Maybe the drinking is the root of your struggling faith?
Take the time to read this in depth study about wine and drink etc...It will do you good I promise. :angel:
Should Christians oppose social drinking?
Todd Clippard
Topic(s): Christian Life, Moral Issues
The Bible does indeed make the aforementioned statements. But all should also know the Bible only uses one word to describe both alcoholic and non-alcoholic wines. The common term for wine as used in the New Testament is oinos<. This is also true in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament.
Oinos indicating the presence of alcoholic beverages:
In the Old Testament, Genesis 9:21 says, "Then he (Noah) drank of the wine (oinos) and was drunk". Genesis 9:24 says Noah "awoke from his wine," indicating he had "sobered up." Genesis 19:32-35 says Lot's daughters "made their father drink wine" (oinos). He became drunk and was unaware of the sin they committed with him.
In the New Testament, Revelation 17:2 speaks of those who "were made drunk with the wine (oinos) "
Oinos which cannot refer to intoxicating beverages:
Isaiah 16:10 says "no treaders will tread out wine (oinos) in the presses", and Joel 2:24 says "the vats shall overflow with new wine (oinos) and oil." We might also note Isaiah 65:8, which speaks of the "wine found in the cluster," that is to say, still on the vine.
In the New Testament, Jesus said men do not "put new wine (oinos) into old wineskins " (Matt 9:17).
These are but a few of the many passages that show both usages of the Greek word oinos. Since oinos is used in both senses, the context of Scripture must determine whether alcoholic or non-alcoholic beverages are under consideration.
The wedding feast at Cana
As mentioned in the original inquiry, John 2:1-11 is cited in defense of those who would promote social drinking. It is argued that Jesus miraculously created alcoholic wine at the wedding feast of Cana. Proponents say the phrases "the good wine" and "well drunk" necessarily refer to alcoholic beverages. Such is incorrect historically, linguistically, and contextually.
In reference to "the good wine," Samuele Bacchiocchi quotes Pliny, (a first-century Roman scholar), saying "wines are most beneficial when all their potency is removed by the strainer" (Wine in the Bible, p. 42). He also quotes first-century Greek historian Plutarch, saying "wine is 'much more pleasant to drink' when it 'neither inflames brain or infests the mind and passions' because its strength has been removed through frequent filtering" (ibid).
Bacchiocchi finally refers to the Talmud (the Jewish law and rabbinic traditions) as saying "that drinking to the accompaniment of musical instruments on festive occasions such as weddings was forbidden" (ibid, emp mine - JTC).
Concerning the phrase "well drunk," it is assumed the wedding guest were already intoxicated before Jesus performed the miracle of creating wine from water. The Bible says six waterpots capable of "containing 20 or 30 gallons apiece" were placed before Jesus. This means that at least 120 - 180 gallons of water were miraculously changed into wine. Shall we assume Jesus created 120-180 gallons of intoxicating beverages for a group wedding guests who were already quite intoxicated? The Greek verb translated "have well drunk" (v 10) in the KJV/NKJV is translated "have drunk freely" in the RSV. Also, the context speaks of the discerning palate of the guests as still being in full function. The palate is keenest at the beginning of a meal or prior to the quenching of thirst. After much indulgence at the dinner table or in drinking a beverage, the palate is not so discerning. Most of us can relate to this in reference to the meals we often eat at Thanksgiving or some other festive occasion. We understand that the best bites are the first, and that the latter lack the keen taste of the former, though they are identical.
Of considerable import is the fact that the intoxicating wines of the first century did not contain the potency of our modern beverages. The wines of the first century contained a very low percentage of alcoholic content, generally about 2 or 3% (our modern beer is 5%). Even these slight intoxicants were often mixed with 2-3 parts water to cut their potency by up to 75%. Our modern wines contain anywhere from 12 - 25% alcoholic content by volume. Thus, the two cannot be accurately compared so far as the intoxicating effect of each is concerned.
Paul's statement to Timothy in 1 Timothy 5:23
Consider now Paul's admonition to Timothy in 1 Timothy 5:23 which reads, "No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake, and your frequent infirmities" (NKJV). Proponents of social drinking manage to find much in this text which simply isn't there, primarily the use of alcoholic wine. We have already shown that the context must determine the type of wine (oinos) intended by the author. What advantage would alcoholic wine have in settling the stomach over non-alcoholic? It is likely that Paul here refers to non-alcoholic wine/juice, as it probably would have been boiled to eliminate impurities and destroy the fermenting agents. Second, the word translated "use" is from the Greek chraomai which means "take" or "make use of." It is not the word for "drink" which might imply much use, but rather a word that we might use in reference to taking medicine, something used sparingly and only as needed. Third, note Paul's introductory phrase, "No longer drink only water." This implies Timothy completely abstained from drinking any type of beverage made from the grape. This would be consistent with the practice of God's servants dating back to the days of the priests (Lev 10:9-10) and the Nazarites (Num 6). Finally, the text does not encourage the use of alcohol in social settings. There is a specific purpose for the use of this wine, "for your stomach's sake and for your frequent infirmities." Paul here enjoins the use of wine for medicinal use. The phrase makes this perfectly clear. Any attempt to read into this text the use of alcoholic beverages in social settings only shows the bias of the disputant.
Another passage mentioned which is commonly misused to promote social drinking among Christians is found in the qualifications of deacons. In 1 Timothy 3:8, the Bible says a deacon must be "not given to much wine." The argument hinges on the word "much," as if Paul was saying, 'a little wine is acceptable, but not a lot.' However, the tenor and thrust of the Scriptures holds the recreational use of alcohol as inconsistent with holy living. Consider the following scriptural descriptions of the influence of alcoholic beverages:
"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise" Proverbs 20:1;
"Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder" Proverbs 23:29-32;
"But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean" Isaiah 28:7-8.
The biblical exhortation to soberness.
In some instances, this word simply means "to be in one's right mind," translated from the Greek sophroneo. (cf 2 Cor 5:13; 1 Tim 3:2; Titus 1:8; Titus 2:4, 6; 1 Peter 4:7). However, in other places, the word "sober" carries the modern usage of being free from the influence of alcohol, being translated from the Greek nephos (1 Thes 5:6-8). In fact, in the qualifications for the wives of elders and deacons is found the command to be sober (nephaleos - free from the influence of wine). Shall we then contend that it is acceptable for the elders and deacons to use alcohol in moderation, but their wives must be teetotalers? In Titus 2:1-6, the aged men are commanded to be "sober" (nephaleos - v 2), while the aged women are commanded "not to be given to much wine" (v 3). This seems to be just the opposite of the commands concerning elders, deacons, and their wives. Also, in verses 4-6 there is no commandment given to the young women or the young men regarding sobriety (nephaleos). Does this mean there are no prohibitions placed upon them in this regard?
Finally, many Christians use the following argument in defense of social drinking, "The Bible doesn't condemn the social use of alcohol, only its excessive use. I may drink in moderation without violating the will of God." Question, how does this question fall on the ear, "John, why don't you come over to the house and study the Bible with me over a couple of beers?" Doesn't fall pleasantly upon the ear does it? Aside from what common sense tells us, the Bible does address the subject of social drinking.
In speaking of the ungodliness of the Gentiles, Peter wrote, "For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of Gentiles -- when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries" (1 Pet 4:3 - NKJV). Note the distinction between "drunkenness" and "drinking parties." "Drinking parties" (banquetings - KJV) comes from the Greek potos meaning "drinking or carousing." Earlier in the same letter, Peter pleaded, "Beloved, I beg you as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul" (1 Pet 2:11). Can there be any doubt that the use of alcohol wars against the soul? Remember Proverbs 20:1; "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."
The Works of the Flesh
In listing the works of the flesh in Galatians 5:19-21, the apostle Paul mentions both drunkenness and revelries. But just in case that wasn't clear enough, he added these words, "and the like" (v 21). This would be considered somewhat of a "catch-all" phrase for any evil thing not specified in the previous verses. In 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22, Paul wrote, "Test all things; hold fast what is good. Abstain from every form of evil" (NKJV). The word translated "good" is from the Greek kalos, meaning "commendable, admirable, excellent in its nature and characteristics, praiseworthy, morally good, noble, affecting the mind agreeably" (Strong's). None of these traits can be ascribed to the use of alcohol.
The use of alcohol in moderation in social or private settings has many defenders, but no defense. Remember Paul's admonition to Timothy, "Be not a partaker in other men's sins, keep thy self pure" (1 Tim 5:
*** Yes!!!...:applause:...This is a most Excellent article!...this Gent Todd Clippard has done his research well. There is a Jewish Custom or Rule for lack of a better word that the Jewish Elders use when Disputing about the �Right or Wrong���Allowed or Not� and �What is God�s final Word on it��It is called the
�Law of First Mention�
And the 1st mention is found in Gen 9 as stated by the author. This is also the Chapter of the �Covenant� that God makes with Noah and his sons.
Gen 9:20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
*** This is the 1st mention of a vineyard. I can only imagine how beautiful it was�
:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
*** Notice�This is the 1st mention of �wine� (oinos) and 1st mention of �drunken� (shaker) [intoxicated] and the 1st mention of �uncovered� (galah) [nakedness].
*** Its really as easy as 1, 2, 3 No pun intended.
:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
*** Uh Oh�he �saw� and �told��that�s not very good!
:23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
*** They honored their father Noah by not gazing upon his �nakedness� for in Gen 3:21 Papa God covers Adam and Eve�s �nakedness��
:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
*** We can only speculate what was done to Noah or how he knew. The verses preceding this one is about wine, drunkenness, nakedness and that is the Focus while using the �Law of First Mention�.
*** I truly hope this helps the folks understand that when questioning Scripture or in Doubt about something it is Always best to go the �Beginning� of the Scriptures or as the Hebrew~Israel~Jews say the �Law of First Mention� to find the truth of the matter�
*** God�s continued Blessings to yall and hava God HolySpirt Filled day!!!
Here is a great article on the subject. Notice in Luke 7:34 where Jesus is accused of being a drunkard because He drank alcoholic wine. He even confesses that He came eating and DRINKING(alcoholic wine). It is best to avoid alcohol but there is nothing in scripture that condemns it if it is drunk in moderation. May this truth be a blessing to you all!
Question: "Did Jesus drink wine/alcohol?"
Answer: There is only one group of people who are explicitly told in the Bible to never drink wine/alcohol, and that is the Nazirites (Numbers 6:1�4). Jesus was not a Nazirite; He was a �Nazarene,� a native of the town of Nazareth (Luke 18:37). Jesus never took the Nazirite vow.
Christ�s first miracle of turning water into wine at the wedding at Cana almost certainly involved a fermented beverage. According to Jewish wedding tradition, fermented wine was always served at weddings; if Jesus had provided only grape juice, the master of the feast would have complained. Instead, he said the wine was better than what was previously served; it was apparently a �fine� wine (John 2:10�11).
The Greek word for �drunk� in John 2:10 is methuo, which means �to be drunken� or intoxicated. It is the same word used in Acts 2:15 where Peter is defending the apostles against accusations of drunkenness. The testimony of the master of the feast is that the wine Christ produced was able to intoxicate.
Of course, just because Jesus turned water into wine doesn�t prove that He drank the wine at the wedding, but it would have been normal for Him to do so. What it does prove is that Jesus doesn�t condemn drinking wine any more than He condemns eating bread. Sinful people abuse what is not inherently sinful. Bread and wine are not sinful, but gluttony and drunkenness are (Proverbs 23:2; Ephesians 5:18).
In Luke 7:33�44, Jesus said, �For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, �He has a demon.� The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, �Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!�� (emphasis added). In verse 33 Jesus is making a contrast between John the Baptist�s �drinking no wine� and His own practice. Jesus goes on to say the religious leaders accused Him (falsely) of being a drunkard. Jesus was never a drunkard, any more than He was a glutton. He lived a completely sinless life (1 Peter 2:22); however Luke 7 strongly suggests that Jesus did indeed partake of alcoholic wine.
The Passover celebration would also have commonly included fermented wine. The Scriptures use the term �fruit of the vine� (Matthew 26:27�29; Mark 14:23�25; Luke 22:17�18). Of course, Christ participated in drinking from the Passover cup (Mark 14:23).
All Christians would agree drunkenness is sinful, and Christ Himself warns against it (Luke 12:45). However, a biblical view of wine is that it is given as something to delight in (Psalm 104:14�15). There are plenty of warnings against alcohol abuse, in texts like Proverbs 20:1, because sinful men are more likely to abuse wine than to use it in moderation. Those who try to use Jesus� probable use of wine to excuse their drunkenness should heed the warning in Luke 12:45. Christians who want to keep a biblical view of drinking wine should either drink in moderation, never to drunkenness, or abstain totally.
It would behoove you to study what is already posted before you post an opposing view.
There was a time when I would have copied something from that site as well. But I gathered over time as I dig further that there is more to this. Also, your source has a canned answer for everything. They obviously do not dig into scripture. I have found things on that site that I absolutely disagree with.
Romans 14, or any of Paul's writing, is an interesting read. I also used to believe that all drinking is wrong, and while I myself still do not drink, I no longer believe that alcohol is sinful. Drunkenness is sinful, creating stumbling blocks for weak people is sinful, but temperately drinking alcohol is not sinful. If you go down the road of condemning it, many many other things fall into the same or similar categories, and it's the pathway to righteousness by works. What Paul says is that a strong believer, the ones with great faith, they understand that eating meat offered to idols is no problem, only if it causes a brother or sister to stumble. I believe that principle applies to anything not directly labeled as a sin by God's word. A strong believer, one with great faith, understands that alcohol is not evil by itself.
Matthew 15
10And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: 11Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man
Romans 14
13Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. 14I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. 16Let not then your good be evil spoken of: 17For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 18For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. 19Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. 20For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. 21It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. 22Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
"in essentials, unity; in doubtful matters, liberty; in all things, charity."
I take the approach now to live my belief as an example, and not drink at all; to recommend that people not drink, and give good practical explanations as to why not; but I cannot say that drinking is bad or sinful or forbidden. It is simply not biblical, and trying to determine which word meaning goes where stops making sense after a while. It is absolutely sinful and irresponsible to get drunk. Drunkenness is condemned throughout the bible, and alcohol is absolutely not allowed for people in high authority positions. However, alcohol is just as responsible for drunkenness as food is for gluttony. The problem is inside a person's heart and mind.
Here is a distinction that Paul makes between bishops(head of the church) and deacons(stewards of the church). One has the most authority in the church, one has less authority. (Caps added for emphasis).
1Timothy 3
1This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3NOT GIVEN TO WINE, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, NOT GIVEN TO MUCH WINE, not greedy of filthy lucre; 9Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 10And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. 11Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Both have the same requirement given for greed, but not for wine. This makes a perfect distinction that identifies the type of "wine" in question, and allows the use of "alcoholic wine" for those who have less responsibility and authority, BUT not to drunkenness.
And I just want to point out that I said the bible "allows" for alcohol drinking, I did not say that it's "recommended". I do firmly believe that the closer we get to Christ, the less we'll want to drink alcohol. The main point is not to judge or condemn someone because they drink a couple beers a week. And again, I'm not speaking from a biased position, I have never drank alcohol in my life.
Of considerable import is the fact that the intoxicating wines of the first century did not contain the potency of our modern beverages. The wines of the first century contained a very low percentage of alcoholic content, generally about 2 or 3% (our modern beer is 5%). Even these slight intoxicants were often mixed with 2-3 parts water to cut their potency by up to 75%. Our modern wines contain anywhere from 12 - 25% alcoholic content by volume. Thus, the two cannot be accurately compared so far as the intoxicating effect of each is concerned.
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So one couldn't drink to excess (drunkenness) in those days, as today?
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Quote from newfreedom:
The Passover celebration would also have commonly included fermented wine. The Scriptures use the term �fruit of the vine� (Matthew 26:27�29; Mark 14:23�25; Luke 22:17�18). Of course, Christ participated in drinking from the Passover cup (Mark 14:23).
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That would seem to make sense; as Passover is celebrated in early spring. I don't know about that part of the world; but where I'm from grapes aren't on the vine, let alone ripe, in early spring. I would assume that they would have had only aged wine from the previous fall. Without refrigeration, it would seem that it would take a relatively high alcohol content to prevent spoiling. Either one microbe or another is eager to consume the sugar; until the solution becomes toxic to microbial growth; no?
I have dipped into a few responses and there appear to be some very encouraging and agreeable opinions on the matter.
It is a personal choice of mine to not drink. though I do take a sip at communion. And though I do not believe drinking alcohol to be a sin,I do believe that actually if a person is drinking merely to become drunk, this is sinful.
There are many scriptures that have been pointed out already, so I shan't bother, really I just wanted to add one perspective which I personally find helpful.
If we look at this from the perspective of walking with God at all times, it helps I think. How can we effectively walk with Jesus whilst being intoxicated? I want to be in constant fellowship with him, and I would not want to disrupt that, I couldn't pray to God if I were drunken, I would feel like a hypocrite for a start and I feel the Holy Spirit within me would very quickly admonish me.
For this reason, if you are a Christian and you are even actually ABLE to get drunk, I suggest you take a very hard look at your prayer life!
