EPH 2:1 ~ As for you, you were dead In your transgressions and sins,
MATT 8:22 ~ But Jesus told them "Follow me and let the dead bury their own dead"
JOHN 7:39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
With the utmost respect, the reason I started this thread is the confusion you brought to the other thread by continually disagreeing yet when I read what you have to say, we are in agreement....???
Excuse me Two I realize, I am not Presby or James, but I just that Ella may have been confused according to her responses to the a fore mentioned post.
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What does it mean to be "dead in sin"?
Posted : 7 Feb, 2011 06:14 PM
Presby
In previous threads over the past couple days, there has been a huge problem become evident which has yet to been dealt with in the Calvinist vs. Arminian debate. The problem is this: Both sides have presented Scriptures supporting their arguments. It's like you've got one side saying, "These are the Calvinistic verses!" and the other, "These are the Arminian verses!" because Scripture is both of our authorities. However, Scripture cannot contradict itself, thus one of these views has wrongly interpreted some Scripture passages. Scriptures must be in agreement, thus if an interpretation can be shown to go against a *clear* teaching of Scripture, then the interpretation *must* be wrong. That said, I want to look at one particular point and that is total depravity and its implications.
This thread is meant to answer the question "Are we dead in sin?" And if the answer is yes, "Does this mean we are totally depraved or have total spiritual inability?" These questions, and these ONLY are to be discussed. Please limit your arguments to these parameters.
Presby
That's fine, Two. Perhaps this discussion needs to begin even further back. This discussion is meant to be only for those who have Scripture as their ultimate authority. Having Scripture as and authority means believing that it is completely true and thus perfect. Truth cannot be contradicting. Correct?
The Reformed are the ONLY Christian group that pays serious attention to The Fall.
God said to Adam "The day you eat of it, you will surely DIE."
That is Genesis 2:17.
Now, if you just keep reading you will find that Adam and Eve DID eat of the fruit, and they did NOT die physically for hundreds of years, so HOW did they "die"?
They died SPIRITUALLY THAT DAY, just like God said.
That day, mankind lost the ability of freewill and were instantly dead in sin with a will enslaved to sin.
The New Testament confirms this:
"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins"
- Ephesians 2:1
"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)"
- Ephesians 2:5
"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses"
- Colossians 2:13
What does "dead in sin" mean?
Notice that in all three of the above Biblical references to the phrase "dead in sin" that the solution to spiritual death is God's quickening (or regeneration). This means the concept refers to man's natural state in original sin, apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. To be unspiritual, dead in sin or "of the flesh", then, refers to man's natural fallen condition of bondage to corruption prior to the intervention of the Holy Spirit.
In 1 Corinthinans 2, it teaches us that persons in this state cannot understand spiritual truths when spoken to them, until the Spirit renews them and gives them understanding.
A person without the Holy Spirit is dead to spiritual things and is not able to accept the gospel.
Notice what Paul says here:
"But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God... these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For ...no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, THAT WE MIGHT UNDERSTAND the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The NATURAL PERSON does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is NOT ABLE to understand them because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED." (1 Cor 2:7; 10-14) (emphasis mine)
So, to be "dead in sin" means being a natural FALLEN person, without the Holy Spirit, and NOT ABLE to respond to the gospel.
In Christ,
James
2sparrow... uh... cut to the chase and answer the question!
Nice post James with scripture references... dead IN sin simple means living our lives without Christ in darkness and doing our own thing satisfying the flesh.... BUT, dead TO sin, has a different meaning...it means that now that we are born again, sin no longer has dominion over us, because we have turned our backs on sin and died to sin in our body, and are therefore DEAD TO SIN, AND ALIVE IN CHRIST!... as Paul says, in Romans chapter 6Knowing this, that your old man (sin nature) is crucified with Christ, so that body of sin might be destroyed, therefore, we should not serve sin. Because the person who is dead is freeed from sin. Now if we are dead with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him. Knowing that Christ was rasied from the dead died no more and death ahs no more dominion over Him. For when He died, He died TO sin once, but being that he lives, He llives to God Likewise, consider yourself also to be DEAD TO SIN, but ALIVE to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Ephesians chapter 1 tells us that: Even when we were DEAD IN SINS, God has quicken (made alive) us together with Christ by grace you are saved.
Good question, ooops! sorry I forgot your name
ella
Ella
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What does it mean to be "dead in sin"?
Posted : 7 Feb, 2011 09:57 PM
2sparrow, you're out to lunch... c'mon now, connect the dots...
Rommans chapter 6 says it like this, What shall we say then? Shall we continue to sin so that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall WE who DIED TO SIN live ANY LONGER IN SIN?...
So what does all of this mean, you ask? Well if you are a born again Cgristian, your sins have been forgiven, and covered with the blood of Jesus Christ by GRACE therefore, because of GRACE we who are CHRISTIAN are covered by grace, but not so that we continue to sin, but because now we are no longer condemned becasue we sin. However, as a born Christian from above on the inside, we have become a NEW CREATION in Christ, and therefore we are now aware of those things God calls sin, and we should then wlak accordingly to the NEW CREATION we have become and live our lives accordingly. When we become born again, the old sinful person we once were should have beeN crucified (DIED), AND as Paul says, we are SUPPOSE to be walking in the newness of life serving God thorugh Christ, no longer under the control of sin, and you have the power of the Holy Spirit living on the inside to help you and prevent you from sinning. That is of course, if you are truly born again in the inner man. Otherwise, if you're still sinning and are SUPPOSE TO BE BORN AGAIN, then you have not been SET FREE FROM SIN.
Ella
BTW, 2sparrow, REGENARATION mean to be born again or to be restored, or to be quickened which means made alive. A person cannot be tested by the Holy Spirit, when a person repents of their sisn and receive Jesus cHrist as their lLord and Savior, the Holy Spirit of God and, Jesus, immediately come and make their how inside of that person according to John chapter14- 15, this is the promise Jesus gave to us that they will come and live on the inside of us. The Holy Spirit seals us which is our garuntee of salvation and protection to help keep us from sinning and live a Christ-like life until Jesus comes.
Regenration is the cleaning us up on the inside by the Holy Spirit, which give us our spiritual change in our hearts and changes us from our sinful nature (old man), in our minds and everything, plus brings us into a knowledge of Christ releasing us from our sins and turning us ot God.
I think you should read Romans chapter 6, some good stuff in it and will help you better understand how it is that we are changed from the old sinful nature that was once dead IN sins, but are changed to the new nature in Christ ALIVE IN CHRIST, dead TO sin no longer interested..can't be influenced by sin..
Ella I could have posted all of your responses,,
Please note this post is to Presby and
James.
Your are totally out of order and answered and interfered, with what /Two has so graciously trying to get these two people to substantiate their Calvanistic doctrine, and they will not do it, they wish to embalm others with their unbelief, Calvinism is not in any point in agreement with scripture, no more than your responses are.
You, James, Presby have the right to choose what you believe, but that does not make it scriptural or spiritual. nor is any of it in light of scripture.
Total Inability, and total depravity are not found in scripture at any time or place, they are the terms of men to substantiate the false teachings.
EPH 2:1 ~ As for you, you were dead In your transgressions and sins,
James replies:
Since you cut off the first part of the verse, I need to show the WHOLE verse:
"and you HE MADE ALIVE, who were dead in trespasses and sins."
If you read Ephesians 2:1-10 you will see that Paul is saying that we are saved by GRACE through faith.
we Christians were once ENTIRELY SPIRITUALLY DEAD, and God made us alive, and this is TOTALLY by His mercy.
Ephesians 2:8,9 even says that faith itself is a gift from God so that no one can boast.
Remember me asking the Questions, why are you are a Christian? The REASON no one can say, "well I am a Christian because I chose Jesus" is BECAUSE faith itself is a gift from God.
SO this first verse that twosparrows chose is just Paul telling us that we are totally spiritually DEAD in sin, and UNABLE to come to God on our own.
MATT 8:22 ~ But Jesus told them "Follow me and let the dead bury their own dead"
James replies:
This has nothing to do with the first verse whatsoever.
Jesus was showing his would be disciple that he demanded a radical commitment to follow Him. In no way, could this be construed as having anything to do with the first verse.
JOHN 7:39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
James replies:
This verse also has NOTHING to do with either of the verses given above! Jesus is talking about the blessing of Pentecost.
You know, twosparrows I gave THREE verses that had the term "dead in sin" and you said nothing about them.
James there is absolutely no problem with scripture, it is your rendering of scripture that is in Gross error, and Two responded to you several times but you refused to answer simple questions.
Scripture without any question, clearly illustrates, spiritually dead man's ability to scripture.
Your faith is in the doctrine of man, not scripture.
My recommendation is that you find a forum for Calvinist, and allow the bible to be taught here.
1) the literal and figurative use of the word "dead" compared to the word "dead" in the first verse.
2) It shows there was alive people before the cross which ties to the first and third verses
The third verse ties to the second, it shows the Holy Spirit had not been given before the cross, so how could Jesus imply the one who followed him before the cross was Not dead?
1st verse Eph ~ some say dead means literally spiritually dead...right? 2nd verse Matt ~ Jesus says : let the spiritually dead bury the physical dead.... right?
Implying that the one who follows him is spiritually alive...right?
So how does one become spiritually alive?.....regeneration by the Holy Spirit...right?
Opps, something doesn't fit because of the third verse in John
3rd verse John ~ The Holy Spirit had not been given until after Jesus was glorified.
*The only way to reconcile these three verses is to say spiritually dead is a figurative term, not a literal term.
