Teach my sister, your input on this one matters most to me, simply because you've initiated this passage in the colomn of "Bible questions & advises" though in less than a day your post wasn't showing anymore, due to the number of many other posts that were asked just after you.
Do allow me to say that, "you really are a blessing Teach, God has layed the depth of He's wisdom on you. I admire your inside darling sis"
Once more, you were chosen out of respect & the joy of interacting with you. (I enjoy your company)
Its about a third (3rd) time now asking almost the same question, though there's always a slightly difference in my questions about submission.
Please don't lose heart Teach, there's just something small I always miss about understanding submission. Maybe its because the scenario's are different too.
There's my question to you darling sis:
(I personally believe that a good leader oftens inquiries from those he's leading. This deosn't make him anyless of a good leader, doesn't even compromise him of he's position. You can't lead in ignorance of your partner's feeling, you communicate often in finding out how does she feels since she has to follow the taken decisions in leadership)
May qoate this out of context:
God Himself in trinity as the very great leader, invites those He's leading (us the church) to come reason with Him (though in this regard He invites us to reason about forgiveness of sins, while my subject is submission) hense saying I may qoat He's word out of context. He's saying "Come, let us reason together...."
Your post that trigured this question in me, was about the book of Ester.
King Ahasuerus made a feast only with the interntion of showing off the riches of he's glorious kingdom, to a point of he's assets through he's wife, queen Vashti who never followed the given instruction from her husband. (I wonder if she expected demotion from her royal pssition)
Maybe this wasn't even part of the agreement when the two communicated in their palace of privacy about making a feast. It wasn't spoken about that she too was part of those to be shown of. (that is just me wondering)
The issue of this subject with me now is that:
Jesus the main teacher of submission,
The one who submitted to God to the point of death on the cross (which was agreed in trinity hense he followed even in hardship)
He understood the secret of coperating with given instructions, and the price awaiting Him on He's throne. There was a time just before He's hour was at hand, when praying.... He's tears turned to blood. This gives an idea of the volume of pressure & the stress He was under. He still carried on with the mission while wishing the cup could have been moved, unless its God's will that He drinks of that cup.
Queen Vashti couldn't coperate knowing too well of the price awaiting her, and therefore was disqualified. (still say maybe this wasn't communicated to her)
Nonetheless,
Where does one draw a line without harming the relationship or causing failure in marrege (don't mean that fair is only caused by us ladies) since on our previous convention about submission (though was more based on different altars) I was told not to submit in ignorance, in some things you mustn't. Which sounds fair but where does a lady draw a line wiithout harm.
Let's refer to Jesus as a wife while was here on earth,
Just as queen Vashti was a wife to the king.
I wonder if my very long question makes any sense Teach,
I'm missing something about submission... Maybe I eventually won't find suitable words to express what i'm really misunderstanding about it.
Just wondering Teach if God somehow as the King, would want to do something spontaneous without communicating it to us as a church (He's wife) and therefore there's no room of reasoning with Him as He invited in the book of Isaiah,
Let say in the last day, just before He comes for the church (its only an example dear) he wants to brag about He's chosen assets, He wants to show all the kingdom of darkness how beautiful He's wife really is,
And we the wife refuse to show up as instructed by Him to come walk around before Him as He shows off to the devil just how He's glorious wife really is.
Thank you Teach for time taken in reading this long question,
You don't have to write back right away if having others responsibilities.... I'll wait patiently my darling.
Thanks for your kind words...it is not me but God who is in me and has blessed me with life experience and and good teaching over the years. Thanks for the questions...always a tough subject to address. I will respond with a couple posts...
Submission is probably one of the most misunderstood and misused precept, especially in a marriage.
- Submission is the giving or yielding to authority...we all do it every day. �
- Men and women�submit to the authorities of government, local, city, state, etc. If they don't they face the consequences of fines or jail or even death.
-�They submit to bosses at work...follow their rules, their guidelines, etc. or face being fired!
-�Students submit to the authority of their teachers/principals.
- Children submit to the authority of their parents.
In Genesis 16:9, the angel told Hagar to submit to Sarah. �In 2 Samuel 22:45 & Psalm 18:44, David said strangers would submit to him and Psalm 66:3 David speaks of God's enemies submitting to God.
In 1 Corinthians 16:16, Paul talks about submitting to the ministry.
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Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief; for that is unprofitable for you.
James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake; whether it be to the king, as supreme....
I Peter 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. �Yea all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
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We don't even think twice about these principles of submission. �I skipped the references to submission in marriage intentionally. �I will address them later.
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1 Corinthians 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
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We have rules and authorities to keep things from turning to chaos.
As a person that has authority over others, we should not forget to treat those under us the same way as we want to be treated...it is not uncommon for the roles to be reversed later.
There are even verses to guide how we should treat those under us...
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Ephesians 6:4 and, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonish of the Lord.
Colossians 3:21 Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.
Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works.
You addressed attributes of a good leader...yes a good leader does seek advice and input from the team. �Sometimes because they are more specialized (know the technical details or have special skills)...leaders lose the details as they progress up the chain. �A good leader surrounds himself/herself with good people.
Sometimes a leader asks of team members because that is an effective way to gain buy in/acceptance to an idea or task...instead of giving the solution or specifics, the leader may ask how or what to do...the team members recommend the solution...it's theirs so they are more apt to do it. �Sometimes the leader uses opportunities to train or mentor team members...to help them to the next level in their career. �That is leadership...
There are also different types of leadership...and leaders are found at all levels, not just the boss. �One can be the leader of a team but not really lead...they have the title but not the know how. �There are informal leaders, members of the team who provide the direction, set the example (especially if the leader is in title only).
In the case of Vashti, she disrespected the king by not following his direction. �He made an example of her so that others would submit to his authority.
In the case of Esther, she had to make a decision to risk disobedience to the king in order to save her people. �Sometimes we have to weigh the consequences of obedience and disobedience, submission or resistance. �
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Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
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Man's rules sometimes are at odds/go against God's law/direction.
So now let's look at submision in marriage. I skipped the verses on submission that involve marriage because if we understand the precept of submission in general, it won't be so hard in a marriage.
No one really likes to be told what to do. �It's in our nature from birth to resist...toddlers try their parents...doing what they're told not to do. �Teenagers try the bounds of their parents' authority. �Even as Christians we don't always follow the rules of our church or the speed laws or sometimes we disobey God...sin. So it's not surprising that submission in a marriage is often a challenge.
So let's look at some of those 'marriage verses'
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Ephesians 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church; and he is the Saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands , love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. �He that loveth his wife loveth himself
35 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord
19 Husbands, love your wives and be not bitter against them.
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As you can see in each of the passages where submission of the wife is addressed, there is direction to the husband, too. �Too often, men think these verses give them unlimited authority over their wives...that they can tell the women to do whatever and the women have to blindly obey them. �The tendency is to forget there are all the other verses that apply on how to treat people, deferring one to another, being respectful, kind, tender hearted, etc. Sometimes the thought is, now you're my wife so you are my slave and you have to do whatever I say...Well that is not the example Christ set.
As a wife, we should want to please our husband and are instructed to give them respect...this should be easy because he should be showing love to the wife. �It should be natural to desire to please the one you love and whom loves you.
It's when there is imbalance in the relationship that causes submission and acts of love to be difficult to achieve. �If the husband is an authoritarian, never seeks the advice or involves the wife in decisions, the wife will not understand and begin to have difficulty in submitting to his authority...think about the boss at work that just sits and tells others what to do, but never does anything or has no clue about what to do...the employees become resentful...so is the husband /wife relationship. �A good leader seeks advice, listens, and is inclusive in decisions, so should a husband. �The ultimate decision is the husband's; however, a decision based on discussion will be better received.
If the husband is not living up to Christian standards, the wife will often have difficulty submitting, following the decisions/authority of the husband. �If he stops going to church, is cruel to her or the children, or does other things that are in opposition to God's direction, the wife will have to balance God's rules against the husband's directions. �There are times that the wife could have to 'disobey' the husband in order to obey God. �Submission is not blindly following...it's about following Christ's example. If the husband leads as Christ has instructed, the wife will readily submit to his leadership/authority (assuming she is following Christ's instruction).
Unfortunately, we are all still humans with a natural tendency to sin...no matter how long or how great a Christian, we can fall to the temptation of sin. We (men and women) get angry, bitter, get our feelings hurt, listen to gossip, etc and then our relationship suffers (marriage, work, family, church, etc). We need to work at the right attitude, right actions, right response every day...it becomes easier over time; however, we all have those days that it's easier to react than to control our emotions, we speak before we think, etc. Trials will come...even in the best of marriages.
We can practice submission every day in our family, at work, at the store, etc. the better we get at responding to authority in our every day life, the easier it will be in a marriage.
Thank you soooooooooooooooooooooo much darling for the given verses. Will surely be continueing my reseach through them. Much appreciation again for the first replies about submission at large, before dwelling on it in marriage. The teacher in you dear just reflected as reading these replies before reading the last one that covered & clearified it all in summery of submission in general.
Teach you've been patient & available whenever I needed you, at times I can't express enough how much I just love & appreciate you. You're in the list of those I look forth reading & interacting with whenever posted something here. May God reward you for time taken & your efford invested in me.
So submission in general is a two way traffic, (that's what i've picked learning from your replies)
It begins with the one submitted to, then goes down to the one submitting.
I'm then glad of king David's experiences with Soul, he had to go through... Submitting in hardship so he learns how it feels being 'oppressed' (if I should use the word) so he leads with a compassionate attitude, instead of abusing those he's leading.
In this regard Teach, i'm not really worried about queen Vashti not following the given order by the king, (which was just wrong either way one looks at it) i'm more keen of the cause of what could have caused her not to coprate. In my little mind (could really be wrong, its only an imagenation) it begins with the king being at falt himself. He's heart was merry with wine when he commanded he's servants to go get queen Vashti.
Somewhere in the book of Provebs (can't recall right now the specific passage) God doesn't approve of a king/leader being drunk. Queen Vashti could have been having solid reasons why didn't she roperate with her husband... Just as you said dear that at times we should weigh our options (which may sometimes reflect disobedience especially if matters are not communicated)
Its unfortunate that she was just shuttered out without hearing to her side of the story. I'd really loved to understand why she did that. Instead both parties were in diffense of themselves from one onother, rather than communicating & seeking the depth of each ones behavior since they both are at falt. The king giving orders while drunk, he could have made worst flops,
While the queen could have been thinking soberly hense we're not told of her being drunk too.... Now can you really reason with a drunk person & find a common ground? I doubt, instead you both gonna disagree all the way. Cause the drunk one is only thinking & living for the pleasures of that moment.... While the sober one thinks ahead, not only for now.
The king is allowing everyone, even those who serve at he's palace to drink as they please. While when reading forth he had enemies plotting on killing him (as Mordecai brought it to Ester's attention when chosen as the queen)
Maybe queen Vashti was cautious of such things, if only she was listened to.
This time around I deviated all together since I picked up recent errors about the king too when re-reading after you've posted your replies.
