Scripture does not teach �salvation is an individual choice�. Before you start gathering the wood to burn me at the stake, please consider these passages. I�ve added some questions after each passage to help focus your thoughts on what each says on the matter.
John 6: 44 �No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Question: According to this text, what does it mean when it says, �unless the Father who sent me draws him�?
John 6:65 He went on to say, �This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.�
Question: According to this text, what does it mean when it says, �unless the Father has enabled him�?
John 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God � 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband�s will, but born of God.
Question: This text clearly says that it is not �of a human decision�, who then is the one who is making the decision?
Heb. 12:2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith
Question: According to this text, who is the �creator� of our faith? Is it us or is it Jesus?
Eph. 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
Question: according to this text, did we choose to be in Christ or did He choose us to be in Him?
2 Thess 2:13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
Question: According to this text, who chose us to be saved? Ourselves, or God?
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith � and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God � 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God�s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Question 1: What is the gift of God according to this text?
Question 2: Whose workmanship are we?
Rom 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
Question: does faith come from within ourselves according to this text, or does it come from outside of us through the hearing of the word of Christ?
Note, these scriptures make it clear that saving faith does not have its origin within man, nor upon his �ability to believe�. Instead, these passages all agree that it is God who chooses us, draws us, enables us, and gives us faith as a gift.
The final nail in the coffin regarding this notion that �salvation is an individual choice� comes from Romans 8:5-8 which states, �5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God�s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
If salvation is an �individual choice� then all we would have to do is choose God then we�d be saved. Yet this is the very thing that this passage says that we cannot do. Sinners cannot submit to God�s law nor please God.
Suppose you had a disease which would led to your death. The hospital knew of no cure and gave you 6 months to live. Unknown to you a neighbor down the street who is educated in ancient herbal remedies and who has cured the same disease many times before hears of your plight. It is true ; the neighbor must first make a "individual choice" to offer his services. But when he shows up on your doorstep you have a "individual choice" to say leave me alone you quack or invite him in.
I believe God draws us all to a knowledge of the truth and enables us to understand it through the Holy Spirit. I do believe we also have the free choice to accept/reject it though, the bible seems pretty clear about that...to me at least. In my opinion, you have to get pretty fancy with interpretations to deny that.
"Well, the original Greek doesn't actually mean that there, it's actually a root derivative of definition 9.065b in Strong's Inspired Concordance, and I know which definition goes where because I have a 3rd degree from MIT(Man's Interpretation by Tradition) and I'll give it to you if you disagree".:winksmile:
Mt 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Jos 24:15a And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve
The Holy Spirit draws first. We choose to either receive or reject it.
It's certainly not like the heretical calvinistic doctrine that God picks and chooses who goes to hell and they can't do anything about it.
Actually you have it backwards everyone is going to HELL and deserves to go, and if He sent everyone to hell it would be right and just for Him to do so. God chooses whom He will's to save.
YOUR RIGHT IN ONE SENSE MR ROW, IF YOU ARE BORN ON THE EARTH YOU HAVE BEEN PREDISTENED TO BE CHOSEN AMONG THE ELECT. THEN YOU CHOOSE OR REJECT YOUR SALVATION
So God only picks a few extra special ones that are saved? Is that better?:winksmile: And how does it agree with "God is not a respecter of persons"? I dunno...I just can't help but see a conflict with God's character when you say "God only picks certain people". It makes Him sound like a tyrant, and that's not what I see in the bible at all. God wants everyone to turn from their wicked ways, and He doesn't want anyone to die, so if it's in His power to convict everyone of of sin and save them all through His will, then why doesn't He renew everyone? He says that's what He wants, right?
"So God only picks a few extra special ones that are saved? Is that better? And how does it agree with "God is not a respecter of persons"? I dunno...I just can't help but see a conflict with God's character when you say "God only picks certain people". It makes Him sound like a tyrant, and that's not what I see in the bible at all. God wants everyone to turn from their wicked ways, and He doesn't want anyone to die, so if it's in His power to convict everyone of of sin and save them all through His will, then why doesn't He renew everyone? He says that's what He wants, right?"
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WRONG!
First of all. The Lord did not pick "a few extra special ones," the ones He picked became "a few extra special ones!"
"YOU HAVE NOT CHOSEN ME, BUT I HAVE CHOSEN YOU AND ORDAINED YOU, THAT YE SHOULD GO AND BRING FORTH FRUIT, AND THAT YOUR FRUIT REMAIN: THAT WHATSOEVER YE ASK OF THE FATHER IN MY NAME, HE MAY GIVE IT TO YOU!" [John 15:16]
A brother earlier on in one of these posts mentioned being drawn. Some of you, which profess faith, do not seem to like quoting supporting scriptures.
"NO MAN CAN COME UNTO ME EXCEPT THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT ME DRAW HIM, AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY!" [John 6:44]
Now, I realize that this is not a scripture that most modern [so-called theologians] like to use, because it involves the eternal mystery of the Lord's election of His chosen people throughout all time.
Look at what He stated through Jeremiah, who, by the way, He said He had "BEFORE I FORMED THEE IN THE BELLY I KNEW THEE, AND BEFORE THOU CAMEST FORTH FROM THE WOMB I SANCTIFIED THEE AND ORDAINED THEE TO BE A PROPHET TO THE NATIONS!" [Jer. 1:5]:
"THE LORD HATH APPEARED OF OLD UNTO ME, SAYING; 'YEA, I HAVE LOVED THEE WITH AN EVERLASTINF LOVE, THEREFORE WITH LOVINGKINDNESS HAVE I DRAWN THEE!' " [Jer. 31:3]
And if you do not like what I have written, which are but a few of the scriptures of the Holy Writ, you will not like the rest either:
"ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVETH TO ME SHALL COME TO ME, AND HE THAT COMETH TO ME, I SHALL FOR NO REASON CAST OUT!" [John 6:37]
"AND THIS IS THE WILL OF THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT ME, THAT OF ALL WHICH HE HATH GIVEN ME I SHALL LOSE NOTHING, BUT RAISE IT UP AGAIN AT THE LAST DAY!" [John 6:39]
"AND WHEN THE GENTILES HEARD THIS THEY WERE GLAD AND GLORIFIED THE WORD OF THE LORD, AND AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED!" [Acts 13:48]
"BUT WE ARE BOUND TO GIVE THANKS ALWAYS TO GOD FOR YOU, BRETHREN BELOVED OF THE LORD, BECAUSE GOD HATH FROM THE BEGINNING CHOSEN YOU TO SALVATION THROUGH SANCTIFICATION OF THE SPIRIT AND BELIEF OF THE TRUTH!" [II Thess 2:13]
"PETER, AN APOSTLE OF JESUS CHRIST, TO THE STRANGERS SCATTERED THROUGHOUT PONTUS, GALATIA, CAPPADOCIA, ASIS, AND BITHYNIA, ELECT ACCORDING TO THE FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD THE FATHER, THROUGH SANTIFICATION OF THE SPIRIT, UNTO OBEDIENCE AND SPRINKLING OF THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST:" [I Peter 1:1, 2]
Notice that in I Peter 1:1, 2, Peter stated, "ELECT ACCORDING TO THE FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD THE FATHER, THROUGH SANCTIFICATION, UNTO OBEDIENCE.."
It did not state "THROUGH OBEDIENCE UNTO SANCTIFICATION!"
"SANCTIFICATION" means set apart from the human race for a specific purpose. We were set apart, or SANCTIFIED, UNTO OBEDIENCE, not because we were obedient..
Some of you folks need to quit listening to every word these professional preachers state, and read the word of God:
"I ENDURE ALL THINGS FOR THE SAKE OF THE ELECT, THAT THEY ALSO MAY OBTAIN THE SALVATION WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS WITH ETERNAL GLORY!" [II Tim 2:10]
And finally, the BIGGEST scripture the Arminians [unbelievers]love to twist.
"THE LORD IS NOT SLACK CONCERNING HIS PROMISE AS SOME MEN COUNT SLACKNESS; BUT IS LONGSUFFERING TO USWARD, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, BUT THAT ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTENCE!" [II Peter 3:9]
It reads, "BUT IS LONGSUFFERING TO US-WARD" or "TOWARDS-US", and now a continuation of that sentence, "NOT WILLING THAT ANY [of US] SHOULD PERISH, BUT THAT ALL [of US] SHOULD COME TO REPENTENCE!"
You cannot take a part of that verse, "NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH" which is a favorite ploy of the Arminian and remove it from its syntax. It states, "BUT IS LONGSUFFERING TOWARDS US, NOT WILLING THAT ANY [of US], because the comma after "US", means that it is a continuation of throught, not a broken one.
"HE IS LONGSUFFERING TOWARDS US, NOT WILLING THAT ANY OF US SHOULD PERISH, BUT THAT ALL OF US SHOULD COME TO REPENTENCE!"
Hence, "ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVETH TO ME SHALL COME TO ME!" And then, "AND HE THAT COMETH TO ME, I SHALL IN NO WISE CAST OUT!"
"the ones He picked became "a few extra special ones!"
So why did He pick those and not the others? Sounds like you're saying what I said, just moving the words around a bit, lol. And as far as quoting scripture goes, you're a little late to the argument. I've learned my lesson, it's pretty much a waste of time. I've posted a ton of verses on here, and people either just ignored them or reinterpreted them with some other book/concordance/preacher. All the parables of Jesus, even direct quotes from the mouth of God don't get any respect. Ok, so here's a challenge. Read the parables of Jesus through a couple times, and read Ezekiel chapter 18 and 33. I never did get an explanation of those parables/chapters, and they are the plainest, most redundant scriptures I can find that contradict this idea that we're specially "chosen" and that we can never lose God's mercy. There are a bunch more, but if you can explain those away, I'll have no argument.
Anyway, I do believe in predestination, just not the same way. We are degenerate sinful beings, and without a knowledge of God we would never seek Him. Thankfully, He spreads the "seed/spirit/truth" everywhere. He brings us to a knowledge of the truth and convicts us of sin and our need for a savior. He knows what we will choose and what we will do with that knowledge, so in that sense we are predestined, but He does it without removing our will, and without "force". He knows which people are "stony" or "thorny" ground, but He gives them the truth anyway. What for?
I also believe "predestination" applies to a certain "people", like God did with Israel. Israel was the "chosen" people, but God made it clear that they all weren't going to make it, even though they were "special". They had to do His will and become like Him, not to earn anything, but because they loved Him. It was pretty simple. If they couldn't even do what God asked them to do, then they did not love and trust Him, no matter how much they thought they did, and they could not be accepted into His perfect kingdom because they loved themselves more than anything else and they would have messed it all up again just like Satan did.
Anyway, I feel this idea of only the "extra special people" being saved is closely related to the pharisee's view that only "Israel" was worth anything and they could do no wrong, but God sure pointed them out as wrong.
I believe God loves and looks at every human the same, and all are given the same chance. He died for everyone and had the gift of redemption to offer to us all even before we were created. It was foreseen/predestined. Some choose not to take it, some choose to waste it, some just think they have it, and some are accepted because they "do the will of the Father" because they love Him. God knows who they are, but I believe that to imply that God is the one that locks people out of His love is a misrepresentation of His character. Maybe you're not saying that, I don't know. Personally, I just know that if I had to believe in a God that played "duck, duck, goose" with people's salvation, and then burned the ones He didn't choose for all eternity...I wouldn't be a Christian. That kind of "god" isn't "love", and it wouldn't deserve the kind of love God asks for, would it? I've have a hard time seeing it anyway...maybe you can show me.
