A reply for Archimedes. You stated, "I believe you have a message somewhere in that post. I just got lost around the 42 paragraph and had to find some aspirin for my headache"
I have found from experience and the experience of others that when a person doesn't comprehend the things of God as God has given them, is because they don't have the mind of Christ or the Holy Spirit to teach them. That is why the Pharisees of old never could understand much of what the Lord gave them for truth.
Unless a man is born again of the spirit he cannot understand spiritual matters.
Naturally I have no idea where you stand in spiritually matters; all I can give is scripture that applies to the subject being discussed. You will have to be the judge wither any of the preceding verses fits your situation, because only you can know.
1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
You stated I should be consise, {I believe you mean concise} I won't address the other two adjectives as they are a redundancy of the word concise.
Sorry you don't have the patience to read all that I gave. It's impossible to give short answer since the scriptures are written in an ambiguous manner. The Lord tells us to prove all things and hold fast to that which is good. {1 Thessalonians 5:21}. I believe the godly way to answer is to give sufficient scripture to prove beyond doubt God's truth.
I suppose I could shorten my replies by only giving the location of the verse instead of giving both verse location and the verse. I have a feeling if I did that, no one would bother to look up and read what the verses say.
Another reason for giving a more than one or two verses for proof is because anyone could say that is my interpretation.
There is much spiritual darkness in the world today that makes it imperative to give enough information to prove beyond doubt what God's will is, versus man's many sectarian interpretations. These freewheeling interpretations add confusion and darkness to what is so very clear in scripture if one takes all of God's word in account on a given subject provided we allow the Holy Spirit to teach us, if we have a hunger for God's truth.
2 Corinthians 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
1 Corinthians 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
You stated, " Also I don't think that Scripture would agree with your answer about what is the Pillar of Truth. Scripture is what you Hold as the Final Court of Appeal...isn't it? What Scripture says ends all conversation...right? If Scripture says it is so...then...by Golly!"
You stated, you don't think the scriptures would agree with my answer. I appreciate your opinion. However, you didn't give any proof for your assumption and I give many verses to prove what I state. If Christ is not the fulfillment of all knowledge then Christ is not God. Provided I have understood your ambiguous statement.
1 Corinthians 1:5 That in everything ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
God's knowledge tells us man's mind is carnal, it is not subject to him so how would it be possible for any man to have a fraction of the Knowledge God has: the one who has created everything.
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
LOL, I hope I understood your last statement correctly because it really doesn't make any sense.
Archimedes, in regards to water baptism when the Church was first given; this baptism was only true for Jews and was never given for the Gentile to practice. It would only be a matter of time for Jews also to cease from water baptism, but God allowed it until He tore down the temple thirty years after his death on the cross. The book of Hebrews shows us how Paul explains that all carnal ordinances under the law were set aside {Ephesians 2:15-16}. The book of Hebrews tells Jewish believers to rest {Hebrews 4:9-10} from their own physical {carnal} works {Hebrews 7:16, Hebrews 9:10} because Christ fulfilled the entire law and that it was nailed to the cross. {Colossians 2:14-17, Ephesians 2:14-15}.
More proof that Gentiles were not to be under carnal {physical} ordinances.
Please read the 15th chapter of Acts and you will see there was a meeting to determine if Gentiles were to be under bondage to the Law. The conclusion was that Gentiles were to abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. {Acts 15:20} Please notice water baptism, tithing, communions, keeping holy days etc. are never mentioned, not once. If Gentiles were to keep ordinances the same as Jews they would have mentioned it at this meeting. Even Paul ceased from water baptism {1 Corinthians 1:14-16}
The water baptism that was given in Acts 10 happens about the same time the first Gentiles were saved. This is during this time that Paul did some water baptizing and it wasn't until later on in the meeting in Acts the fifteenth chapter that it was revealed that Gentiles were not under the burden the Jews had been under. I'll give part of that meeting here so the reader can see Gentiles were not to be under any kind of ordinances.
Acts 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
In regards to water baptism found in the gospels; the only water baptism is a baptism of repentance, {Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3}
Water baptism was a Jewish ceremonial baptism for those Jews who believed their Messiah was at hand and they were to repent and wait for their Messiah. It was never given to the church.
There are several differences between water baptism and spiritual baptism. Since water baptism was a ceremonial baptism it only got a Jew wet and a public profession of believe about their Messiah being at hand. {Matthew 3:2, Matthew 4:17, Mark 1:15}
Spiritual baptism on the other hand is done by the Lord {Colossians 2:12} and not by man as John did with water baptism. Water baptism requires a person to act as an intermediary to perform this baptism. {1 Timothy 2:5} Spiritual baptism is performed by God not man. God sees spiritual baptism as a believer being buried and raised with Christ. This can never be done or was ever done with water. Why settle for a baptism that shows unbelief, when the real deal will save your soul? In addition, the Holy Spirit never dwelled in a believer until spiritual baptism and that is the only means anyone can obtain it. Why settle for less when you can have God's spirit dwell in you?
Also during the time the Kingdom was offered to the Jews, the church that is Christ's body was not given or revealed until Paul did so after Christ ascended back into heaven. If the kingdom of God {thousand year reign} was part of the church then Christ would have revealed it while He was here rather than have Paul be an Apostle to the Gentiles and make both Jew and Gentile a new creature in Christ? {Galatians 6:15, Ephesians 2:15, Ephesians 4:24, Colossians 3:10}. This new man or creature in Christ is neither Jew nor Gentile could never have come about with a physical {carnal} ordinance such as water baptism. It can only be done by God just as Col. 2:12 says. I could give more on the subject of water baptism; but in order to avoid a headache for some I'll refrain. lol
The sum total of all that I have given is found in these next verses.
Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
We have one God, who has one body, {or church, not sectarian divisions} One spirit {the same message for all} that makes it possible for one hope of the Lord's calling for our salvation and our walk in Christ. To accomplish this God has only one faith, {not the faith of your choice} and one baptism {not both water and spirit for today}and when we walk in God's will we will have God the Father who is above all through all we do and that all that we can be according to His word.
God has declared one baptism and one faith and if our faith is not in agreement totally in agreement with the Eph. 4:4-6, than our faith is not found in God's word.
Enjoyed your post Gary. Yes baptism was a Jewish ritual, glad you brought that up! As for the three baptisms PJ mentioned I assume he is referring to ; water, Spirit and fire, but only he can say what he meant.
Very in-depth teaching of truth, here, Gary. The types and shadows from the old testament are so amazing!
I love the baptism of love that our Father gave us so freely. I often ask Him to baptize me in His river of love, especially when I'm feeling a desert walk coming on. :laugh: :purpleangel:
God bless ya all and Happy Thanksgiving! ~joey~ :waving:
Wow~I thought it went somewhere. Is it worth all the arguing that I've seen in this forum? It's not attractive at all to me anyway~ and typing in all CAPS is considered internet yelling. :boxing: Just saying~:purpleangel:
Hi Joey, thank you for your kindness. Speaking of types and shadows from the law that was nailed to the cross, {Col. 2:14-17} and abolished, {Ephesians 2:15} because now we have the real thing: Christ living in us, a living reality. Types and shadows were a forerunner of what Christ is like. The Lord kept the Law perfectly for all so now we can rest in Him, {Hebrews 4:9} and being a new creation in Christ, {2 Corinthians 5:17} and we can rest in His is sacrifice for sins 24/7 for unlike the law with its carnal ordinances, {Hebrews 9:10} a man could only rest physically one day a week. Where as we being a new creation, the Lord sees us as resting for eternity in Christ and cease from any works for salvation and give our efforts to serving him as our reasonable service, {Romans 12:1} from his word {John 8:47} and He has ordained it and not as we feel or what someone may tell us, but what we must prove ourselves by studying his word and rightly dividing it ,
{2 Timothy 2:15, 1 Corinthians 2:1}.
Speaking of being awash in God's love, I'll share how you can tap into God's love anytime we want, but of course you may know this already but if you don't, I'll share it with you anyway or anyone who wants a instant spiritual hug. It goes without saying we have to mean it and we have to be on prayer ground so the Lord hears us with no un-confessed sin being in the way. All we have to do is say in our thoughts, "I love you Lord or even I love you Holy Spirit or Father. Whatever name we use in our thought He will respond to any calling we give Him that is biblical. We can even address the Lord as Jehovah, or Reverend, or whatever other name in scripture describes our God.
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Mark 1:4
One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Ephesians 4:5
Joey, I'm not sure if it's the case with P.J or not, but I know one time my Caps lock key froze up and all I could type was capital letters. I was really embarrassed by it .
I got through more of it this time, but then you started going in circles and I got dizzy...sorry.
You stated that Scripture is "ambiguious". If it is ambiguious how can you be sure that your interpretation is correct and if The Holy Spirit gave you that interpretation...why does The Holy Spirit give other people different interpretations?
Another things is
"Why has The Church Baptized with water and The Holy Spirit since the Beginning...if (as you say) it is wrong?"
