Thread: The Writings (Letters and Books) of The Early Church Fathers
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The Writings (Letters and Books) of The Early Church Fathers
Posted : 27 Nov, 2010 08:23 PM
We have access to many of the Letters and Books written by The Fathers of The Church. These were men that heard The Gospel straight from The Apostles or from those Taught by The Apostles.
Nowhere do you read anyone questioning what they wrote...certainly not The Church.
Here are some excerpts. I believe that you will find them interesting concerning Scripture Only.
Papias. 115 - 140 A.D.
If, then, any one came, who had been a follower of the elders, I questioned him in regard to the words of the elders, what Andrew said or what Peter said, or what was said by Philip, or by Thomas, or by James, or by John, or by Matthew, or by any other of the disciples of the Lord, and what things Aristion and the presbyter John, the disciples of the Lord, say. For I did not think that what was to be gotten from the books would profit me as much as what came from the LIVING and ABIDING VOICE (Oral Tradition).
The Writings of Papais,
From Book 3 of Ecclesiastical History
by Eusebius, Chap. 39, Para. 4
Papais considered the spoken words (Oral Tradition) of trustworthy individuals to have a greater value than the scriptures.
Ignatius. 108 A.D.
I heard some saying, If I do not find it in the ancient Scriptures, I will not believe the Gospel; on my saying to them, It is written, they answered me, That remains to be proved. But to me Jesus Christ is in the place of all that is ancient: His cross, and death, and resurrection, and the faith which is by Him, are undefiled monuments of antiquity.
The Epistle to the Philadelphians, Chap. 8
Ignatius is addressing those who claim they won't believe unless they find it in Scripture (Sola Scriptura). Notice that he seems to believe that the Faith (based on tradition) is sufficient proof.
Notice also that these who claim they will believe if they can find it written in the scriptures interpret the scriptures in such a way that they don't find the gospel in the scriptures. This problem of who is qualified to accurately interpret the scriptures is one of the problems with Sola Scriptura; no one can agree. But Ignatius sidesteps all this by stating that the Faith which has been passed on by the church is THE AUTHORITY.
Irenaeus. 180 A.D.
True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy.
Against Heresies, Book 4, Chap. 33, Para. 8
Notice that Scripture is merely one aspect of True Knowledge. The Church through her Validly-Ordained Succession of Bishops (Oral Tradition) also plays a key role.
Tertullian. 200 A.D.
But if there be any (heresies) which are bold enough to plant themselves in the midst Of the apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the apostles, because they existed in the time of the apostles, we can say: Let them produce the original records of their churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due succession from the beginning in such a manner that [that first bishop of theirs] bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the apostles or of apostolic men,-a man, moreover, who continued stedfast with the apostles. . . . To this test, therefore will they be submitted for proof by those churches, who, although they derive not their founder from apostles or apostolic men (as being of much later date, for they are in fact being founded daily), yet, since they agree in the same faith, they are accounted as not less apostolic because they are akin in doctrine.
The Prescription Against Heretics, Chap. 32
Notice that it is by virtue of being a Bishop whose Ordination is in a Succession from The Apostles which provides the Litmus Test of Truth; not the Scriptures. The Catholic Church teaches that the Catholic Church is the Repository of Truth and in this role provides AUTHORITIVE INTERPRETATION of SCRIPTURE.
There was no great OutCry of "Blasphemy" when these were written because it was excepted and understood by all The Church.
It was only after the Rebellion that Sola Scriptura became a Doctrine and we are still debating it today.
The Writings (Letters and Books) of The Early Church Fathers
Posted : 27 Nov, 2010 10:18 PM
You have to be careful when reading the Fathers.
I own a set of the Ante Nicene Fathers and have been a keen student of them for many years, as well as the Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers on CD ROM. I am aware of how powerful an attesting to Biblical truth they can be.
However, some (but not all) of the Fathers also got into some questionable stuff of their own regarding accurately representing the heresies they condemned, the character of their opponents and their usage of their Greek philosophical training in their discourses.
Sola Scriptura, as a Reformation doctrine, is simply an affirmation of what the early church always believed since the time of the apostles regarding the authority of Scripture - the same way that affirmation of the Nicene Creed concerning the Trinity only emphasized in written form what the Church had long accepted about the nature of God as Triune.
The Writings (Letters and Books) of The Early Church Fathers
Posted : 28 Nov, 2010 12:18 AM
Preacher,
How can you say:
"Sola Scriptura, as a Reformation doctrine, is simply an affirmation of what the early church always believed since the time of the apostles regarding the authority of Scripture..."
When any examination of their writings shows the exact Opposite? (as the above excerpts point out)
This shows why God place an Authority here on earth. Left to our own Higher Faculties we tend to pick and choose what we want...not what God wants.
The Writings (Letters and Books) of The Early Church Fathers
Posted : 28 Nov, 2010 01:51 AM
JUST FOR CLARIFICATION :
Your post states the "Early Church Fathers"
The beginning of the Roman Catholic church wasn't until 590 AD with Gregory I who consolidated the power of the bishopric in Rome. Again Steve you confuse your physical church with the real spiritual church of Jesus as spoken of in the scriptures.
The Writings (Letters and Books) of The Early Church Fathers
Posted : 28 Nov, 2010 07:19 AM
Two,
Do you EVER tire of being Wrong?
The first usage of the word Catholic (capital C) as the name of the Church Christ started with Peter as His First Vicar was around 100 years after Christ Death. It took many more years before it became the Official name.
Constantine merely made Christianity the Official Religion of The Roman Empire.
I would be embarrassed at being so wrong so many times!
The Writings (Letters and Books) of The Early Church Fathers
Posted : 28 Nov, 2010 10:32 AM
"Papais considered the spoken words (Oral Tradition) of trustworthy individuals to have a greater value than the scriptures"
"Ignatius is addressing those who claim they won't believe unless they find it in Scripture (Sola Scriptura). Notice that he seems to believe that the Faith (based on tradition) is sufficient proof."
"Notice that it is by virtue of being a Bishop whose Ordination is in a Succession from The Apostles which provides the Litmus Test of Truth; not the Scriptures. The Catholic Church teaches that the Catholic Church is the Repository of Truth and in this role provides AUTHORITIVE INTERPRETATION of SCRIPTURE."
I can't even believe you're promoting those statements. You(or your church) chooses to trust a man's words over the scriptures? It doesn't surprise me, because I've believed that for a long time, but to hear you say it publicly is refreshing.
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Matt. 15:7...Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
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Trusting in a man's tradition/interpretation is like the blind leading the blind. You cannot bring me to believe that the Catholic church and all her bishops were "Godly" men throughout history. They lived in luxury while people starved, they started wars, they sold forgiveness of sin, they compromised the truth to cater to false religions, they murdered millions of people just for disagreeing or for pointing out real error in Catholic "tradition", they removed the scriptures from the people, they "played the harlot" with secular governments in order to gain influence, and now that they "feel sorry" for what they did, I'm supposed to believe that they've always held the standard for truth, even while they're still following blatant erroneous man-made traditions instead of the Word of God? I can't believe that through all the error they've held, that they've managed to hold onto the truth at the same time. Maybe you should look really hard at your beliefs and ask yourself if you're being deceived, because looking to men for interpretation instead of the bible is the first assault on removing the truth. It's already happened once.
The Writings (Letters and Books) of The Early Church Fathers
Posted : 28 Nov, 2010 11:51 AM
Donthitthatmark, stated it well about the first large denomination that began after the Lord began His Church at Pentecost. Also Twosparrows was correct in his statement about the timing of the begining of the real church. Good going guys.
God describes a huge false church in Revelations the 17th and 18th chapters. The figurehead of this church is a woman that God refers to as a wh*re. {Harlot} {Revelation 17:1, Rev. 17:15-16, Rev19:2}.
The Lord's use of such strong language in these chapters is because multitudes of people from many nations have committed spiritual fornication with her and Her many daughter and wants us to know how grievous this sin is to Him for believers to be a part of such a system.
Revelation 17:2 �With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
Her many daughters; some would be the people who left this religion and through those who left, new religions were born. While other new religions such as the those with the Charismatic movement got that from the mother of Harlots.
The Oral Roberts University history of their church will verify that if anyone wants to take the time to look it up online.
5 �And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
I believe the family traits that the daughters of the mother of Harlots have are, glass stained windows, the wearing of a cross, water baptism by immersion, communion, Sunday Sabbath, religious garb, making people believe they can't understand scripture, asking for money, Holy days begun by the mother of Harlots that the daughters carry on, the use of Reverend in a man's title, images that can be pictures of Christ, and the list goes on.
The Lord even gives the location of the headquarters for the mother of Harlots.
Revelation 17:9 �And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
I looked up the Greek word for mountains and that same word also is used for hills as well. I got my info from Strong's Concordance.
I want to give two verses from chapter 18 of Revelations and see if anyone can connect the dots.
Revelation 18:3 �For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Revelation 18:11 �And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
You should ask yourself what delicacies could the mother of harlots have that makes people buy her merchandise that the merchants of the earth get rich on?
I'll give on one clue. Holy days can also be listed as delicacies that would make merchants increase their business.
Revelations 17:5, called calls her Mystery Babylon the Great. If one researches the religious practices including most of the holy days and wearing of the cross, they will discover these practices come from ancient Babylon. They are done in mystery; thus the reason Latin is used in services.
Jeremiah 10: 2-5 is a good example of a religious custom done today that was brought into our relatively modern world by this religious system and passed on down to the off shoot religions {the daughters of the harlot}.
Jeremiah 10:2 �Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3 �For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 �They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
5 �They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
Can you begin to see why this religious system wants to interpret everything for you so you don't become wise and become separated unto the Lord?
2 Corinthians 6:16 �And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 �Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 �And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
For anyone wanting more info concerning our modern day Babylon you can find a book online and read online and it is titled: The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop.
The Writings (Letters and Books) of The Early Church Fathers
Posted : 29 Nov, 2010 06:39 PM
"It was only after the Rebellion that Sola Scriptura became a Doctrine and we are still debating it today."
WRONG!
The word "DOCTRINE" is a modern English word, taken from the Latin "doctrina", which was translated by Jerome (347-420AD), and written in his Vulgate version 400AD, a long time before the Reformers... [16th and 17th Centuries]
It was the [purely fictional] Catholic Church that introduced the word "doctrina", from "doctor teacher", for one who was viewed to be a scholar..
And Saint Augustine, using the word "DOCTRINA", wrote his "De Doctrina Christiana" in 397, a long time, as well, before the reformers..
In fact, the word "doctrina", is not an accurate translation, because of its association with schola, schools, or scholars.
it means "teach, taught; act of teaching, instruction"
The words "scholar, doctor, and/or doctrina" are wholy new inventions of men associated with the Catholic Church, which was all about taking the word of God and converting it into capital.
It was the Catholic Church that kidnapped the Holy Writ, in the 2nd Century, twisted a few words, and PRESTO-CHANGO, we have a new religion, but just like the Romans, Greeks, et al, replete with fictitious iconography..
They had to add to their "doctrina" through the centuries, to keep men interested, and to create new forms of generating capital, such as the "selling of indulgences", where Saint Peter's Basilica was built on the converting of sinfulness into capital. The Catholic Church had men peddling contracts that were sold, pardoning the buyer, in advance, of any sin that was committed.
HERE IS A COMPLETE LISTING OF THE "DOCTRINA" OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.
NOTICE, HOW THESE DOCTRINA HAVE BEEN ADDED TO THROUGHOUT THE CENTURIES, PROVING THAT NOTHING ABOUT THIS SOCIAL ORGANIZATION..IS AUTHENTIC, AND THAT IT WAS ALL MADE UP... THROUGH THE CENTURIES!
�2nd cen Presbyters (or elders) were first called priest by Lucian
�AD 300 Prayers for the dead
�AD 375 The veneration or worship of angels and dead saints and the use of images
�AD 378 THE BISHOP OF ROME MADE PONTIFEX
�AD 394 The Mass as a daily celebration was adopted
�AD 431 The beginning of the exaltation of Mary, and the first use of the term Mother of God by the Council of Ephesus
�AD 431 Pope claims to possess the keys of Peter
�AD 500 Priest began to dress differently than the laity and to wear special clothes
�AD 526 Extreme Unction or Anointing of the Sick � One of the seven
Sacraments, in which a priest anoints and prays for one in danger of death
�AD 593 The doctrine of purgatory was first established by Gregory the Great
�AD 600 Prayers began to be offered to Mary, dead saints, and angels
�AD 610 The first man proclaimed with the title Pope (Boniface III)
�AD 788 Veneration of the cross, images, and relics authorized
�AD 850 Holy water, mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by a priest was authorized
�AD 890 Veneration of Saint Joseph
�AD 927 College of Cardinals begun
�AD 995 Canonization of dead saints by Pope John XV
�11th cen The Mass developed gradually as a sacrifice, attendance was made obligatory
�AD 1079 The celibacy of the priesthood was decreed by Pope Hildebrand, Boniface VII
�AD 1090 Peter the Hermit introduced the rosary, or prayer beads (copied from Hindus and Mohammedan)
�AD1184 The Rosary was legalized, and later promoted by the Forth Lateran Council in 1215
�AD 1190 The sale of indulgences
�12th cen The seven sacraments as defined by Peter Lombard
�AD 1215 The dogma of transubstantiation was decreed by Pope Innocent III
�AD 1215 The Inquisition of Heretics was instituted by the Council of Verona
�AD 1215 Confession of sins to a priest at least once a year was instituted by Pope Innocent III at the Fourth Lateran Council
�AD 1220 The adoration of the wafer (host) decreed by Pope Honorius III
�AD 1251 The scapular (a piece of brown cloth with a picture of the Virgin, supposed to contain supernatural power to protect those who wear it on naked skin from all danger) invented by Simon Stock of England
�AD 1439 The doctrine of purgatory proclaimed a dogma by the Council of Florence
�AD 1545 Tradition is declared of equal authority with the Bible by the Council of Trent
�AD 1546 The Apocryphal Books were added to the Bible by the Council of Trent
�AD 1585 Jesuit Priest Francisco Ribera introduces the Futurist view of prophecies concerning anti-christ
�AD 1854 The Immaculate Conception of Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius IX (this doctrine maintains that the Virgin Mary was in the first instance of her conception, preserved from all stain of original sin
�AD 1864 Pope Pius IX condemns all scientific discoveries not approved by the Roman Church
�AD 1870 Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals proclaimed by the First Vatican Council
�AD 1930 Pius XI condemned the public schools
�AD 1931 Pius XI reaffirmed the doctrine that Mary is The Mother of God
�AD 1950 The dogma of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius (the belief that Mary ascended bodily into heaven without dying)
�AD 1965 Mary proclaimed the Mother of the Church by Pope Paul VI
HOW WAS IT POSSIBLE FOR PETER TO HAVE BEEN THE FIRST APOSTLE, OR ANYONE, WHEN THEIR DOCTRINA IS PURELY FICTIONAL?
So, if you believe, after reading this, that the Catholic Church is legitimate in any sense of the word, I have some realestate off the coast of Southern California I'd like to sell you..
