Thread: The 4 most hated/ignored verses in the Bible?
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The 4 most hated/ignored verses in the Bible?
Posted : 13 Apr, 2011 11:33 AM
I think the following four verses are for modern American Christians the most hated and ignored verses of Scripture in the entire Bible.
I would like to know your interpretation of these four verses.
But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath-prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory (Rom 9:20-23).
"But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?"
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God created mankind male and female, tall and short, rich and poor, Gentile and Jew and in all colors and dispositions. It is foolish for us of limited intelligence, knowledge and wisdom to complain to a God of infinite intelligence, who is all knowing and wise. We need to trust God knows what He is doing. Further more since God created us, He owns us and has the right to do what He wants with us. Good for us God is Love!
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What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath-prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory (Rom 9:20-23).
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Notice both these sentences start with "What if" and end in a question mark. These are rhetorical questions, yet Calvinism has decided to make doctrine from questions?
Nevertheless lets take a look at them: For literally hundreds of years the Jews who were at one time objects of Blessing had become objects of wrath through continual sin. They were prepared for wrath, but God waited until after Jesus came and was rejected by the Jews, then in 70AD. Jerusalem was destroyed and the Apostles left taking the Gospel to the world. (Of course Paul.and some others had a jump start on this).
So the disbeliveving Jews,objects of Gods wrath have benefitted us Gentiles. And we are being prepared in advance for glory!
James wrote - "I think the following four verses are for modern American Christians the most hated and ignored verses of Scripture in the entire Bible."
Quite an accusation there, James. I don't know any Christians that "hate" any verses in Scripture. An oxymoron, don't ya think? Must be another one of those phony arguments that Calvinists pull out of the darkness in order to shine up their doctrine against those who don't agree.
I pretty much agree with Two in his interpretation of that passage. Israel rejected her Messiah and continued to pursuit the law for 'righteousness'... But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness [vs 31]. She therefore became vessels of wrath because of her sin; not because you think God has made anyone into vessels of wrath to push your "limited atonement" junk.
But now, O LORD, thou [art] our father; we [are] the clay, and thou our potter; and we all [are] the work of thy hand. Be not wroth very sore, O LORD, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we [are] all thy people. -Isaiah 64:8,9
And the Gentiles became vessels of mercy [vs 30]. But God is patient and has "endured with much longsuffering" the sin of His people [Israel] and will one day restore her to Himself... "And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to [them which were] not my people, Thou [art] my people; and they shall say, [Thou art] my God." -Hosea 2:23
I think God saw your, ahem, explanation, and closed that off so that no one could say that this is just about Jews and Gentiles.
It says in verse 10 that Rebecca had conceived children "by one man, Our forefather, Isaac."
Now, we have two children conceived by ONE man, and God says that He hated Esau and loved Jacob.
The entire chapter of Romans 9 is talking about Gods sovereign choice in salvation.
When I read your interpretation, I ask myself, who would be offended by your interpretation? And the answer is no one.
The problem is, PAUL KNEW that some WOULD BE OFFENDED, and they would be offended by the idea that GOD is the one who CHOOSES whom He will save.
That is why this is the ONLY place in the entire New Testament where Paul PRECLUDES an objection.
he KNEW some people would object!
So, He says: "what shall we say then, is there injustice on God's part? BY no means!"
In verse 8 it says that "the children of the flesh" are NOT the children of God, but instead the children of the PROMISE.
And right after that Paul gives the example of TWO children IN their mothers womb, and BEFORE THEY ARE BORN, God chooses one and NOT THE OTHER.
And notice, it says, "though they were not yet born, and had done nothing either good or bad" "in order that God's purpose in ELECTION might continue, NOT because of works".
Another reason this cannot be interpreted as just Jews and gentiles is how many times this passage talks about individuals.
In verse 24 it says that God has called people FROM the Jews, and FROM the Gentiles. We have God loving Jacob and NOT Esau. We have God saying "It depends NOT on human will or exertion, but on God who has mercy"
I read this section as a new Christian, and it was immediately clear to me that GOD CHOOSES WHOM HE WILL SAVE.
I remember finishing the 9th chapter of Romans and shrugging my shoulders and saying, "Well, He is God, and He has a right to do with His creation as He pleases."
All will suffer judgement no one gets out,, judgement starts in the house of Yisra'el and then goes out to the nations
i popped on to see what was going here, when i read your subject line i was curious but was let down. A verse christians are really scared about is Debarim (Deuteronomy) 5:12 "GUARD THE SABBATH DAY, TO SET IT APART,AS YHWH YOUR ELOHIM COMMANDED YOU."
oh let me guess though JESUS died so we no longer have to be obedient to our FATHER cause now we can do what we want and keep some commands but not all???
still i love you and want you to hear this ring in your ears when things go really really bad here on earth and all the christians are still here not being taken away (raptured) to some magical place where they watch the Jews and the rest of the world get judged,,in those days you will fall on your face and repent saying FATHER have mercy
the only thing we have is mercy which our FATHER has given us through HIS SON YAHSHUA MESSIAH oh how i love HIM oh how i love my FATHER oh my SALVATION
Praise be to YHWH and HIS SON, for YHWH controls the seen and unseen and there is nothing out of HIS mighty reach,,GLORY to the SON who has saved us from death and sin and holds the keys to the grave,,thank you FATHER for your SPIRIT to comfort us ,,, peace be with you lovers of faith ,,may the FACE of YHWH look upon you all you days =,,may HIS countenance be upon you,,,may HE bless you and keep you!! AMEN
I can understand your struggle, and appreciate your attempt to follow the flow of Paul�s argument here.
To begin with, chapters 9-11 deal with the very important matter of the relationship of Jews and Gentiles in the church (in the New Testament age). The Jews tended to assume that they were �elect� as a nation simply because they were Jews, or, as they put it, because they were the children of Abraham (see Luke 3:7-9; also John 8:33ff.). In Romans 9:1-5 Paul begins by affirming his great love for his fellow-Jews. In verses 4-5 he enumerates some of the privileges of the Jews. In verses 6-13 Paul seeks to prove his point that not all Jews are �true Jews�; that is, not all Jews are believers. The Jews seemed to believe in corporate election, rather than individual election. Their view of election seems to be that God chose to save all Jews, but only a few Gentiles (and those Gentiles who were saved came into salvation by becoming Jewish proselytes). Paul shows that God did elect, but individually, as opposed to corporately. Thus, God chose Isaac, but not Ishmael, even though both were the sons of Abraham. Then, God chose Isaac�s son Jacob, but rejected Esau. This choice was made before the birth of the two boys. The choice was made independently of what either child would do, and thus their election wasn�t earned or merited in any way. In this sovereign choice, God even set aside the normal custom of making the oldest son the primary heir. (The older child ended up serving the younger.)
Before one can understand verses 14-26, he must understand that Paul taught God chooses some (Jews) but rejects others. God elects some, and not others.
In verse 14 an objection is raised, based upon Paul�s teaching of election in the previous verses. The assumption is that God must be unjust to elect some, but not others. �God is not unjust! How could He elect as you have said, Paul?� Paul responds, �May it never be that God is unjust, and He certainly is not!� God is Sovereign, and He can do as He chooses (compare Daniel 4:32, 34-35). God chose Moses for salvation, and to be the leader of the nation Israel. God chose Pharaoh to be an instrument to glorify Himself by his rebellion. (Pharaoh said, �Who is the God of Israel that I should obey Him?� � Exodus 5:2. God answered that question with the plagues and the exodus.) By his unbelief and rebellion, Pharaoh glorified God. God chose Moses for salvation, and Pharaoh for destruction. God is free to show mercy to whom He will, and to also is free not to do so, but to condemn men to the destruction they deserve as sinners.
This takes us through verse 18. God elects some, but not others, and He does so because He is God and He is sovereign. He can do as He chooses. Men do not deserve mercy, but God can bestow it on whomever He chooses. God would only be unjust if He withheld something from men which they had merited. No one merits His mercy. Mercy is not about us, as though we deserved it, but about God, who is gracious to men who are undeserving (see Romans 5:8).
In verse 19 another objection is raised. The argument goes something like this: �So, Paul, you are telling us that God is ultimately the one who determines our destiny, and not we ourselves (by our works). If God bestows salvation on whomever He wills, and withholds it from whomever He wills, then we mortals have no guilt, no culpability. After all, God does what He wants with men, so how can He possibly find us responsible?�
The question that is asked in verse 19 is not really answered. We shall see in chapter 10 that the Gospel must first be preached so that men may make a choice, and that the choice men make is one for which they are held accountable. But here Paul is not interested as much in the question as he is in the attitude behind it. �If being God is to be sovereign, and being sovereign means that no one should dare to question your actions (as we see in Daniel 4), then how do you dare, O man, to make accusations against God? How do you, the creature, find it permissible to question God?� God is the potter; we are the clay. God has the right to make whatever He chooses from the clay. The created being does not have the right to question the actions of the creator. As Creator, God has the right to do whatever He wishes with His creation. The potter makes some vessels for honorable uses (like Moses), and other vessels for common use (like Pharaoh). God has the right to create vessels of wrath, and also to create vessels of mercy. God�s wrath is demonstrated by means of those whom He has created for destruction; God�s mercy is demonstrated by those He has chosen to save.
If this point is true, and God, as God, has the right to choose and to reject, to create vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath, then God has the right to save some Jews, and not to save other Jews. More than this, God has the right to save as many Gentiles as He pleases.
The next verses (25-29) are Paul�s proof from the Old Testament Scriptures themselves that God had purposed from eternity past to save only a remnant of the Jews, and also those who were Gentiles. The fact that many Gentiles were coming to faith while many Jews were not is therefore the fulfillment of God�s eternal plan, and an illustration of God�s sovereignty in divine election.
Verse 30 and following leads into the next chapter. The explanation for the present state of the Jews and the Gentiles is faith. The Jews were rejected because they sought to earn salvation by works; the Gentiles were saved because they simply believed in Christ for salvation.
When Romans 12: 1,and 2 is pleading with the believer to present his body to the lord, and to renew is mind, that he may prove the good, acceptable, and perfect will of God.
In this context the word of God says for you to present your body, and for you to renew your mind, this is done according to, and by the word of God. In otherwords the word of God tells the new man in christ to keep his body in check by the inward man. Keep in mind the Holy Spirit is our helper, not our doer, he is with us to help us in all that the word of God lays out for us to do.
In the new birth all that is new is man's spirit, his body and mind remain unchanged, this is so vital to know and understand, if we do not renew our mind with and according to the word of God we will never grow and mature in spiritual things because the mind will end up dominating the inward man, instead of the new man in christ dominating his body and mind.
The majority of believer's problems are with the unrenewed mind, hindering mankind as knowing the perfect will of God in a matter, it is a lifetime process while upon the earth, and it is relative to the topic matter we can have our mind being renewed to any given subject matter, but it takes know the will of God according to the word of God on any topic.
So many times as the contention is on this forum, the problem is the unrenewed mind, I plan to do a post on being born again so that those can as we all need here being subject to all the unbelief on this topic and we need to continually need to renew our mind to theses truth that we might lead others into them.
Twosparrows: You say that the Jews sinned and lost the blessing, but that ignores verses 15 and 16
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
James: It's always a joy finding someone whose eyes are opened and I look forward to reading your future posts and discussing them. However, I have trouble with the version of the bible you are using. "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?" does not convey the same meaning as " Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? "
What you said about freewill not offending anyone is spot on. In John:
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Why did they go away? I don't know of one Christian who doesn't believe that salvation comes from God in one way or another. Why would that bother them?
Because he's saying that you can't get salvation by anything you do. It has to be given to you. It is a free gift.
"For literally hundreds of years the Jews who were at one time objects of Blessing had become objects of wrath through continual sin."
You did not say the Jews sinned and lost the blessing?
Regardless, trying to paint this as a discussion of nations when it discusses individuals (including Pharaoh, who was neither Jew nor Greek) is reaching.
