Regeneration is the communication of the new heart to sinners by the operation of the Holy Spirit through the Word...a Christ-generated act of instantaneously communicating spiritual life to a man convicted of sin.
Regeneration is expressly denied to be of the will of the flesh, or of the will of man (John 1:13), and is ascribed to God himself. Not all men have faith in Christ; and those who do have it, have it not of themselves; it is the gift of God, worked out through the Redemption which is in Christ through the mighty operation of his Spirit, which is the fruit and effect of His invincible grace. This is because the natural man is wholly captive under the power and dominion of sin, and a slave unto it, and has neither a power nor will to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.
"And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live...Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD." - Ezekiel 37:14
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive [quickened us] with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions � it is by grace you have been saved.
Ephesians 2:4-5
�It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.� (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, �This is why I told you that no one can come to me [i.e. believe in me] unless it is granted him by the Father.�
John 6:63-65
You have been born anew, not of perishable seed but but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God..."�
1 Peter 1:23-25
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.
1 John 5:1
Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate. Whoever has faith is a saved man.
Charles Spurgeon from the sermon �Faith and Regeneration�
If salvation is the implantation of a new, infinite life in the soul, it must be a work of God. Self-caused effects can never rise above the character or qualities of their cause. "Flesh gives birth to flesh but the Spirit gives birth to Spirit," Jesus told Nicodemus. This saving grace cannot be caused by the creature, it can only come from God.
John Hannah from To God be the Glory (pg. 34-5)
The inward offer is a kind of spiritual enlightenment, whereby the promises are presented to the hearts of men, as it were, by an inward word.
One of the most dramatic moments in my life for the shaping of my theology took place in a seminary classroom. One of my professors went to the blackboard and wrote these words in bold letters: "Regeneration Precedes Faith."
These words were a shock to my system. I had entered seminary believing that the key work of man to effect rebirth was faith. I thought that we first had to believe in Christ in order to be born again. I use the words in order here for a reason. I was thinking in terms of steps that must be taken in a certain sequence. I had put faith at the beginning. The order looked something like this:
"Faith - rebirth -justification."
I hadn�t thought that matter through very carefully. Nor had I listened carefully to Jesus� words to Nicodemus. I assumed that even though I was a sinner, a person born of the flesh and living in the flesh, I still had a little island of righteousness, a tiny deposit of spiritual power left within my soul to enable me to respond to the Gospel on my own. Perhaps I had been confused by the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. Rome, and many other branches of Christendom, had taught that regeneration is gracious; it cannot happen apart from the help of God.
No man has the power to raise himself from spiritual death. Divine assistance is necessary. This grace, according to Rome, comes in the form of what is called prevenient grace. "Prevenient" means that which comes from something else. Rome adds to this prevenient grace the requirement that we must "cooperate with it and assent to it" before it can take hold in our hearts.
This concept of cooperation is at best a half-truth. Yes, the faith we exercise is our faith. God does not do the believing for us. When I respond to Christ, it is my response, my faith, my trust that is being exercised. The issue, however, goes deeper. The question still remains: "Do I cooperate with God's grace before I am born again, or does the cooperation occur after?" Another way of asking this question is to ask if regeneration is monergistic or synergistic. Is it operative or cooperative? Is it effectual or dependent? Some of these words are theological terms that require further explanation.
A monergistic work is a work produced singly, by one person. The prefix mono means one. The word erg refers to a unit of work. Words like energy are built upon this root. A synergistic work is one that involves cooperation between two or more persons or things. The prefix syn -
means "together with." I labor this distinction for a reason. The debate between Rome and Luther hung on this single point. At issue was this: Is regeneration a monergistic work of God or a synergistic work that requires cooperation between man and God? When my professor wrote "Regeneration precedes faith" on the blackboard, he was clearly siding with the monergistic answer. After a person is regenerated, that person cooperates by exercising faith and trust. But the first step is the work of God and of God alone.
The reason we do not cooperate with regenerating grace before it acts upon us and in us is because we can- not. We cannot because we are spiritually dead. We can no more assist the Holy Spirit in the quickening of our souls to spiritual life than Lazarus could help Jesus raise him for the dead.
When I began to wrestle with the Professor's argument, I was surprised to learn that his strange-sounding teaching was not novel. Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield - even the great medieval theologian Thomas Aquinas taught this doctrine. Thomas Aquinas is the Doctor Angelicus of the Roman Catholic Church. For centuries his theological teaching was accepted as official dogma by most Catholics. So he was the last person I expected to hold such a view of regeneration. Yet Aquinas insisted that regenerating grace is operative grace, not cooperative grace. Aquinas spoke of prevenient grace, but he spoke of a grace that comes before faith, which is regeneration.
These giants of Christian history derived their view from Holy Scripture. The key phrase in Paul's Letter to the Ephesians is this: "...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have you been saved)" (Eph. 2:5). Here Paul locates the time when regeneration occurs. It takes place 'when we were dead.' With one thunderbolt of apostolic revelation all attempts to give the initiative in regeneration to man are smashed. Again, dead men do not cooperate with grace. Unless regeneration takes place first, there is no possibility of faith.
This says nothing different from what Jesus said to Nicodemus. Unless a man is born again first, he cannot possibly see or enter the kingdom of God. If we believe that faith precedes regeneration, then we set our thinking and therefore ourselves in direct opposition not only to giants of Christian history but also to the teaching of Paul and of our Lord Himself.
(Excerpt from the book, The Mystery of the Holy Spirit, by R.C. Sproul, Christian Focus
from A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith 2nd Edition
Why do some people repent and respond by faith in Christ to the divine summons to faith while others do not? Concerning those who believe in Christ�s name John immediately says in John 1:13: �[These are they] who have been begotten [egennēthēsan], not by blood, nor by the will of the flesh, nor by the will of a husband, but by God.� By this particular reference to God�s �begetting� activity John refers to regeneration, and clearly suggests by his statement that, while faith is the instrumental precondition to justification and adoption, regeneration is the necessary precondition and efficient cause of faith in Jesus Christ. In short, regeneration causally precedes faith.
This sequential order of �regeneration as the cause, faith in Jesus Christ as the effect� is supported by Jesus� statements in John 3:3, 5. When Jesus teaches that only those who have been �begotten from above� (anōthen) can �see� and �enter� the kingdom of God (figurative expressions for �faith activities�), he surely intends that regeneration is essential to faith as the latter�s causal prius.
John�s statement in 1 John 5:1, �Everyone who believes [pisteuōn] that Jesus is the Christ has been begotten [gegennētai] by God,� also bears out the sequential cause and effect relationship between regeneration as cause and faith as effect. It is true, if one were to restrict his assessment of John�s intended meaning to only this one verse, that one could conceivably argue that John, by his reference to regeneration, was simply saying something more, in a descriptive way, about everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ�that he �has been begotten by God,� but that he need not be understood as suggesting that a cause and effect relationship exists between God�s regenerating activity and saving faith. But when one takes into account that John says in 1 John 3:9a that �everyone who has been begotten [gegennēmenos] by God does not do sin, because [hoti] his seed abides in him� and then in 1 John 3:9b that �he is not able to sin, because [hoti] he has been begotten [gegennētai�the word in 5:1] by God,� we definitely find a cause and effect relationship between God�s regenerating activity as the cause and the Christian�s not sinning as one effect of that regenerating activity.
Then when he later makes the simple statement in 1 John 5:18 that �everyone who has7 In every other place where it occurs in the Gospel of John�3:31; 19:11, 23� anōthen, means �from above.� been begotten [perfect tense] by God sins [present tense] not,� though he does not say so in so many words, it is surely appropriate, because of his earlier pattern of speech in 1 John 3:9, to understand him to mean that the cause behind one�s not sinning is God�s regenerating activity. What is significant in 5:18 for 5:1 is his pattern of speech. When John declares in 5:1 that everyone who believes (pisteuōn) that Jesus is the Christ has been begotten (gegennētai) by God, it is highly unlikely that he intended simply to say about the Christian, in addition to the fact that he believes that Jesus is the Christ, that he has also been begotten of God and nothing more. His established pattern of speech would suggest that he intended to say that God�s regenerating activity is the cause of one�s believing that Jesus is the Christ, and conversely that such faith is the effect of that regenerating work.
When one adds to this Paul�s insistence in Ephesians 2:1�4 that he and Christians generally had been spiritually dead in their trespasses and sins until God, �who is rich in mercy, because of his great love by which he loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive [synezōopoiēsen�Paul�s term for regeneration] with Christ,� the conclusion cannot be avoided that God�s regenerating work must causally precede a man�s faith response to God�s summons to faith. Consequently, regeneration must be positioned before repentance unto life and faith in Jesus Christ in the ordo salutis as the cause of both. But since Romans 8:29� 30 clearly teaches that glorification is the last act in the ordo, implying thereby, when Paul speaks earlier of calling, that he intended to teach that effectual calling is the first act in the �series of acts and processes� in the ordo, we may safely conclude that regeneration either follows upon calling or is the effecting force within calling which makes God�s summons effectual (I shall argue the case for the latter possibility later).
Accordingly, we have now established the following order of application: effectual calling, regeneration, repentance unto life and faith in Jesus Christ, justification, adoption, glorification.
REGENERATION (NEW BIRTH)
The Biblical Data
The framers of the Westminster standards offer no separate and distinct chapter or questions on regeneration, preferring to treat this doctrine, as we have already noted, within the context of effectual calling. But the Scriptures have much to say about this gracious work of the Spirit. Paul employs the word (palingenesia, �regeneration�) itself only once with reference to the spiritual renewal of an individual: �Not by works which we have done in righteousness but according to his mercy he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit� (Titus 3:5). But he elaborates the doctrinal notion elsewhere under the terminology of (1) lifegiving resurrection with Christ (Eph. 2:5��when we were dead in trespasses, he made us alive with Christ�; Col. 2:13��when you were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ�; see also Rom. 4:17) and (2) the divine work of new creation (2 Cor. 5:17� �if any man is in Christ, he is a new creation�; Gal. 6:15��what counts is a new creation�; Eph. 2:10��we are God�s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus�). Peter and James, as we noted in another context, speak respectively of God �begetting anew� (1 Pet. 1:23) and �bringing forth� (James 1:18).
It is particularly John, following the teaching of Jesus himself, however, who is in a unique sense the �theologian of the birth from above.� John records Jesus� �birth from above [John 3:3, 7�, gennēthēnai anōthen] discourse� in John 3:1�15, and refers eleven times to God�s �begetting,� in John 1:13 (�who were begotten by God�), 1 John 2:29 (�by him he has been begotten�), 3:9 (�the one who has been begotten by God,� �by God he has been begotten�), 4:7 (�by God he has been begotten�), 5:1 (�by God he has been begotten,� �the One who begot,� �the one who has been begotten by him�), 5:4 (�whatever has been begotten by God�), and 5:18 (�the one who has been begotten by God,� �the one begotten by God�).
Its Effects
By this divine work the sinner is re-created in and to newness of life, has the defilement of his heart cleansed or �washed� away (Ezek. 36:25�26; John 3:5; Titus 3:5), and is enabled to �see� and to �enter� the kingdom of God by faith (John 3:3, 5). He is also enabled to believe in Jesus (John 1:12�13), to believe that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 5:1), to love others, particularly other Christians (1 John 4:7; 5:1); and to do righteousness and to shun the life of sin (1 John 3:9; 5:18).
Its Divine Monergism
Jesus expressly taught the divine monergism in regeneration when he declared: �No one can come to me, unless the Father who sent me draws [helkysē] him� (John 6:44), �Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me� (John 6:45), and �No one can come to me, unless it has been granted [ē dedomenon] him from the Father� (John 6:65). From the analogy which he drew between the wind�s natural operation and the Spirit�s regenerating work (John 3:8), Jesus taught, in addition to the facticity (�The wind blows�) and the efficacy (�and you hear the sound of it�) of the latter, both the sovereignty (�The wind blows wherever it pleases�) and the inscrutable mysteriousness (�you cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes�) of the Spirit�s regenerating work. And while Jesus declares that the birth �from above� is absolutely necessary (dei) for faith (John 3:7), he never preaches the �birth from above� in the imperative mood as if his auditor could in his own power produce it. By his metaphor of a �begetting from above� to describe the Spirit�s quickening work, Jesus underscored its divine monergism. J. I. Packer observes:
Infants do not induce, or cooperate in, their own procreation and birth; no more can those who are �dead in trespasses and sins� prompt the quickening operation of God�s Spirit within them (see Eph. 2:1�10). Spiritual vivification is a free, and to man mysterious, exercise of divine power (John 3:8), not explicable in terms of the combination or cultivation of existing human resources (John 3:6), not caused or i nduced by any human efforts (John 1:12�13) or merits (Titus 3:3�7), and not, therefore, to be equated with, or attributed to, any of the experiences, decisions, and acts to which it gives rise and by which it may be known to have taken place.
Jesus� metaphor points up how erroneous is Arminianism�s synergistic construction of regeneration, which makes man�s spiritual renewal dependent on his cooperation with grace, and liberalism�s vision of redemption, which denies the need for prevenient grace altogether. Regeneration is the precondition of repentance unto life and faith in Jesus Christ; it is not dependent upon these for its appearance in the Christian life.
Summary of the Doctrine
Regeneration is not the replacing of the substance of fallen human nature with another substance, nor simply the change in one or more of the faculties of the fallen spiritual nature, nor the perfecting of the fallen spiritual nature. Rather, it is the subconscious implanting of the principle of the new spiritual life in the soul, effecting an instantaneous change in the whole man, intellectually, emotionally, and morally, and enabling the elect sinner to respond in repentance and faith to the outward or public gospel proclamation directed to his conscious understanding and will. No extra-biblical words have captured better both the divine monergism and the inevitable effects of the Spirit�s regenerating work than the following verse from Charles Wesley�s great hymn, �And can it be that I should gain�:
Long my imprisoned spirit lay Fast bound in sin and nature�s night;
Thine eye diffused a quick�ning ray,
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.
All this is illustrated in the case of Lydia, about whom Luke writes: �Lydia was listening, whose heart the Lord opened to respond to the things spoken by Paul� (Acts 16:14).
Excerpts from A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith 2nd Edition -
Revised and Updated by Dr. Robert L. Reymond pg. 709
James, Ezekiel 37:14 isn't even in reference to born-again believers or the "regeneration precedes faith" that you believe must occur before one can believe. Read the chapter instead of picking out a verse to hang alongside other verses to support your belief. Look at verse 11-
Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
Can you really attach that verse to your belief in the way you're doing it and keep the context of the entire chapter to your belief as well? There is no way it would make sense. The chapter is about Israel. Not spiritual Israel or whatever you call the Church as Covenant Theology does, but the nation of Israel and it's people; God's people.
You also like to use John 3:3 as if this was proof of your "regeneration precedes faith" belief. Jesus simply tells Nicodemus that one must be born-again in order to see the kingdom of God. Jesus does not tell Nicodemus to wait for the Holy Spirit to make him born-again so he can then believe and have faith in Christ. John 3:3 does not support your belief in "regeneration precedes faith". It supports the simple truth that one must be born-again to enter the kingdom of God.
As a side note.. Babies do participate in the birth process. :winksmile:
Mat 3:2 �And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.�
Mark 1:15 � And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.�
Mark 6:12 � And they went out, and preached that men should repent.�
FAITH ~
Deu 32:20 ~ � And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation,[[[ children in whom is no faith.� ]]]
There is a whole bunch in the OT to many to list Betwix these two Books�.
Hab 2:4 � Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his [ faith. � ]
Mat 6:30 � Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little [ faith?� ] And continues through Mat 21:21
REGENERATION ~
Mat 19:28 �And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the [ regeneration ] when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Titus 3:5 �Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, [[[ by the washing of regeneration, ]]] and [[[ renewing of the Holy Ghost; ]]]� 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.�
BORN AGAIN ~
John 3:3 �Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. �
1 Pet 1:23 �Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.�
I know your Reformers Bible goes in the same Order as others�BUT�Mat 6:30 [ FAITH ] comes afor Mat 19:28 [ REGENERATION ] keeping it All in Proper Context of course�.:purpleangel:....xo
James, sorry, bu you and if your articles are to say otherwise, these are also in error.
A person CANNOT BE REGENERATION BEFORE HE/SHE HAS BEEN SAVED, which means the person MUST first hear the gospel in order to have faith to believe, then repent of their sins, and then and ONLY then will the Holy Spirit come to seal that person's salvation. You cannot be born again wihtou first hearing the gospel which brings repentance according to what God teaches throughout the word..
I will not go through all of these but to give a few. After Peter had preached the word of God to the large crowd that gathered on the day of Pentecost, the Bible says this: "Now whne they (the people) heard this (the gospel Peter had just finished preaching), they were pricked in their heart and said to Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brothers, what shall we we do?
Then Peter said to them, "repent, AND BE BAPTIZED EVERY ONE OF YOU IN THE NAME OF jESUS cHRIST FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, AND you will receive the gift of the holy spirit, for this promise is to you, and to your children, and to ALL who are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God will call." Acts chapter 2.
And after Peter had preached to the council he said, "Therefore, you REPENT, and be converted, so that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing (HOLY SPIRIT) will come from the presence of the Lord, and He will send Jesus Christ, who before was preached to you." Acts chapter 3.
When the gospel was preached in Samaria by Philip the Bibles say this,"And when the people ahd HEARD the gospel Philip had preachedm they believed the things he said concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jeuss Christ and they were baptized , bith the men and the women. And when the apostles who were in Jerusalem heard the the people in Samaria had RECEIVED the WORD OF GOD, they sent to them Peter and John, and when Peter and John prayed for them (the people), that they might RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT, for He had not fallen upon none of them only those who wre baptized in the name of the Lord. Then Peter and John laid hands on them and the peole RECEIVED the Holy Ghost. Acts chapter8.
Philip and the Eunch in Acts chapter; Paul's Conversion in Acts chapter 9: The conversion of Cronelius in chapter 10 tells the sotriy also about Cornelius hearing the gospel abput Jesus FIRST THEN HE RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT. And on and on throughout the book of Acts the people FIRST HEARD THE GOSPEL of Jesus Chirst, Repented of their sins, and Tehn received the Holy Spirit of God.
REGENERATION COMES BY FAITH, AND WITHOUT FAITH
Question: "What is regeneration according to the Bible?"
Answer: Another word for regeneration is rebirth, from which we get the phrase �born again.� To be born again is opposed to, and distinguished from, our first birth, when we were conceived in sin. The new birth is a spiritual, holy, and heavenly birth signified by a being made alive in a spiritual sense.
Our first birth, on the other hand, was one of spiritual death because of inherited sin. Man in his natural state is �dead in trespasses and sins� until we are �made alive� (regenerated) by Christ when we place our faith in Him (Ephesians 2:1). After regeneration, we begin to see, and hear, and seek after divine things, and to live a life of faith and holiness. Now Christ is formed in the hearts; we are now partakers of the divine nature, having been made new creatures. God, not man, is the source of this (Ephesians 2:1, 8). It is not by men's works, but by God�s own good will and pleasure. His great love and free gift, His rich grace and abundant mercy, are the cause of it and these attributes of God are displayed in the regeneration and conversion of sinners.
Regeneration is part of the "salvation package," if you will, along with sealing (Ephesians 1:14), adoption (Galatians 4:5), reconciliation (2 Corinthians 5:18-20), and many other salvation concepts. Being born again or born from above is parallel to regeneration (John 3:6-7; Ephesians 2:1; 1 Peter 1:23; John 1:13; 1 John 3:9; 4:7; 5:1, 4, 18). Simply put, regeneration is God making a person spiritually alive, a new creation, as a result of faith in Jesus Christ. The reason regeneration is necessary is that prior to salvation we are not God's children (John 1:12-13); rather, we are children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3; Romans 5:18-20). Before salvation, we are degenerate. After salvation we are regenerated. The result of regeneration is peace with God (Romans 5:1), new life (Titus 3:5; 2 Corinthians 5:17), and eternal sonship (John 1:12-13; Galatians 3:26). This regeneration is eternal and begins the process of sanctification wherein we become the people God intended for us to be (Romans 8:28-30).
The Bible is clear that the only means of regeneration is by faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross. No amount of good works or keeping of the law can regenerate the heart which from birth is �deceitful and wicked above all things� (Jeremiah 17:9). This concept of the new birth is unique to Christianity. No other religion offers a cure for the total depravity of the human heart, preferring instead to outline an often massive body of works and deeds that must be done to gain favor with God. God has told us, though, that �by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight� (Romans 3:20). Total regeneration of the heart is necessary for salvation. Paul explains this concept perfectly in Galatians 2:20: �I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.� This is true regeneration.
Side Bar: In Regeneration, the soul is both passive and active, passive while it is still in bondage to sin, and active when it is released from sins. the rgenerating (washing) is the total work of the Holy Spirit and is not conditioned by a prior acquience of the soul, but WHEN THE SOUL IS RELEASED FROM SIN *REPENTANT) REGENRATED, it voluntarily and spontaneously turns toward God in fellowship.
NO ONE CAN BE REGENERATED WITHOUT FAITH TO BELEIVE AND REPENTANCE FIRST! Holy Spirit will not come live inside an unclean house, so how can you be filled with the Holy Spirit and be born again before you repent of your sins?
There are no scriptures that you have provided to say you are regenerated firt and then you are born again, all scritpure say as I have shonw the bible speak about salvation and the sealingof the Holy Spirit in a person's life who comes to know Chirst.
"And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live...Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD." - Ezekiel 37:14
Notice the order. God puts His Spirit in a person and THEN.......they come alive spiritually.
Human nature has always been the same since The Fall.
71 gives us more evidence: . Look at verse 11-
Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
The "whole House of Israel". God has ONE chosen people, and WE Christians ARE spiritual Israel.
Now keep in mind this is ALL about the ORDER of things. What happens FIRST????
Did you believe, and THEN the Holy Spirit was allowed to make you come alive???
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive [quickened us] with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions � it is by grace you have been saved.
Ephesians 2:4-5
According to those verses, WHEN did God MAKE us alive? When we were dead in transgressions.
Now, you can't say after we accepted Christ, because it says WHEN we were dead in Transgressions.
Why is all three of you DEMAND that you saved yourself??? That You made yourself to be Born again.
�It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.� (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, �This is why I told you that no one can come to me [i.e. believe in me] unless it is granted him by the Father.�
John 6:63-65
Now, I want to hear ET, 71 and Jude all say it together, "NO JESUS, THE FLESH IS OF AVAIL"!!!
Come on lets hear it. If you are going to contradict the plain words of Jesus, you might as well be bold about it!!
71 said:
You also like to use John 3:3 as if this was proof of your "regeneration precedes faith" belief. Jesus simply tells Nicodemus that one must be born-again in order to see the kingdom of God. Jesus does not tell Nicodemus to wait for the Holy Spirit to make him born-again so he can then believe and have faith in Christ. John 3:3 does not support your belief in "regeneration precedes faith". It supports the simple truth that one must be born-again to enter the kingdom of God.
James replies:
Lets leave me out of it. I am just one man. What you should say is, "Christians all throughtout history, have read about Jesus and Nicodemus and THEY HAVE AGREED that fallen mankind must first be regenerated by the Holy Spirit before they can SEE or ENTER the Kingdom of God."
Why did you leave that part out 71? Why did you NOT mention that Jesus said a person can NOT ENTER the kingdom of God unless they are first "born again"?
And Jude, you started out giving verses that say that we are told to repent?
I think we all agree that a person has to repent.
This is discussion is about what order do faith and regeneration come in, which comes first.
Titus 3:5 �Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, [[[ by the washing of regeneration, ]]] and [[[ renewing of the Holy Ghost; ]]]� 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.�
This is a portion of Scripture you gave Jude, and notice that God did NOT save us according to our decision....
NOT by any "works of righteousness".
It says that He saved us by the washing of regeneration.
I also notice Jude that you did the SAME THING 71 did! You mention John 3;3 but you LEAVE OUT the part
where Jesus says that you cannot even ENTER the Kingdom of God UNLESS you have already been born again.
WHY did you do that Jude??
Now ET adds another issue without mentioning it:
A person CANNOT BE REGENERATION BEFORE HE/SHE HAS BEEN SAVED, which means the person MUST first hear the gospel in order to have faith to believe, then repent of their sins, and then and ONLY then will the Holy Spirit come to seal that person's salvation. You cannot be born again wihtou first hearing the gospel which brings repentance according to what God teaches throughout the word..
Now, ET, the Word and the Spirit work together, but that is NOT the subject of this thread.
The subject of this thread is which comes first, faith or regeneration?
ET you spend some time talking about the Apostles preaching to people but you never even show ONE verse where the order of these things is taught.
1 Corinthians 12:3: Therefore I want you to understand that no one
speaking by the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus be cursed!"
and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit.
Now, here AGAIN I have given ANOTHER verse that SHOWS THE ORDER.
"NO ONE...that means NO ONE 71, ET, and Jude! NO ONE can say "Jesus is Lord" EXCEPT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.
1. So much for the fantasy of free will.
2. The ONLY people who CAN say that Jesus is Lord ALREADY HAVE the Holy Spirit!
Now, ET you spent some time showing Scripture concerning the Apostles preaching to people.
What do you think of this verse:
Acts 13:48: And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and
glorified the word of God; and as many as were ORDAINED to eternal
life BELIEVED.
Notice ONLY THOSE who were ORDAINED TO ETERNAL LIFE, were the ones who believed.
Later in acts the Bible again SHOWS US THE ORDER of these things:
Acts 16:14: One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city
of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshipper of God.
THE LORD OPENED HER HEART TO GIVE HEED to what was said by Paul.
ET, according to Scripture the REASON that Lydia accepted what Paul said was that the Lord opened her heart.
So much for free will again! But notice the Lord opened her heart SO THAT SHE WOULD "give heed" to what Paul said.
You give scriptures where the Apostles told people to repent, but that does NOT tell us they had the ability!
It just means that they preached repentance.
Now, if you wish to give evidence that FAITH comes first and THEN we are born again, you need to give actual scriptures that say that!
NONE of you did that, because it is not possible. THERE ARE NO scriptures that say that faith comes first.
I have just given PLENTY that say that God's Holy Spirit comes FIRST. Jesus says a person cannot even see or ENTER the kingdom of God unless they have ALREADY been born again by the Holy Spirit.
Jesus said this, that all are born with faith the size of a musterd seed. jesus said it and I believe it. Now we have no further discussion as jesus is always right and we are wrong. not my view, but the words of jesus
