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Are Arabs Israel?
Posted : 28 Mar, 2011 11:27 AM
Conversation with a Jew:
Shalom brother,
Knowing that the TRUTH is ONE and Jesus is this TRUTH, let's consider to study the Holy Scripture as we have been doing it with you. Because we LIVE to KNOW God and to MAKE Him KNOWN.
To expect perfection of oneself, when G-d does not, is also a sin. And this breeds only despair and fear (as you demonstrate in your repetitively stated fear of G-d's "eternal wrath" and "eternal Hell").- Brother, God calls you to fear Him.
Proverbs 1:7 declares, "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge."
Until we understand who God is and develop a reverential fear of Him, we cannot have true wisdom. True wisdom comes only from understanding who God is and that He is holy, just, and righteous. That's why we talk always about fear of the Lord and His wrath and punishment for our sins and HOW to BE FORGINEN of ALL our sins though FAITH in God Jesus.
Deuteronomy 10:12, 20-21 records, "And now, O Israel, what does the LORD your God ask of you but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Fear the LORD your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. He is your praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes." The fear of God is the basis for our walking in His ways, serving Him, and, yes, loving Him.
Jews fear neither, per His Word.- You are WRONG according to your Hebrew Scripture I have just quoted you before! God is calling you to fear Him. Why? To draw you closer to Himself and far from your sins.
His Gifts of Life, Creation, and Torah are for our enjoyment, and for our care.- Brother, you can delight in the Lord. Why did God give you His laws and words through His prophets? To KEEP you on the right road/path and way leading NOT to the false gods and idols but to the Kingdom of Heaven.
Delight yourself in the LORD and he will give you the desires of your heart. Psalm 37: 4
We are not G-d, but we are His Creation in love.- The Holy Scripture calls people gods. Please consider now what your Holy Scripture says. Let's start with a look at Psalm 82, the Psalm that Jesus quotes in John 10:34.
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'?
The Hebrew word translated "gods" in Psalm 82:6 is Elohim. It usually refers to the one true God, but it does have other uses. Psalm 82:1 says, "God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the gods." It is clear from the next three verses that the word "gods" refers to magistrates, judges, and other people who hold positions of authority and rule. This use of the word "gods" to refer to humans is rare, but it is found elsewhere in the Old Testament. For example, when God sent Moses to Pharaoh, He said, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh" (Exodus 7:1). This simply means that Moses, as the messenger of God, was speaking God's words and would therefore be God's representative to the king. The Hebrew word Elohim is translated "judges" in Exodus 21:6 and 22:8, 9, and 28.
Don't vainly expect more of yourself than G-d does. This is hubris, vanity--sinful�.
- Brother, we SHOULD to be perfect like God is perfect! We SHOULD to be sinless as God calls us to be sinless. He CALLS us to be HOLY like He is holy! His nature and essence is divine! But how we can be holy? It is ONLY possible if we would NOT have any sins! How to get rid of our sins to be holy and righteous and perfect as God expects it from us? God said to be forgiven of our sin we should be forgiven ONLY by God. It means that our righteousness cannt make us perfect! It is just self-righteousness like you all Muslims try to posses. But it is NOT enough to be righteous in our own eyes because ONLY God can forgive our sin and ONLY God can be perfect and HOLY. Can a killer dwell in the holy place of God? No, by no means. No one of shahyds will be there! Thus, we should not posses our self-righteousness but we should GET it from God. He imputed the righteousness of His Son to us to make us perfect and forgiven of ALL our sins. Thus we are sinners are forgiven. Moreover, God will refine us like GOLD during all days of our lives to prepare us to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Thus, can we be perfect? Yes. If we are forgiven of all our sins. Jesus forgave us. Can we be holy? Yes. And can we be like Jesus? Yes. Can we have a divine nature within us? Yes, if the Holy Spirit lives in us. Then we are born of God and only in this case we are able to enter into the kingdom of Heaven as per Jesus' words. (So, G-d became a Man and we are able to be like the perfect Man Jesus. His nature is Divine and our nature is Divine when we are BORN by G-d. This birth is called in the Holy Scripture as 'to be born again'. Jesus said that NO ONE will enter the Kingdom of heaven unless He will be born again.)
When we look at Jesus we are able to see His Father.- Why? Because Jesus is the exact representation of the Father. He forgave sins to people and even resurrected them. He healed incurable diseases.
The supposition that Jesus could take and atone for any sins except his own is not supported by Hebrew Scripture, and that you would quote from Ezekiel 18:20 to support your contrarian view is incredulous to anyone with knowledge of Hebrew Scripture..- Brother, do you remember what is the Passover? When Jews were set free of their slavery in Egypt? The angel of the Lord moved through Egypt destroying the firstborn of all people and animals (see Exodus 11 and 12.) This was the final of the ten plagues God visited upon Egypt designed to force Pharaoh to let the Israelites leave the country and their captivity. Who did not die during that time? Jews were instructed to take some of the blood of a lamb and "put it on the two doorposts and on the lintel of the houses where they eat it. Then they shall eat the flesh on that night; roasted in fire, with unleavened bread and with bitter herbs they shall eat it." They were commanded by God to take the blood of a male lamb�one without blemish�and smear it on the doorposts of their houses. When the angel of the Lord saw the blood, he would "pass over" that house. It is just symbol that those houses where the blood is a sign will be alive. It is a symbol that by the blood of God Jesus shed to save us we will be saved from the wrath of God. The bread is the symbol that we should be sinless/holy to survive. God Jesus is able to make us holy imputing us His righteousness. So, this event is a foreshadowing of the spotless Lamb of God, Jesus, whose blood would cover the sins of those who believe in Him, causing God's judgment to pass over them. Ever since that night, Jews have celebrated the Passover in remembrance of God's grace to them. So, you celebrate but you are not forgiven! This blood does NOT cover your sins yet! That's why you are destined to perish like Egyptians if you will disobey God Jesus and if your sin will not be forgiven by Him!
Thus, per His Word, we are all responsible for our own sins.- Right.
In our discussions, therefore, we can see where, and why, Christians are not Hebrews/Jews and Hebrews/Jews are not Christians, and why Christianity stepped outside "the fence of Torah" and became its own distinct and separate religion from Judaism.- Yes brother we believe in God and His prophecies and you in Judaism REJECT God by IGNORING His words in His prophecies. You do it the same way like Muslims! Thus, KNOWING what God said about Jesus and His redemption and the Small Remnant of people who are forgiven of their sins (it was said in Isaiah 53) you PREFER to close your eyes and ears and ignore REDEMPTION and FORGIVENESS of your sins. That's why these sins are left on your hands until now. Just remember if your sin is not forgiven yet, it means you will be judged by God for them. Be ready already now for that.
I said that we are ambassadors of God who are authorized by Him to call you to believe in Him and to warn you of His punishment. You said that we should be right before God first to speak up instead of Him. That's why I told you that "So, it means if we are sinners then we are unable to be God's ambassadors." I said it according to your point of view. And you yourself gave an answer to the question and refuted your point:
Another non sequitur. You state: All human beings will sin. This is true. [Kohelet (Ecc.) 7:20]
Therefore we can not be "a light unto the Nations". This is untrue. [Isaiah 42:6]
Part of being representative's by example, living per G-d's Teachings, is demonstrating that perfection is not required (nor possible).
Right. We are sinners. Perfection is not required to be God's representatives/ambassadors but we � ALL believers in God Jesus- are authorized by God Jesus to testify to this world about His forgiveness. The coming judgment and righteousness.
How wonderful to know that G-d understands we are only human, will make mistakes, and we can take the steps He has provided us and be fully forgiven. That we can, by our own efforts, continually strive to become better tomorrow than we are today. And G-d and His Teachings will guide us. This provides both an infinite sense of worth and purpose.- Brother, just do not forget that scripture of 'cow' in Indian religion is NOT able to make you forgiven of your sins! Thus, if you understand your mistakes this understanding cannt make you FREE of your mistakes! We can be forgiven ONLY by the true God and according to the ORDER which was established by Him. Where is this order in the Hebrew Scripture? In your favorite verse- Isaiah 53! God said that a MAN will set us FREE of our sins by talking our sins to His HOLY Body! Only in this case we can be forgiven and belong to the SMALL REMNANT! So, by striving to become better tomorrow that you are today in your cow worship in India you will NOT be perfect. You have in this case only one perspective to become a cow like your cow god. At least inwardly because outwardly it is not so easy�hahahah. So, if your religion is NOT true and you do not follow the TRUE God then you will be judged by God who NEVER was in Islam and in any other cow worship.
You said that G-d's concern is (yet again and always) right behavior not right belief. And I answered that You are wrong brother. Because God gave us many examples in the Old Testament (your Holy Jewish Scripture) that He is AGAINST any other gods and idols. But you said that it is another non sequitur. Let me give you an example to prove my words that God is against any false gods and idols: Open the Taurat/Torah and reread the 10 HOLY Commandments and you will see that in the first command God said that he FORBIDS any idol worship and worship of any false gods. Such people will die in the hell fire or in the lake of fire.
This is a horrible distortion of G-d's Word. In Hebrew Scripture, G-d forbids His People from worshipping other gods. He does not forbid other peoples, nor does He ever state Hebrews/Jews must "kill other nations who did not want to get rid of their idols."- Brother, you have refutes this statement by saying it:
The conquest of Canaan is a difficult section of Hebrew Scripture for Jews, in that it is "religious" cleansing of the land of idolatry justified to keep the temptation toward idolatry from infecting the Israelites at the time when they were few and merely one or two generations from Egyptian captivity where polytheism was the belief of their masters. The commandment against idolatry was for Israel. Other nations were not forbidden, but by the example of righteous living, Israel was to represent and "show" the benefit of G-d's teachings to the Nations, and thereby spread G-d's Good Name and Word.
In 1 Samuel 15:2-3, God commanded Saul and the Israelites, "This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'" God ordered similar things when the Israelites were invading the Promised Land (Deuteronomy 2:34; 3:6; 20:16-18). Why would God have the Israelites exterminate an entire group of people, women and children included? God knew what the results (God knows the end from the beginning) would be if Israel did not completely eradicate the Amalekites. If Israel did not carry out God's orders, the Amalekites would come back to "haunt" the Israelites again and again. In regard to the Canaanites, God commanded, "However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them � the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites � as the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God" (Deuteronomy 20:16-18).
E.g. Isaiah 53 states that the suffering servant was "despised". Was Jesus despised? Not according to the New Testament- Jesus was very much despised. But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. (Luke 17:25) Thus, Jesus was rejected/despised by His people Jews and His disciples Judas and Peter.
Isaiah 53 states the suffering servant "had done NO violence." Was Jesus ever violent? The NT shows he was, and calls for it (and certainly his followers down the centuries did):- Brother, you are wrong. Jesus was God of peace. And He judges in righteousness. Let's consider what He said and why:
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.--[Matthew 10:34]- If you know the Scripture then you would know that Jesus is the Word of God and the Word of God is like sword. God will judge you by His sword. Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Description of Jesus: He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. Revelation 1: 16.
Do you remember Jesus healed the cut ear of one of the soldiers who came to arrest Him! He proved that His way id the WAY of LOVE and SOLVATION and He so many times taught against violence! Jesus tells us in Matthew 5:21-22 that murderous anger can lead the angry man to judgment from God as quickly as a physical blow. The violence he exhibits toward someone else can be brought back upon himself by God. Look at that:
"You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.' But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable Matthew 5:21�22
Moreover Jesus came to save people! "For the Son of Man(Jesus) has come to save that which was lost. "What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? "And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. "Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. Matthew 18:11-14
Jesus said that the greatest commandment is to love God and people with all of your being. How dare you to claim Him to be a violent person if the Scripture says it?:
Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 'On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Matthew 22:37 � 40
Moreover, according to the Scripture, all Christian soldiers need the same rigid training to know how to properly handle the Sword of the Spirit "which is the word of God."
"And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;" --[John 2:14-15]- Why did Jesus drove sellers out of the temple? Let's read the context and what Jesus told them: And He (Jesus) said to those who sold doves, "Take these things away! Do not make My Father's house a house of merchandise!" Then His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for Your house has eaten Me up." John 2: 16-17
He even cursed a fig tree for not bearing fruit out-of-season [Mark 11:20].- Like all Scripture, the key to understanding this passage comes from understanding the context in which it happened. In order to properly understand this passage, we must understand of the importance of the fig tree as it relates to the nation of Israel and understand how the fig tree is often used in the Scriptures to symbolically represent Israel. So, on His way, Jesus was hungry and saw a fig tree in the distance that had leaves on it (Mark 11:13). Upon coming to the tree expecting to find something to eat, Jesus instead discovered that the fig tree had no fruit on it and cursed the tree saying, "May no fruit ever come from you again!" Why did Jesus curse the fig tree if it was not the right season for figs? The answer to this question can be determined by studying the characteristics of fig trees. The fruit of the fig tree generally appears before the leaves, and, because the fruit is green it blends in with the leaves right up until it is almost ripe. Therefore, when Jesus and His disciples saw from a distance that the tree had leaves, they would have expected it to also have fruit on it even though it was earlier in the season than what would be normal for a fig tree to be bearing fruit. So, it was a symbol for us that Jesus was effectively denouncing Israel's worship of God! With the cursing of the fig tree, He was symbolically denouncing Israel as a nation who should worship God and they REJECTED this God Jesus who is the Creator of Israel and any visible and invisible worlds and, in a sense, even denouncing unfruitful "Christians" (that is, people who profess to be Christian but have no evidence of a relationship with Christ..they live in their sins and rejected God Jesus by their godless life style). Thus Jesus said that such people who reject God are fruitless and they will PERISH.
Israel in the singular is called G-d's servant throughout Isaiah, both explicitly (Isa. 41:8-9; 44:1-2; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3) and implicitly (Isa. 42:19-20; 43:10) - the Messiah is not.- Just reread or better memorize your favorite chapter in Isaiah 53:
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities. Isaiah 53: 11
So, God called the Man who should redeem us of all our sins as Servant. If you think that only Israel is God's servant that you should know that you are wrong! Because according to the Isaiah 53 God CLEARLY said that this Servant should be rejected by people, beaten and insulted and killed and buried. Where did they bury Israel? Do not follow the madness of other people! But analyze the Holy Scripture! Thus, who was taken from prison and from judgment according to Isaiah 53? And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. For the transgressions of My people He was stricken. I you are God's people Israel then who was stricken for your transgression? Yet He opened not His mouth. Who did not open His mouth? Israel? God said that He is a MAN who was despised and rejected by men, A MAN of sorrows and acquainted with grief. Thus, not knowing your Hebrew Scripture you allowed to deceive you. Who did deceive you History? And WHY should you die for your sins being not forgiven and justified by God Jesus killed instead of you?! Your IGNORANCE and the lack of the TRUTH kills you and even ignorance of your Jewish brothers kills you!
The servant is said to have had their dominion (Israel) and judgment (rule) taken away [53:8]. However, Jesus states in the NT that he has no rights to rule or judge [John 3:17, 8:15, etc].- You are wrong! Jesus had His divine power over DEATH- He resurrected His own body and bodies of dead people! He cast out demons. But He came NOT to judge you but to save you from His Coming Judgment. According to the Scripture He will judge you upon His Second Coming. Because He is the King you Jews all are waiting for. And you all will see His FACE and tremble because the Day of Judgment will be a terrible day for you and every Muslim.
Isaiah 53:10 states the suffering servant "shall see his seed", and the Hebrew word here is for "progeny", physically conceived children. The NT states Jesus was unmarried and had no physical children. ALSO: Given the Christian view that Jesus is G-d, is G-d His own servant? file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Admin/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif- According to the Scripture, we believers in God Jesus are adopted sons of God. Thus we are sons of Jesus and His seed.
"See what love The Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know Him. Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is." (1 John 3:1-2 R)
"For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, "Abba! Father!" it is The Spirit Himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him."
"I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God; for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God."
"We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience." (Romans 8:15-25)
Read it also:
But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!" Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of[ God through Christ. Galatians 4:-6
You said in the beginning: The "Jewish nation" in Hebrew Scripture is ALL of us, the Everyman of the human species. Those who interpret G-d's Word as "the Jewish nation was/is sinful" but we are not, we are better, engage in deliberate self-denial and unrighteousness
And I said: Brother, my Arab and Muslims brothers and friends will be surprised to read these words which you said. Thank you. I teach them too that my Arab nation is in fact Jewish nation. But they would glad to hear it from another Jew too.
Later you said: You misunderstand. Christians and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists and Wiccans and... are not Jews. They have their own faiths/beliefs. However, the story and events that befall the Jews/Hebrew/Israelites in Hebrew Scripture, the best and worst of human behavior are present in all human beings. It is this humanity we share--not Jewishness
My response was: I understood it of course. That's why I was surprised that you said that the Jewish nation in the Hebrew Scripture is ALL of us! The fact is we all who BELIEVE in God Jesus are considered by Him and Israel or the Church of God. In this case we ALL (Arabs and ex-Muslims) are Israel and the chosen people of God. The 'elect' who are saved from the coming Judgment of God. We are the ONE nation. The One people of God saved by Him to inhabit His new world created by Him for us.
Your response was: You continue to misunderstand. The story told within Hebrew Scripture is the human story. Hebrews are human. When you see the sins they commit and for which they are punished, these are human sins everyone (not just the Hebrews/Jews) possess. When you see how the Jews can repent of their sins and be forgiven, this is true for all people, regardless of their religious beliefs. Feel remorse, ask forgiveness, make reparations to any you've harmed, and you have atoned. This is the lesson of the Book of Jonah--the people of Ninevah (non-Jews) repented and G-d forgave them. Non-Jews are not Israel (the People Israel), but they are equally G-d's Children.
My response: Brother, my Arab brothers who are living in Israel are NOT Israel! And you are right. Try to explain it to Jews! Because even they call Arabs as Israeli Arabs. If Israel is a citizenship, as many of Israelis think, then all these Arabs are Israeli! If they have Israeli citizenship then they are part of Israel and Israel! Thus, according to your definition, Israel is a God's chosen people! That's why not all Arabs are Israel and Not ALL Jews are Israel. Because many Jews do NOT worship God and do not live as God says. They are just sinners and unbelievers. So, who is Israel? Those who are chosen by God for salvation! They're separated from other nations and idols. They are HOLY people of God. They are Arabs who committed their hearts to God of Israel and ex-Muslims and they are those who chose God to be their Savior. They are from all nations of the world and they are the chosen people of God who will inhabit the Kingdom of Heaven- a NEW WORLD prepared for them. Thus what is Israel? A citizenship? Yes. It is a citizenship of the Kingdom of God. And every one of you can be there THROUGH your FAITH in God Jesus.
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