15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God�s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
What are your thoughts on this verse? What does your church say about this verse? What does your Pastor say? What are your thoughts?
Especially the part that says
"the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth."
Scripture does not say that Scripture is The Pillar and Foundation of the Truth. Scripture says that The CHURCH is the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth.
Could this verse be referring to God Himself as the pillar and foundation of truth, instead of the Church?
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner [stone], a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. -Isaiah 28:16
Oh my, this is wrong on so many levels that I hardly know where to start..lol.
In order to make this verse say what you want it to say you have to do the following....
1) Make it a scripture of private interpretation, disregarding all other scriptures such as Jesus declaring he is the way, the truth and the life and many others.
2) Add "the" in front of "church" and "living pillar" because it does not appear in the greek.
3) Define the church as a organization instead of as the Bible defines the church as the body of Christ; living beings inhabited by his Spirit.
5) Finally you would have to say the church is the ultimate truth, NOT the Father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and as you said... NOT even scripture.
The most humorous is using the inerrantacy of scripture to prove it is less inerrant than the church.
The second most humorous part is at the time of this writhing the New Testament had not been compiled nor had all the books even been written yet.
The third most humorous is : Where do you think the New Testament scriptures came from? .... The New Testament Church is where they came from.
Im summary ; The New Testament Church is the pillar and foundation of the Church we have today. They left us scripture to help guide the Church in the future. There is no more scripture being written because there is (by mere defination) no longer a foundational Church.
THE EARLY CHURCH AS A WHOLE REPRESENTED THE TRUTH, THE LORD FAR BETTER THAN THE CHURCH OF TODAY, THE CHURCH WALKS OR LEANS MORE TOWARDS DARKNESS THAN IN THE LIGHT
I don�t see the humor in any of this. For over 1500 years men far more qualified to speak about Scripture and what Christ Commanded then you will ever approached, did not have any problem with what that piece of Scripture spoke to.
It was only just recently (the past 500 years) that �men� suddenly were given �the correct� interpretation.
When Christ Commanded The Apostles to go
�to the Ends of the World and TEACH what I have COMMANDED you.�
He made His Church a Teaching Church. He left everything pertaining to Christianity with Her�The Full Deposit of Faith. He also left The Holy Spirit with Her to ENSURE that nothing would be changed or altered. Christ also promised that She would be here when He Returns.
Christ is The CornerStone! Of course He is The Foundation! But my POINT is that Scripture says that THE CHURCH is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth Because it is She that has The Full Deposit of Faith! She has The Truth�not you Chuck or me or any human.
What do you think would happen if God allowed man to decide what Scripture means? Exactly what is happening now! Paragraphs of Scripture verses and humans justifying their position�what they believe to be interpretation. It would be Chaos!
The Apostles taught their Disciples and commanded them to
�HOLD fast to these Traditions�
To pass them on to Trustworthy Elders. Read what The Fathers of The Church wrote. Just 80 years after Christ�s Death we have a letter written by Clements of Rome. Read what he wrote to the churches. Read The Didache.
The Apostles wrote The New Testament. Do you think they knew what they meant? Do you think they told their Disciples?
Chuck, your excuses are Lame and nothing new. They have been used for years and smart Christians stay away from such Sophistry.
Believe what you will�you are still in The Body of Christ. You are still my Brother�heck�you may end up in Heaven and I might find myself down there, but�please�don�t twist Scripture! And which do you think Knows better what Scripture means � The Church or some guy�s (Strong�s) Accordion?
When you have a question about Scripture you either go to your Pastor or you pray for The Holy Spirit to guide you and decide what it means (or you go to that guy Strong�s Accordion).
Well, either The Holy Spirit is Schizophrenic (which I know it is Not) because so many people get different interpretations or you are not receiving anything from The Holy Spirit.
38,000 different Religions based on Scripture�38,000! That�s how many registered for a 301c tax Exemption last year. Each one a little bit different then the next one. Why? Because of individual interpretations!
We are no longer of One Voice�of One Prayer. I don�t expect to change anyone�s mind. I just hate it when I think that the dark one is howling with glee as we bicker and bite and fight amongst ourselves�trusting to our Higher Faculties, to our own discernments.
Scripture was written to people that already heard The Good News. The writers did not have to go over every detail because it had already been said. Scripture was never intended to be the sole means of answering questions about Faith and Morals. Scripture itself says that �Scripture is USEFUL��.
God has reveal Himself through other means such as Verbal (where He has actually Spoken to The Prophets). This Oral Revelation has been Passed on to Trustworthy Elders and together with The Written Revelation (Scripture) and The Magisterium (The Teaching Church), God has left a means to Teach and Correct and Propagate His Church.
Arch why do you think it was that 500 years ago men suddenly were given the correct interpretation as you sarcastically asked?
It is because about 500 years ago men gave their very lives, wealth and even family, they were imprisoned, tortured, hung and burned alive to bring the scriptures into the language and hands of the average person.
***Are you honest and bold enough to admit who would commit such atrocities to keep the scriptures out of the hands of men?****
***Your "Her" has gone astray and wandered from the truth a thousand years ago, it is only in the hundred years 'She' has begun to repent of the evil 'She' has committed ----for that I do rejoice and respect, but 'she' is coming around to slow for me personally to be involved with 'her' any longer****
that the Church that Christ said would be here when He Returned and that
"the Gates of Hades"
would not prevail against Her
somehow did fall by the side and that God abandoned Her and decided to spilt His Church into 38,000 churches?
Chuck...yes She has made many...many mistakes! Over 2000 years of being run by men...mistakes will happen! There were half-a-dozen Popes that were outright EVIL and yes...at the time that Luther Rebelled agaisnt Her, The Catholic Church was very corrupt and in need of Reforming, but you do it from WithIn! You do not divorce yourself from Her and go and start your on thing!
Yes...atrocities were committed! Arab cities were burned to the ground. Women and children massacred.
As for Scripture being kept from the masses...from the parishoners. There was usually a Bible in the Church (chained because they took many months to write and thusly were very expensive) for anyone to read. This Bible was mostly written in Latin.
Once the Printing Press became common, many Bibles were printed and translated into many languages. Only 60 years after the printing press was invented and became common...a book was published who's title was '100 Interpretations of "This is My Body...this is My Blood"'.'
100 interpretations! Until then there was only ONE INTERPRETATION. The same one that was there since the beginning.
Think about it...is this progess? Is this what God wants?
My Dear brother Arch cannot you SEE that the church is the body of Christ. Everyone who is filled with His Holy Spirit is a proverbial living stone built upon the foundation that Jesus himself laid. It is not confined to any organized 'denomination ' including yours. I cannot believe how you refuse to see that the Spirit of Jesus lives His people ; not in buildings denominations or religions.
Let me say this plainly : The Roman Catholic Church is NOT the "real" church, it is the Body of Christ that is the real Church spoken of in scripture and by Jesus. WE ARE THE CHURCH! I pray you see that.
Arguing over which "Church" or "Denomination" is more correct, is as old as Paul. It was happening in his day and he had plenty to say about it.
1 Corinthians 1-
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them [which are of the house] of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 3-
For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building.
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
For this reason, I don't believe Timothy was referring to the "Church" when he wrote "the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth." The Church is not the pillar and foundation of the truth. It is Christ who is the pillar and foundation of truth, of which He was before the Church came into existence. The Church builds upon the pillar and foundation of the living God. To say one particular Church is the pillar and foundation of truth creates contention and divides Christ, as Paul had seen in his day.
