In previous threads over the past couple days, there has been a huge problem become evident which has yet to been dealt with in the Calvinist vs. Arminian debate. The problem is this: Both sides have presented Scriptures supporting their arguments. It's like you've got one side saying, "These are the Calvinistic verses!" and the other, "These are the Arminian verses!" because Scripture is both of our authorities. However, Scripture cannot contradict itself, thus one of these views has wrongly interpreted some Scripture passages. Scriptures must be in agreement, thus if an interpretation can be shown to go against a *clear* teaching of Scripture, then the interpretation *must* be wrong. That said, I want to look at one particular point and that is total depravity and its implications.
This thread is meant to answer the question "Are we dead in sin?" And if the answer is yes, "Does this mean we are totally depraved or have total spiritual inability?" These questions, and these ONLY are to be discussed. Please limit your arguments to these parameters.
Ephesians 2 talks about being "dead in trespasses and sins" (v1) and how we were "dead in sins" (v5). As many of you well know, this is a proof text for Calvinism, if it can be shown that "dead in sins" does not equal "total depravity/total inability" then the Calvinism would be, at best, very badly injured.
So...Are we dead in sins? And please explain what that means.
"Scripture is both of our authorities. However, Scripture cannot contradict itself, thus one of these views has wrongly interpreted some Scripture passages. Scriptures must be in agreement, thus if an interpretation can be shown to go against a *clear* teaching of Scripture, then the interpretation *must* be wrong."
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I disagree, ever heard of the parable of the 'Three Blind Men and the Elephant' ???
However, since you set parameters, I will respect them.
That's fine, Two. Perhaps this discussion needs to begin even further back. This discussion is meant to be only for those who have Scripture as their ultimate authority. Having Scripture as and authority means believing that it is completely true and thus perfect. Truth cannot be contradicting. Correct?
The Reformed are the ONLY Christian group that pays serious attention to The Fall.
God said to Adam "The day you eat of it, you will surely DIE."
That is Genesis 2:17.
Now, if you just keep reading you will find that Adam and Eve DID eat of the fruit, and they did NOT die physically for hundreds of years, so HOW did they "die"?
They died SPIRITUALLY THAT DAY, just like God said.
That day, mankind lost the ability of freewill and were instantly dead in sin with a will enslaved to sin.
The New Testament confirms this:
"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins"
- Ephesians 2:1
"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)"
- Ephesians 2:5
"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses"
- Colossians 2:13
What does "dead in sin" mean?
Notice that in all three of the above Biblical references to the phrase "dead in sin" that the solution to spiritual death is God's quickening (or regeneration). This means the concept refers to man's natural state in original sin, apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. To be unspiritual, dead in sin or "of the flesh", then, refers to man's natural fallen condition of bondage to corruption prior to the intervention of the Holy Spirit.
In 1 Corinthinans 2, it teaches us that persons in this state cannot understand spiritual truths when spoken to them, until the Spirit renews them and gives them understanding.
A person without the Holy Spirit is dead to spiritual things and is not able to accept the gospel.
Notice what Paul says here:
"But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God... these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For ...no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, THAT WE MIGHT UNDERSTAND the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The NATURAL PERSON does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is NOT ABLE to understand them because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED." (1 Cor 2:7; 10-14) (emphasis mine)
So, to be "dead in sin" means being a natural FALLEN person, without the Holy Spirit, and NOT ABLE to respond to the gospel.
Since you have set some parameters, I would like to set some ground rules also. I will be fair to you by Not intentionally taking your posts out of context, by Not intentionally taking Scripture out of context, by only posting enough information so it doesn't take a week to sort through it all and will hope you return the favor.
2sparrow... uh... cut to the chase and answer the question!:excited::yay:
Nice post James with scripture references... dead IN sin simple means living our lives without Christ in darkness and doing our own thing satisfying the flesh.... BUT, dead TO sin, has a different meaning...it means that now that we are born again, sin no longer has dominion over us, because we have turned our backs on sin and died to sin in our body, and are therefore DEAD TO SIN, AND ALIVE IN CHRIST!... as Paul says, in Romans chapter 6Knowing this, that your old man (sin nature) is crucified with Christ, so that body of sin might be destroyed, therefore, we should not serve sin. Because the person who is dead is freeed from sin. Now if we are dead with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him. Knowing that Christ was rasied from the dead died no more and death ahs no more dominion over Him. For when He died, He died TO sin once, but being that he lives, He llives to God Likewise, consider yourself also to be DEAD TO SIN, but ALIVE to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Ephesians chapter 1 tells us that: Even when we were DEAD IN SINS, God has quicken (made alive) us together with Christ by grace you are saved.
Good question, ooops! sorry I forgot your name:yay:
Although I agree technically with your post to a certain degree, it is rather misleading.
The Word of God and or the Holy Spirit awaken something in the spirit of fallen man. This is not regeneration or "born again". This is a tasting of the Holy Spirit which the spirit of the man chooses to accept or reject.
You cut to the chase, and if you are Reformed you just created a problem for yourself, you say:
Dead in sin = unable to respond to God
Dead to sin = unable to sin
Do you see the problem with that?....The problem is you still sin even though you are "Dead to sin". Therefore being "Dead in sin" does Not necessarily mean unable to respond to God.
Although I agree technically with your post to a certain degree, it is rather misleading.
The Word of God and or the Holy Spirit awaken something in the spirit of fallen man. This is not regeneration or "born again". This is a tasting of the Holy Spirit which the spirit of the man chooses to accept or reject.
James replies:
"The spirit of the man chooses to accept or reject"?
I just showed you a portion of Scripture where Paul says that natural man IS NOT ABLE to understand the things of God, and that they are "folly" to him.
Please show me where fallen man gets a "tasting on the Holy Spirit which the man chooses to accept or reject".
Read this scripture and again, and notice there is a NATURAL person who is NOT ABLE to understand the things of God, and the Christian who has revelation THROUGH the HOLY SPIRIT.
Twosparrows, the Scripture says, DEAD and ALIVE, and nothing in between.
"But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God... these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For ...no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, THAT WE MIGHT UNDERSTAND the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The NATURAL PERSON does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is NOT ABLE to understand them because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED." (1 Cor 2:7; 10-14) (emphasis mine)
