Author	Thread: Did Christ die for ALL...or did He just died for Y'all (the Elect)...?
Admin	Did Christ die for ALL...or did He just died for Y'all (the Elect)...? Posted : 14 Feb, 2011 08:37 PM Do We Really Have A Gospel For All Men? Article by Pastor George Zeller Paul taught that the good news of the gospel includes the fact that �Christ died for our sins� (1 Cor. 15:1-4). Can we honestly share this good news with all men everywhere? Most Reformed men believe that Christ died as a Substitute and paid sin�s penalty only for the elect, that is, only for those who will eventually be saved. The Bible uses all kinds of universal terms to make it clear that the Saviour died for the sins of Adam�s entire race (Isa. 53:6; John 3:16; 6:51; 1 Tim. 2:6; Heb. 2:9; 1 John 2:2; 2 Peter 2:1; etc.). See For Whom Did Christ Die? How can we sincerely offer to men what has not been provided for them? How can we offer them a free gift if the gift has not been purchased for them? How can we urge them to drink from the fountain of life if no water has been provided for them? How can we tell them to be saved if Christ provided not for their salvation? How can we say to a person, "Take the medicine and be cured!" if there is no medicine to take and no cure provided? Reformed men, if they are honest, have a very uncertain gospel: �Perhaps Christ died for you.� �Maybe God so loved you.� �Christ shed His blood for you, perhaps.� �Salvation has been provided for you, maybe.� �Possibly God commendeth His love toward you.� �Hopefully He�s the propitiation for your sins.� �There is a possibility that Christ died as your Substitute.� �I bring you good news, maybe.� It would be like saying, �I know you have a problem, but I�m not sure there is a solution to your problem. I know you have a terrible disease, but I am not sure there is a remedy for you. Your case may be hopeless. We just don�t know whether there is a Saviour for you or not.� How thankful we can be that there is indeed a �Saviour of all men� (1 Tim. 4:10)! Do We Need to be Saved Before We Can Believe? We all recognize that salvation is a supernatural work of God, and that no one can be saved apart from divine enlightenment (Matt. 16:17; Acts 16:14) and apart from the Spirit�s inner conviction (John 16:7-11). God the Holy Spirit convicts and convinces the world of the sin of unbelief (John 16:9). Those in darkness are commanded and are responsible to receive the Lord Jesus Christ, the Light of the world. At the point of regeneration a child of wrath becomes a child of God and is a possessor of the very life and light of God. At the very moment he believes on the Lord Jesus Christ he is regenerated and saved eternally (John 1:12; Gal. 3:26; Acts 16:30-31). Reformed men teach that regeneration precedes faith. The Bible teaches that a man must believe in order to live (John 20:31; John 6:47); they teach that a man must live in order to believe. Charles Spurgeon recognized the folly of saying that the sinner must be regenerated before he can believe: "If I am to preach the faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. Am I only to preach faith to those who have it? Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners." [From Spurgeon�s sermon entitled "The Warrant of Faith."] Post Reply
View Profile History	Did Christ die for ALL...or did He just died for Y'all (the Elect)...? Posted : 14 Feb, 2011 08:43 PM Those chosen by the Father and given to the Son had to be redeemed if they were to be saved. In order to SECURE their redemption, Jesus Christ came into the world and tool upon himself human nature so that He might identify Himself with His people and act as their legal representative or substitute. Christ, acting on behalf of his people, perfectly kept God's law and thereby worked out a perfect righteousness which is IMPUTED TO THEM THE MOMENT THEY ARE BROUGHT TO FAITH IN HIM. Through what He did, they are constituted righteous before God. They are also freed from all guilt and condemnation as the result of what Christ suffered for them. All Calvinists agree that Christ's obedience and suffering were of infinite value, and that if God had so willed, the satisfaction rendered by Christ would have saved every member of the human race. But he came into this world to represent and save only those given to Him by the Father. The Arminians also place a limitation on the atoning work of Christ. but one of a much different nature. They hold that Christ's saving work was designed to make possible the salvation of all men on the condition that they believe, but that Christ's death IN ITSELF did not actually secure of guarantee salvation for anyone. Since all men will not be saved, a limitation must be admitted. Calvinists say the Christ's death was all powerful but it was limited to the elect, and Arminians say it was intended for everyone, but it only made it POSSIBLE for God to pardon sinners, on the condition that they believe. For the Calvinist, the atonement "is like a narrow bridge that goes all the way across the stream; for the Arminian it is like a great wide bridge that goes only half-way across." I heard a preacher once say "God casts a vote for you, the Devil casts a vote against you, and you cast the deciding vote!" As a Calvinist I would say something like, "This is God's universe, He is merciful and loving, repent and trust in Jesus, and the Devil is on a short leash and has no say in your salvation!" A. The Scriptures describe the end intended and accomplished by Christ's work as the full salvation of His people. 1. The Scriptures state that Christ came, not to enable men to save themselves but to SAVE sinners. Matthew 1:21: "...She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will SAVE HIS PEOPLE from their sins. ' Luke 19:10: "For the Son of man came to seek and to SAVE that which is lost." Galations 1:3,4: Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, WHO GAVE HIMSELF for our sins TO DELIVER US from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father. 1 timothy 1:15: The saying is sure and worthy of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to SAVE SINNERS and I am the foremost of sinners. Titus 2:14:...who GAVE HIMSELF for us to REDEEM US from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds. 1 Peter 3:18: For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, THAT HE MIGHT BRING US TO GOD, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. see also: 2 Cor. 5:21 2. The Scriptures declare that, as the result of what Christ did and suffered, His people are reconciled to God, justified, and given the Holy Spirit who regenerates and sanctifies them. All these blessing were SECURED by Christ Himself for His people. A. Christ, by His redeeming work, SECURED RECONCILIATION for His people. Romans 5:10: For if while we were enemies we were RECONCILED TO GOD BY THE DEATH OF HIS SON, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. Ephesians 2:15,16: ...by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself on e new man in place of the two, so making peace, and MIGHT RECONCILE US both to God in one body through the cross, thereby bringing the hostility to an end. Colossians 1:21,22: And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, HE HAS NOW RECONCILED in his body of flesh by his death, IN ORDER TO present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him. see also:2 Cor. 5:18,19 B. Christ secured the righteousness and pardon needed by His people for their JUSTIFICATION. Romans 3:24,25:...they are JUSTIFIED by his grace as a gift, THROUGH THE REDEMPTION WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. Romans 5:8,9: But God shows his love for us in that WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS CHRIST DIED FOR US. Since, therefore, we are now JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. Hebrews 9:12:...he entered once and for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but HIS OWN BLOOD, THUS SECURING AN ETERNAL REDEMPTION. 1 Peter 2:24: He himself BORE OUR SINS in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. BY HIS WOUNDS YOU HAVE BEEN HEALED. see also: 1 Cor. 1:30; Colossians 1:13,14 C. Christ secured the gift of the Spirit which includes REGENERATION and SANCTIFICATION and all that is involved in them. Ephesians 1:3,4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ WITH EVERY SPIRITUAL BLESSING in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. Titus 3:5,6:....he saved us, not because of of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of REGENERATION and RENEWAL in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly THROUGH Jesus Christ our Savior. Hebrews 13:12: So Jesus also suffered outside the gate IN ORDER TO SANCTIFY the people through his own blood. see also: 1 John 1:7; Heb. 9:14; 1 Cor. 1:30; Acts 5:31 Philippians 1:29; Ephesians 5:25,26 B. Passages which represent the Lord Jesus Christ, in all that he did and suffered for His people, as fulfilling the terms of a gracious compact or arrangement which He had entered into with His heavenly Father before the foundation of the world. John 6:35-40: Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVES ME WILL COME TO ME; and him who comes to me I will not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT ME; and this is the will of him who sent me, THAT I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING OF ALL THAT HE HAS GIVEN ME, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." 2. Jesus, the good shepherd, lays down his life for his sheep. All who are "His sheep" are brought by Him into the fold and are made to hear His voice and follow Him. Notice that the Father had given the sheep to Christ! John 10: 11,14-18: I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for THE SHEEP...I am the good shepherd; I KNOW MY OWN and my own know me, as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for THE SHEEP. And I have OTHER SHEEP, that are not of this fold; I MUST BRING THEM ALSO, and they WILL heed my voice.......THIS CHARGE I HAVE RECEIVED FROM MY FATHER." John 10: 24-29: [the unbelieving Jews demanded of Him] "If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Fathers name, they bear witness to me; but you do not believe, BECAUSE YOU DO NOT BELONG TO MY SHEEP. MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, AND I KNOW THEM AND THEY FOLLOW ME;AND I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE, AND THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH, AND NO ONE IS ABLE TO SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY HAND. MY FATHER, WHO HAS GIVEN THEM TO ME, IS GREATER THAN ALL, AND NO ONE IS ABLE TO SNATCH THEM OUT OF THE FATHER'S HAND. See also: John 17: 1-11, 20, 24-26 Those who say you can lose your salvation are contradicting what the Bible says. If you are trusting in Christ,you are secure and can KNOW that you are his,and NOTHING can snatch you from God's hand. Sincerely, James Post Reply
View Profile History	Did Christ die for ALL...or did He just died for Y'all (the Elect)...? Posted : 14 Feb, 2011 09:03 PM Paul taught that the good news of the gospel includes the fact that �Christ died for our sins� (1 Cor. 15:1-4). James replies: Yes, "OUR sins" meaning Christians. Paul's letter was to the CHRISTIANS in Corinth, not the whole world. Can we honestly share this good news with all men everywhere? James replies: we are commanded to do so! Most Reformed men believe that Christ died as a Substitute and paid sin�s penalty only for the elect, that is, only for those who will eventually be saved. The Bible uses all kinds of universal terms to make it clear that the Saviour died for the sins of Adam�s entire race (Isa. 53:6; John 3:16; 6:51; 1 Tim. 2:6; Heb. 2:9; 1 John 2:2; 2 Peter 2:1; etc.). James replies: The word "all" hardly ever means "everyone who ever lived". We already discussed John 3:16, but the "all" in the above verses means, "all of God's chosen people". See For Whom Did Christ Die? James replies: Matthew 1:21: "...She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will SAVE HIS PEOPLE from their sins. ' How can we sincerely offer to men what has not been provided for them? James replies: Because you don't know who will accept Jesus and who won't. How can we offer them a free gift if the gift has not been purchased for them? How can we urge them to drink from the fountain of life if no water has been provided for them? How can we tell them to be saved if Christ provided not for their salvation? James replies: BECAUSE you don't know whom God will save! We are to preach the gospel to every creature. How can we say to a person, "Take the medicine and be cured!" if there is no medicine to take and no cure provided? James replies: This is sentimental whining. Reformed men, if they are honest, have a very uncertain gospel: �Perhaps Christ died for you.� �Maybe God so loved you.� �Christ shed His blood for you, perhaps.� �Salvation has been provided for you, maybe.� �Possibly God commendeth His love toward you.� �Hopefully He�s the propitiation for your sins.� �There is a possibility that Christ died as your Substitute.� James replies: This is just an Arminian whining! NONE of the above Statements are what God has TOLD us to say to the world!!! We are to tell people to repent and trust in Jesus! �I bring you good news, maybe.� It would be like saying, �I know you have a problem, but I�m not sure there is a solution to your problem. I know you have a terrible disease, but I am not sure there is a remedy for you. Your case may be hopeless. We just don�t know whether there is a Saviour for you or not.� How thankful we can be that there is indeed a �Saviour of all men� (1 Tim. 4:10)! James replies: By ignoring Scripture, you have turned God into Santa Clause. Do We Need to be Saved Before We Can Believe? We all recognize that salvation is a supernatural work of God, and that no one can be saved apart from divine enlightenment (Matt. 16:17; Acts 16:14) and apart from the Spirit�s inner conviction (John 16:7-11). God the Holy Spirit convicts and convinces the world of the sin of unbelief (John 16:9). Those in darkness are commanded and are responsible to receive the Lord Jesus Christ, the Light of the world. At the point of regeneration a child of wrath becomes a child of God and is a possessor of the very life and light of God. At the very moment he believes on the Lord Jesus Christ he is regenerated and saved eternally (John 1:12; Gal. 3:26; Acts 16:30-31). Reformed men teach that regeneration precedes faith. The Bible teaches that a man must believe in order to live (John 20:31; John 6:47); they teach that a man must live in order to believe. Charles Spurgeon recognized the folly of saying that the sinner must be regenerated before he can believe: "If I am to preach the faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. Am I only to preach faith to those who have it? Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners." [From Spurgeon�s sermon entitled "The Warrant of Faith."] James replies: 1. This is dishonest to use this quote by Spurgeon, because Spurgeon was talking about the FACT that he spent so much time preaching the gospel to non-Christians! Spurgeon was a calvinist, and said so many times! 2. WHAT....pray tell, do I do with ALL the verses I just posted that SAY that Jesus died for a special GROUP of people that the Father had given him?????? Arminians, misinterpret a handful of verses, and IGNORE the OVER ONE HUNDRED VERSES that we keep showing them!!! So, NOW YOU TELL ME, what do I DO with all the verses I just posted on this thread?????? Go through each one and tell me how to interpret them to fit into the hyper-sentimental Arminian belief that "Jesus died for everyone who ever lived". In Christ, James Post Reply
View Profile History	Did Christ die for ALL...or did He just died for Y'all (the Elect)...? Posted : 14 Feb, 2011 09:21 PM Is there any room left for my humble answer? My Bible says Jesus died for the sins of the "whole world", "every man", the sin issue is settled. "but whoever has not believed stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son" The sins of the world have been forgiven, men have been given a choice to be under Law or Grace. Post Reply
View Profile History	Did Christ die for ALL...or did He just died for Y'all (the Elect)...? Posted : 15 Feb, 2011 04:37 AM James shared: "WHAT....pray tell, do I do with ALL the verses I just posted that SAY that Jesus died for a special GROUP of people that the Father had given him?????? Arminians, misinterpret a handful of verses, and IGNORE the OVER ONE HUNDRED VERSES that we keep showing them!!! So, NOW YOU TELL ME, what do I DO with all the verses I just posted on this thread??????" -------------------------- James when all this first started I told you Scripture whipping others will get you nowhere. I also told you I will address any Scripture you want ONE AT A TIME. My internet access is via a smart phone and even if it wasn't, stop and consider how long it would take me to go through a hundred twisted verses! My brother, you have been deaf to all this. I have told you this is cultish behavior and you are single handedly making Calvinism look like a cult with your refusal to hear and discuss. You just copy and past long scripture lists, sermons and articles from Calvinist websites. I think the day you begin to speak with understanding in your own words you will begin to see you are a extremist and do not interpret Scripture fairly. Btw, offer is still open to discuss "your scriptures" one at a time. Post Reply
View Profile History	Did Christ die for ALL...or did He just died for Y'all (the Elect)...? Posted : 15 Feb, 2011 06:01 AM Is Arminian a nickname like Calvinist is? To answer the question---- Yes, Christ died for ALL. Post Reply
View Profile History	Did Christ die for ALL...or did He just died for Y'all (the Elect)...? Posted : 15 Feb, 2011 06:07 AM Which of the men you follow,james, came up with the phrase 'turned God into santa claus'? You've said that more than once. What you've done here is turn God into a respecter of persons--And THAT He's not! Post Reply
View Profile History	Did Christ die for ALL...or did He just died for Y'all (the Elect)...? Posted : 15 Feb, 2011 09:11 AM One or two verses is good enough to support your arguement. but two entire mammoth post is a bit to far.Who really will read all that much. One question----> Since no man knows the truth could Calvin have made some errors James?????????? Post Reply
View Profile History	Did Christ die for ALL...or did He just died for Y'all (the Elect)...? Posted : 15 Feb, 2011 01:23 PM Who then can be saved?... if there are those who are already elected before they were born to be saved. Sounds like an ujust selfish God, and the death of Jesus was unecessary suffering, if He died for those who were already elected and chosen, and called, and justified... James I think the God you speak about needs some serious meds, in a lock unit would also help.. and maybe you should join your God for a couple days to get things cleared up, so the lost sinner will know not to repent of their sins, coz, the sinner ain't the elect or the chosen or the called, so repentance is a waste of time. Only the elect will be saved..:ROFL::excited: How does a person know they are the elect, or the claled, or the chosen, by what you are spreading. In otherwords, there is no hope for the sinner? To be honset, you really have your scripture mixed up, and there is no way the Ho;y Spirit is revealling this stuff to you, becasue it totally disagrees with what God speaks in His word. Plus, it is also a known that Calvin was confused in his writings, trying to figure out God himself for himself. although he did leave us with some nice writings, but many of the things that are attributed to him, he didn;t not wirite, and men have taken his writings to means what they thought INTERPRETED his work and given thier own views as to what Calvin was saying. Moreover, this is what happens when men INTERPRET God's word, is cause s schisms, and wrong understanding, and false doctrines, but when the Holy Spiirt REVEALS God's word, everyone is in one according and in agreement with God's truth, becasue God cannot stand aginst Himself, nor will the Holy Spirit speak those things God has not said. And were you a sinner BEFORE you knew you were an elect, or chosen, or a called, or a chosen? And how did you know you were and elect? I pray you will answer my questions. Thanks... ella Post Reply
View Profile History	Did Christ die for ALL...or did He just died for Y'all (the Elect)...? Posted : 15 Feb, 2011 05:57 PM Additional reasons that the atonement of Christ is not for all the sins of all people 1. God punishes people in hell, which would be unjust if their sins were atoned for 2. Mark 9:43-44 If one were to say, �their sins are atoned for, but that atonement is not applied because of unbelief,� he fails to realize that unbelief is likewise a sin 3. Heb 3:12 [�The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for either: 1) All the sins of all men; 2) All the sins of some men; or 3) Some of the sins of all men. In which case it may be said: 1) If the last be true all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved; 2) That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth; 3) But if the first is the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins? You answer, Because of unbelief. I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!� � John Owen, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ] 4.God bears eternal wrath against people, which by definition means that his wrath against them has not been propitiated [appeased] 1The 2:16; 2The 1:6-9 Post Reply
View Profile History	Did Christ die for ALL...or did He just died for Y'all (the Elect)...? Posted : 15 Feb, 2011 06:04 PM Question for those who say Jesus died for everyone who ever lived. And I humbly apologize for yet again posting a scripture verse that contradicts Arminians, but Eph.5:25 says that Jesus did NOT die for everyone, but "gave Himself for the church". Here is my question: Eph 5:25 [we are commanded to love our wives in the same way that Christ loved the church and gave himself for it; therefore, if Christ loved and gave himself for all people in the same way, we are commanded to love all women in the same way that we love our wives];???? In Christ, James Post Reply

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