. How more "satanic" is the E minor scale played in 8th notes as opposed to being played in 16th notes? How more "unchrist-like" is it to play a G chord on a guitar through a clean acoustic channel than it is to play that exact same G chord through a distorted channel? If you read the lyrics to songs by christian bands such as Stryper, Petra or Whitecross, it is very obvious that they have a straight foward message in their lyrics that points people to the gospel message. How can we say that God doesn't like Stryper just because they use electric guitars and drums instead of an organ and piano? Where do we draw the line? Not only is that not biblical, but it makes no sense. If christian rock music is wrong because it "looks like the world", then why do you use a computer? Lots of worldly people use computers. Why do you drive a car? Lots of worldly people drive cars. Christian rock bands reach out to a crowd of people with the gospel who otherwise would not normally step foot into a church. So they are essentially bringing church to them in a way. If you really do feel that that is morally wrong, then I would sincerely like to challenge you to one day hang out in a parking lot of a secular rock concert and start witnessing to people in a way that you see as "morally right". I think Motley Crue is going on tour this summer with Poison. If they're playing a show near you, put on your three piece suite, grab your bible and same tracts and make your way to the parking lot of the concert and start sharing Christ with the people there. Or do you consider that rock music crowd as a "lost cause"? If so, then don't worry. Stryper is also touring this summer and they have enough faith in believing that God will start opening up the hearts of young rock music fans across the country so that they can share Christ with them.
I kissed courtship goodbye: christian rock music and legalism don't mix
Posted : 20 Mar, 2011 03:17 PM
Man there are so many responses to this...sorry I didn't read everything everone has said. First of all I'm not down with the heavy metal music soley because it just doesnt jive with me. I prefer something a lil lighter. But I think it's amazing that the Lord has provided bands that have members who love the Lord and love their type of music and use it for His glory. That is definitely awesome. Secondly no matter what the issue is there will always be nay sayers. We live in a sinful world and people twist scripture and things all the time. Is what music you listen to (beat wise) a salvation issue, I don't think so. You know throughout history previous generations always have complaints and issues with the choice of music in the younger generations. And as far as music being carnal and creating chaos...maybe it is not the music itself that creates the chaos. That is really, to me a cop out for personal responsability.
Also, I can totally understand a bitter taste left over from the courtship experience you had. But, I just want to encourage that as you continue trying to find the woman the Lord has for you to just make sure and spend the bulk of your time in public settings...maybe some group dates, and no time absolutely alone in an apartment or house. I'm sure many who read this may find it extreme. But after my own dating experiences and failures to remain totally pure it's just an encouragement.
I kissed courtship goodbye: christian rock music and legalism don't mix
Posted : 20 Mar, 2011 07:12 PM
I totally agree with your point on not being alone with your significant other outside of marriage due to the high risks of temptation. The problem I had with my experience with courtship was with how this girl and her parents attacked me on my views on rock music. Her parents also seemed to be very controlling of everything, which I didn't like too well. I'm NOT saying that the parents can't get involved with their children's relationships. In fact, I very much believe the parents should take the time to get to know their children's boyfriend/girlfriend. As for me personally, if I were in a relationship, I have no objections whatsoever with her parents getting to know me and asking me questions about myself. In fact, they can ask me anything for all I care, wether it's about my walk with God, what I do for a living, my stand on certain moral issues, or past relationships, etc. I have nothing to hide. And I also very much believe in the idea of asking the for the father's blessing before proposing marriage. I just didn't like how they are judgemental and critical of everything. Our differences and our views butted heads with each other. They hate my views on rock music and I hate their legalism. It was just a tramatizing experience for me.
I kissed courtship goodbye: christian rock music and legalism don't mix
Posted : 21 Mar, 2011 08:03 PM
well, that's sad especially if you love the girl... being judge because of the kind of Christian music you play. Our sincere love for God is beyond music. It's all about how you accept God in your life and accept that you've been saved by Jesus and doing things with good intentions. Respect of the belief of others as well is very important.
God is not finished with you yet. The key to a long lasting relationship is understanding and acceptance. You'll find that person one day! Someone who'll accept and understand you exactly just the way you are. God Bless!
