Reformed Theology believes that a man must be born-again before he can believe the Gospel and repent, because he is "totally depraved". They believe that man must have the Holy Spirit residing in him [born-again] before he can accept the Lord and believe, as is evidenced throughout several posts in this forum. And of course this is only for the 'elect' as those who are not 'elect' are passed by, by the Lord Himself, as if they were nothing in God's Creation. Those who are not Reformed Theologists believe that God speaks to each human heart through several different means, and that man first hears the Word, makes a choice to believe or not, and for those who chose to believe, they then become born-again and filled with God's Holy Spirit. Reformed Theology is out of order in their belief. Scripture nowhere shows a man is first filled with God's Holy Spirit, followed by belief and repentance. To the contrary we see an action that must be taken by man before salvation occurs. Most often in Scripture, it is "repent" and/or "believe" which is a command that when obeyed, leads to salvation [born-again]. God does not mock man in that He never makes a command of man that man does not have the means to do. If God commands all men to repent [Acts 17:30], then man has the God-given ability to repent. Anyway, let's get back to the order of things.
In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) -John 7:37-39
First, Jesus says "come unto me". That's an invitation. You can accept it or refuse it. He then speaks of belief and the promise of the Holy Spirit that they that believe will receive. Believe first and then you will receive the Holy Spirit. Right there in Scripture.
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, -Ephesians 1:12-13
Notice the order above. Hear the word [Gospel of salvation], believe, Holy Spirit seals you.
And we are his witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. -Acts 5:32
In this verse, we are told that God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him. Now, according to RT [Reformed Theology], we cannot reply to God, we cannot choose God, we can't do anything God, because we are too depraved in our sinful state. And yet God says He'll give the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him. Repent and believe [commands]. Salvation. Holy Spirit. That's the order.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. -Acts 2:38
Peter shows the order. Repent and you'll receive the Holy Spirit.
And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. -Acts 19:1-2
See what Paul said there? "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?" Since they believed? Here are believers that don't have the Holy Spirit yet. They hadn't even heard of a Holy Spirit. But Paul calls them believers. And you can bet, believers they are. So how does one get saved without the Holy Spirit living in them? To the RT, I'd like to know how you explain that verse in light of your belief that we must first receive the Holy Spirit that is forced upon us by God before we can even begin to believe in God.
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? -Luke 11:13
This verse goes along with Acts 5:32. Ask for the Holy Spirit and you will receive the Holy Spirit. According to RT, you are so depraved you wouldn't even begin to think to ask God for anything, much less a Holy Spirit, which you wouldn't even know what or who that is, and yet RT says that you have the Holy Spirit in you before you can know God, believe in God, etc.
Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: -Hebrews 3:7-8
The Holy Spirit speaks to the hearts of all men. And here we see there is an admonition. And a choice. Do not harden your hearts.
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: -John 16:7-8
It is the Holy Spirit of God that convicts man of sin. It is man that has the ability to heed the Spirit of God or ignore Him [harden his heart]. And the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin. This includes every person alive. It's not an 'elect' thing. And it is not until you believe in Christ that the Spirit of the living God will dwell in you. That's the order of things.
Eph 1:13-14 " Having believed you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession...."
Yes, another verse over looked by the Reformed / Calvinists. (note the words: "Having believed")
If one digs deep into this verse they will find this is the equivalent of a engagement ring. Before one gets a engagement ring they first must be proposed to and accept the proposal. Yet the Calvinist is somehow engaged even before they are asked... Wow, now that's quite a trick!
It is actually 180 out of the truth, and what is amazing to me is that some Christians believe they have the basics, and the basic essentials are what they completely deny.
I think you presented the Arminian side very well.
I would like to start by posting the verses you gave, and then presenting not only the verses that show that a person is regenerated FIRST, and THEN they are able to believe, but ALSO present the verses that say that fallen natural man does NOT have the ability to believe.
You touched on this at the beginning of your post, and rightly so, because a person has to HAVE the ability first, before they can believe.
Here are the verses you gave:
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, -Ephesians 1:12-13
James replies:
Reformed theology puts being sealed by the Spirit, AFTER a person is regenerated by the Holy Spirit and also after a person believes in Jesus and repents. So, this verse does not qualify because sealing is a separate event that comes after regeneration. Here is a link to what is called "the order of salvation". Scroll down the page and you will see a chart that has the order of salvation.
And also since you posted a verse from Ephesians, I will also, and look how much CLEARER this one is:
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive [quickened us] with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions � it is by grace you have been saved.
Ephesians 2:4-5
The Holy Spirit regenerated us, WHEN? "when we were DEAD in transgressions."
Again, dead men do not cooperate with grace. Unless regeneration takes place first, there is no possibility of faith.
71 posted:
And we are his witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. -Acts 5:32
James replies:
This is when the apostles were testifying before the council of Pharisees and so this is certainly not the apostles teaching the order of salvation. They are just telling the pharisees, that what they are doing is of God.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. -Acts 2:38
James replies:
This is not Peter teaching Christians the order of Salvation, this is Peter preaching the gospel to the lost.
And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. -Acts 19:1-2
James replies:
This is also not an apostle teaching the order of salvation.
This was a group of apostles that were not even baptized in the name of Jesus. And if you read further you find out that what Paul is speaking about when he says, "the gift of the Holy Spirit" is the ability to speak in tongues and phophesy. (Acts 19:6)
And staying Acts, what about this verse:
�Lydia was listening, whose heart the Lord opened to respond to the things spoken by Paul� (Acts 16:14).
That contradicts any idea of Lydia's will doesn't it.
The LORD opened her heart to RESPOND......
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? -Luke 11:13
That is a good one 71. From Jesus speaking here, it looks like if you are already a disciple of Jesus, because that is who He was speaking to, and you ask for the Holy Spirit, then God will give you the Holy Spirit. My problem with that interpretation is that it makes scripture contradict itself.
For instance:
�No one can come to me, unless the Father who sent me draws him� (John 6:44), �Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me� (John 6:45), and �No one can come to me, unless it has been granted him from the Father� (John 6:65).
From the analogy which he drew between the wind�s natural operation and the Spirit�s regenerating work (John 3:8), Jesus taught, in addition to the fact (�The wind blows�) and the efficacy (�and you hear the sound of it�) of the latter, both the sovereignty (�The wind blows wherever it pleases�) and the inscrutable mysteriousness (�you cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes�) of the Spirit�s regenerating work. And while Jesus declares that the birth �from above� is absolutely necessary for faith (John 3:7), he never preaches the �birth from above� in the imperative mood as if his auditor could in his own power produce it.
I mean just staying with the Words of Jesus here 71, I see Jesus literally TEACHING the order of salvation here:
John 6:63,65 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life... Therefore have I told you that no man can come to me, unless it be given to him by my Father."
To me, that is Jesus telling us the WE CAN'T accept Him, but when the Holy Spirit Makes us alive, THAT is when we CAN come to believe in Him.
Does that make sense to you?
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: -John 16:7-8
This verse is Jesus telling us that the Holy Spirit was going to come in a way that He had not come before, in a greater power of some kind. And this did happen with Pentecost. I think that is what Jesus is talking about here.
Regeneration is expressly denied to be of the will of the flesh, or of the will of man (John 1:13), and is ascribed to God himself. Not all men have faith in Christ; and those who do have it, have it not of themselves; it is the gift of God, worked out through the Redemption which is in Christ through the mighty operation of his Spirit, which is the fruit and effect of His invincible grace. This is because the natural man is wholly captive under the power and dominion of sin, and a slave unto it, and has neither a power nor will to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.
"And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live...Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD." - Ezekiel 37:14
Fallen man has always been dead in sins with a will enslaved to sin, since The Fall. That is why I am showing from Scripture that it has ALWAYS been this way.
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive [quickened us] with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions � it is by grace you have been saved.
Ephesians 2:4-5
See, it is the same as it was in the days of Ezekiel.
�It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.� (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, �This is why I told you that no one can come to me [i.e. believe in me] unless it is granted him by the Father.�
John 6:63-65
You have been born anew, not of perishable seed but but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God..."�
1 Peter 1:23-25
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.
1 John 5:1
Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate. Whoever has faith is a saved man.
Charles Spurgeon from the sermon �Faith and Regeneration�
If salvation is the implantation of a new, infinite life in the soul, it must be a work of God. Self-caused effects can never rise above the character or qualities of their cause. "Flesh gives birth to flesh but the Spirit gives birth to Spirit," Jesus told Nicodemus. This saving grace cannot be caused by the creature, it can only come from God.
John Hannah from To God be the Glory (pg. 34-5)
The inward offer is a kind of spiritual enlightenment, whereby the promises are presented to the hearts of men, as it were, by an inward word.
William Ames
So, yes 71, I see the verses you gave, and I understand where you are coming from, but I HOPE you also see that your interpretation makes Scripture contradict itself. Not only that but the verses that TEACH the order of salvation are CLEAR.
The Holy Spirit makes a fallen dead person, come alive spiritually and THEN that person naturally desires to repent and trust in Jesus.
No James, That response is made by you and another that have no idea what faith is.
You have a bible full of people that exercised faith and where not born again.
It is an example of those that have encumbered their will by the words of their mouth, and according to what they say they know have their will is now enslaved to unbelief.
