I have tried very hard, searching the scriptures to prove your doctrines as truth. However, such scripture has eluded me.
This is a very simple request.
Can you provide me with 4 scriptures and 4 scriptures only?
One each for the first 4 points of reformed doctrine.
1) Total Depravity ~ Need a scripture that says plainly man lost the ability to choose as a result of the fall. (Plainly, no fancy logic interpretations)
2) Unconditional Election ~ Need a Scripture that plainly says God chooses from all men unconditionally a few to save. (Plainly, no fancy logic interpretations)
3) Limited Atonement ~ Need a scripture that plainly says Christ's Atonement on the cross only covers a few, not the whole world. ( Plainly, no fancy logic interpretations)
4) Irresistible Grace ~ Need a Scripture that plainly says no man can resist the Grace of God. (Plainly, no fancy logic interpretations)
*If you all cannot provide one plain straight forward scripture for each point, then it is quite plain you have gone beyond Scripture ....wouldn't you agree?
I have tried very hard, searching the scriptures to prove your doctrines as truth. However, such scripture has eluded me.
James replies:
I don't buy that for a second! You have tried very hard to IGNORE AND CONTRADICT Scripture shown to you.
You have taken positions that FORCE THE BIBLE TO CONTRADICT ITSELF, while ignoring interpretation that of unclear verses being interpreted BY the clear verses, thus making the Bible agree with itself.
Twosparrows continues:
This is a very simple request.
Can you provide me with 4 scriptures and 4 scriptures only?
One each for the first 4 points of reformed doctrine.
James replies:
For those of you who actually ARE wanting to know the truth, here is a link that will take you to SCRIPTURE LISTS, for each of the five points. That way you can examine the ENTIRE amount of evidence, and just see ALL of what the Bible says on each of the five points.
Just go to that link, pick on of the lists, and SEE what the Bible has to say about this.
1) Total Depravity ~ Need a scripture that says plainly man lost the ability to choose as a result of the fall. (Plainly, no fancy logic interpretations)
James replies:
(I will compromise with you Twosparrows, you want ONE and I will limit it to two or three, choosing from the Old and New Testament for each point.)
Total inability:
Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.
{Notice that Gen.5:3 says "in his own likeness, after his image". This image is Adam's post-fall, sin-tainted image. This post-fall image is a blurred image of God; not the same image that Adam was created with (2 Cor. 3:18). Thus, like Seth, the rest of us are born with this sin nature as a result of the fall of Adam.}
Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
2) Unconditional Election ~ Need a Scripture that plainly says God chooses from all men unconditionally a few to save. (Plainly, no fancy logic interpretations)
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
Ephesians 1:4-5 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, (5) having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
2Thes 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
3) Limited Atonement ~ Need a scripture that plainly says Christ's Atonement on the cross only covers a few, not the whole world. ( Plainly, no fancy logic interpretations)
Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
John 10:14-16 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. (15) "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. (16) "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
John 10:26-27 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. (27) "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
(Christ died for His sheep, NOT the goats.) {The goats (unbelievers) are still in their sins}
4) Irresistible Grace ~ Need a Scripture that plainly says no man can resist the Grace of God. (Plainly, no fancy logic interpretations)
Psalms 65:4 Blessed [is the man] You choose, And cause to approach [You, That] he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.
Ezekiel 36:26-27 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. (27) "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
*If you all cannot provide one plain straight forward scripture for each point, then it is quite plain you have gone beyond Scripture
....wouldn't you agree?
James replies:
It would depend on what TOPIC you are talking about.
For instance, to ask that the Doctrine of the Triune nature of God be proven with one verse of Scripture, is just childish.
The same goes for any view of eschatology (The end times).
IF.......twosparrows, you wish to learn the truth about something in Scripture then you would DEMAND to know ALL of what the Bible says about a given subject. You have a link in this post to several lists of Scriptures, past that link into your search bar, and go there and choose a list, and just read the Scriptures..........
"For instance, to ask that the Doctrine of the Triune nature of God be proven with one verse of Scripture, is just childish."
-------------------------
James,
I can post over 10 different passages of Scripture, each one standing alone with no other passages to support it which point to the Triune Nature of God. However I will post only "one" to prove my point. Others are available upon request.
I have choosen this one specifically for you; cause you of all people should of known of its existence : )
1Peter 1:2 ~ " who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ...."
James, it seems to me if you have to build a train of scriptures to prove your doctrine, you are on thin ice. A person can build a train of scriptures to say just about anything they want it to.
Yes, Scripture can be used to interpret Itself, however taken to far it can be used to create false doctrine. Although I am not accusing you of false doctrine, I do accuse you of training to many scriptures together to prove your doctrine.
All I am asking is for you to point to a place in the Bible and say here it is, this proves my Doctrine is Biblical.
I will address the scriptures you posted, but first I have some chores to do. At first glance only two maybe three scriptures hold any interest, the rest are clearly not applicable as they are interpreted in light of a doctrine. (Doctrine must be interpreted in light up scripture)
Can we agree that being "in Christ" comes with some responsibility toward those who are unsaved? Just because people are on here doesn't mean we assume they are truly saved and altho some (me) love reading your banter, I would hate it to be a stumbling block for someone seeking...
Please don't get me wrong, I love a good 'discussion' and am (too often) told that I am too 'intense' when it comes to the word of God, so four fingers are pointin' back at me :excited: BUT...PLAY NICE you two!
It seems you agree more than you both realize and I think the terminology is to blame (which has been mentioned before). Personally James, I think you need to get away from the world's terms, because as you present scripture, no one can disagree with that. It seems too often, we are willing to fight for a (world invented) denomination or group or whatever. I don't want to bring glory to Calvin...as a matter of fact, when I read the title of the thread I heard myself....like the chipmonks friend...yelll C- A- L -V- I- N :yay: sorry, but I did!
We need to bring glory to Christ.
Has not satan brought discord to the brethren by the slight changes in terminology? (thinking of the many "new" bibles that came about in the 70's! but that is another issue) He is subtle~from the beginning as you recall~and somethings don't change!
Thank you for all the scriptures. Thank you for your opinions. Thank you for the opportunity for each reader to take both those things and weigh them.
1) Total Depravity ~ (asking for a scripture that proves man lost the ability to choose as the result of the fall)
James, the Gen, and Jer. Scriptures....huh? Talk about a long shot....not even close! However Cor 2:14 did hold some promise, that is until you read it in context. ----- What are the Spiritual things that the natural man cannot accept or understand?----- verse 6 speaks of "wisdom" for the "mature", verse 7 speaks of "a mystery" and "hidden wisdom" verse 8; the "rulers of this age" didn't even understand, verse 10; "God revealed them" verse 12; "WE MIGHT KNOW THE THINGS FREELY GIVEN TO US BY GOD"
James this verse is speaking about how after we are born again "we have the mind of Christ" (verse 16). This verse says nothing about mans ability to choose or respond when God calls.
To explain :
A nice gal asks me to lunch, I don't have to know all her hidden mysteries to say "Yes I'll go". Then during lunch I find out more about her and it goes from there.
It is so simple, why do you insist on complexities?
*If you can't come up with better Scriptures for TOTAL depravity, this is a sinking ship.
James wrote - "Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen."
Are you saying the many who are called are those sinners that God created to live without ever having the benefit or offering of His Mercy?
On Limited Atonement -
For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. -1 Timothy 2:3-6
God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for all. Or does "all" not mean all in your Bible?
James wrote - "(Christ died for His sheep, NOT the goats.) {The goats (unbelievers) are still in their sins}"
Again, Christ Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for ALL. And hey, weren't we all "goats" at one time? Unbelievers still in our sin before accepting Christ? Jesus died for the goats. His sheep are those who are saved. His sacrifice was for the unsaved.
"James wrote - "Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen."
Are you saying the many who are called are those sinners that God created to live without ever having the benefit or offering of His Mercy?"
Come on, SavedIn, James didn't say that, the LORD Jesus Christ Himself said it! It's the Gospel.
On Limited Atonement - (one of man's terms again trying to make God fit man's logic)
For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. -1 Timothy 2:3-6
God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for all. Or does "all" not mean all in your Bible?
James wrote - "(Christ died for His sheep, NOT the goats.) {The goats (unbelievers) are still in their sins}"
~The Sacrifice Christ made on the cross is ALL sufficient. But not all will be saved. The verse clearly states that the Lord desires for all to be saved~and even one drop of his blood would be suffiecient, I believe, but scripture is very clear not only that many would go to hell (originally made for satan and his angels) Read about the pharoh~he is in hell, and like it or not, he was made for a purpose according to the Word. That is where we keep thinking we know what God is thinking! We are not God, our ways/thoughts not like His.
Why is it so hard to accept the things we don't "get" because we wouldn't do it that way? Why do we want to put God on our level?
(And WHY isn't there an imoticon for FRUSTRATION?)
First, I asked that question of James in order to understand his belief in the verse he posted rather than assume to understand it. Secondly, if James uses that verse to support his belief, why would God "call" [many are called] those who He has already created/destined for hell? Since those people are not going to be shown Grace or Mercy and are exempt from the love of God, why "call" them? For what reason?
shepherdess wrote - "The Sacrifice Christ made on the cross is ALL sufficient. But not all will be saved. The verse clearly states that the Lord desires for all to be saved~and even one drop of his blood would be suffiecient, I believe, but scripture is very clear not only that many would go to hell (originally made for satan and his angels) Read about the pharoh~he is in hell, and like it or not, he was made for a purpose according to the Word. That is where we keep thinking we know what God is thinking! We are not God, our ways/thoughts not like His."
I'm fully aware that there will be many that go to hell. And you and James believe they were all created just for that. They don't get the Mercy, Grace and love of God that your believed 'elect' get. Christ' blood doesn't cover them; never did, never will. You change the nature of God with your belief. God is love. But your belief withholds God's love from the world or those who will never receive salvation. How can you share the love of God or Christ with people when your beliefs don't include His love toward all created beings? How can you tell a sinner that Christ died for them, without really knowing whether or not that person is actually an 'elect' person Christ died for? And if they are not 'elect', then you just boldfaced lied to them by saying God loves them and sent His Son to die for them. But then maybe you don't even share the Lord with people. It would be difficult knowing who is who and which person Christ died for and which is not.
