Thread: Several Theologies Are Based Upon the Chosen People Belief
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Several Theologies Are Based Upon the Chosen People Belief
Posted : 29 Sep, 2010 06:41 AM
Dispensationalism is not the only false doctrine which relies upon the belief that the Hebrews - ethnic Israel or the Jews - are the chosen people. Dispensationalists and Sacred Namers do not usually claim to have sacred blood, but they very much honor those who do have it, or claim to be physical descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Whether those who are of ethnic Israel have rejected Christ, or not, and whether they are saved or not, they remain the chosen race, according to several theologies.
Followers of Chistian identity claim that the Germanic and Celtic peoples are descended from the Lost Tribes of Israel, and therefore the Christian Identity people belong to the chosen race. They may, however, oppose the Jews.
Many groups in Messianic Judaism lay claim to being of the chosen race. Some say many in Messianic Judaism cannot prove their Hebrew blood and are really caucasians or Gentiles. See http://www.bible-researcher.com/gal6-16.html
and go to Footnote (5).
The Mormons also claim to have Hebrew blood and for that reason are members of God's chosen race.
On http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_and_the_Book_of_Mormon
"The understanding of Joseph Smith, and, traditionally, of Mormons in general, is that the Book of Mormon indicates that the Lamanites, descended from Lehi, are a "remnant of the House of Israel"
Apparently the Mormons have claimed to be descendants of the Lamanites.
All of these false doctrines are based on the belief that the physical descendants of Abraham are God's chosen people, and that God will save the chosen people in the end times. And many of those who say they are Christians and follow one or more of these false doctrines want to mingle the Old and New Covenants.
In engaging these people its important to answer some of their questions - should they even ask questions. But it is also important not to let them drag a Remnant Christian into the dialectic.
John 3: 1-7, John 8: 32-34, John 8: 39-40, John 8: 44, Romans 2: 28-29, Romans 9: 6-8, Romans 11: 20 , Galatians 3: 28, Galatians 4: 22-26 are Scriptures that we can use to answer them.
Matthew 8: 11-12 says "And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
The "children of the kingdom" are those of ethnic Israel, most of whom rejected Christ.
Luke 3: 7-9 "Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8. Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
9. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."
John the Baptist is speaking here and apparently there are Pharisees in the crowd he is talking to. The trees which are to be cut down is ethnic Israel, which does not bear fruit, that is, ethnic Israel as a group did not accept Christ and be transformed into born again Israel in Christ and in the Holy Spirit.
The church Christian followers of one or more of these false doctrines that honor the chosen people claim there is no authority in Scripture saying they cannot make use of parts of the Old Covenant and still be in Christ Jesus.
Colossians 2: 16-17 says "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. " The institutions of the Old Covenant were shadows of things to come, and are the weak and beggaly elements Paul mentions in Galatians 4: 9, "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?"
"Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" Galatians 3: 3
What Paul is saying goes beyond the issue he was focused on in Galations, which was circumcision. Being made perfect in the flesh can refer to following many other aspects of the Old Covenant.
Several Theologies Are Based Upon the Chosen People Belief
Posted : 29 Sep, 2010 12:33 PM
Halfback,
If the belief that Israel as a chosen race/nation/people of God is a false doctrine as you believe, why don't you prove it using YOUR Bible and what God has to say in the matter instead of laying out pasted articles, dodging questions, and running from the thread. Show us where God has forever cast away Israel and His chosen people.
For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, [and] Israel for his peculiar treasure. -Psalm 135:4
For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that [are] upon the earth. -Deuteronomy 14:2
For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth. -Deuteronomy 7:6
And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: [is] not this a brand plucked out of the fire? -Zechariah 3:2
But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called [thee] by thy name; thou [art] mine. -Isaiah 43:1
Several Theologies Are Based Upon the Chosen People Belief
Posted : 29 Sep, 2010 07:37 PM
What about the fact that Christian Gentiles are grafted into the family of Abraham? If we are grafted in then are we not also Israel? Those who are circumcised of the heart are the true Jews, right? Why is it that we can believe that there are prophesies in the Bible that apply to more than one era of time but we can't believe there are two Israels?
What do Jacob and Israel represent considering they were the same person in the OT. Who are Jacob and Israel in the prophetic sense?
Several Theologies Are Based Upon the Chosen People Belief
Posted : 30 Sep, 2010 06:04 AM
Hebrews 10: 1 says "For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect..."
The law in Hebrews 10: 1 is the law of Moses of the Old Covenant. It was a shadow of good things which were to come later, that is, Jesus Christ, and his New Covenant. But the law under the Old Covenant could not make one perfect. Only Christ and the Holy Spirit can make one sanctified, or perfect.
Hebrews 10: 7-10 says "Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9. Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
"He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." He is God, or Christ, who takes away the Old Covenant with its institutions, the ceremonial law, animal sacrifices, circumcision, etc.
Christ said on the Cross "It is finished." John 19: 30
Christ was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. But - "He came unto his own, and his own received him not." John 1: 11
As a result the children of the kingdom, i.e, ethnic Israel who rejected Christ,"...shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 8: 12
Christ is not going to complete his work at the end, during the tribulation, when the rapture believers think the dispensationalist Church will have been raptured off the earth before the tribulation begins, so that he then saves ethnic Israel who rejected him and bring all of them back from outer darkness. Christ's work for ethnic Israel was completed on the Cross. If he were scheduled to bring ethnic Israel back from outer darkness during the tribulation, this would contradict a number of New Testament verses, including Matthew 8: 12, Romans 9: Romans 9: 8, etc.
Several Theologies Are Based Upon the Chosen People Belief
Posted : 30 Sep, 2010 03:02 PM
Thunder,
You asked - "What about the fact that Christian Gentiles are grafted into the family of Abraham? If we are grafted in then are we not also Israel? Those who are circumcised of the heart are the true Jews, right? Why is it that we can believe that there are prophesies in the Bible that apply to more than one era of time but we can't believe there are two Israels?"
Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; -Ephesians 2:11-13,19
The above verses show that Gentiles who used to be far from God have now been brought near God because of Christ. Thus, the status of believing Gentiles has changed. They now share with Israel in Israel�s covenants and promises but they do not become Israel.
Romans 11:17�24 tells us that Gentiles are now related to the promises of God. There is a unity between believing Jews and Gentiles, but it does not indicate that the church is now the true Israel. There is a difference between saying that Gentiles participate with Israel in Israel�s covenants and claiming that believing Gentiles become Israel. Gentiles are partakers of the covenants, not a Church body that takes over those covenants. Neither does that passage rule out a future role for national Israel. Since the New Covenants [Jeremiah 31] are eternal and unconditional covenants, then we should expect God to fulfill these covenants with Israel, the people with whom the covenants were made.
Salvation of �all Israel� will occur in accordance with the New Covenant promises given to Israel in the Old Testament. Israel�s promises remain Israel�s promises. They have not been transferred to the church. Nor does the church push Israel out of its place in the divine history, though there are those that would try.
As to your other question, there are several scriptures in the OT that tell us of the promises to Jacob and Israel. They are promised spiritual and physical blessings. From what I've seen, God includes one with the other.
For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of [him that was] stronger than he.
Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all. -Jeremiah 31:11,12
Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob.
And they shall dwell safely therein, and shall build houses, and plant vineyards; yea, they shall dwell with confidence, when I have executed judgments upon all those that despise them round about them; and they shall know that I [am] the LORD their God. -Ezekiel 28:25,26
Several Theologies Are Based Upon the Chosen People Belief
Posted : 30 Sep, 2010 03:46 PM
Halfback, you said-
"Christ is not going to complete his work at the end, during the tribulation, when the rapture believers think the dispensationalist Church will have been raptured off the earth before the tribulation begins, so that he then saves ethnic Israel who rejected him and bring all of them back from outer darkness. Christ's work for ethnic Israel was completed on the Cross. If he were scheduled to bring ethnic Israel back from outer darkness during the tribulation, this would contradict a number of New Testament verses, including Matthew 8: 12, Romans 9: Romans 9: 8, etc."
Nothing has been said about bringing anyone back from outer darkness. What is Daniel's 70th week to you? Or the time of Jacob's Trouble? Read your Old Testament. The Lord will not leave Israel unpunished. But through it, she will be saved.
Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make [him] afraid.
For I [am] with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished. And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. -Jeremiah 30:10,11,22
Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou [art] my servant: I have formed thee; thou [art] my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me.
I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.
Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done [it]: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel. Isaiah 44:21-23
Who [is] a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth [in] mercy.
He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.
Thou wilt perform the truth to Jacob, [and] the mercy to Abraham, which thou hast sworn unto our fathers from the days of old. -Micah 17:18-20
You say "Christ's work for ethnic Israel was completed on the Cross." It is true that Christ nailed sin to the Cross providing salvation to all who believe, but His death did not void the covenant that God has with Israel or His plan for her. God cannot make an everlasting covenant with His chosen people and then reject His own election.
Several Theologies Are Based Upon the Chosen People Belief
Posted : 30 Sep, 2010 06:17 PM
Justin Martyr, an early Church Father, disagrees that God has two peoples with whom he deals differently. Justin says �Isaiah 42:1-4 Then is it Jacob the patriarch in whom the Gentiles
and yourselves shall trust? or is it not Christ? As, therefore, Christ
is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out
from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race.�
Here is the longer statement by Justin:
The following is from Justin Martyr�s Dialogue with Trypho.
Several Theologies Are Based Upon the Chosen People Belief
Posted : 1 Oct, 2010 05:51 PM
@ half back where do you put the rapture of the church taking place? at what point? so if dispensationlism is wrong what are you new covenant theology? are you all mil,l post trib, pre trib?
Several Theologies Are Based Upon the Chosen People Belief
Posted : 2 Oct, 2010 04:19 AM
Hamilton727
I was never taught dispensationalism. When I was about 14 or 15 I joined a Southern Baptist church in South Texas, but did not attend for very long. I do not remember them teaching anything on the key points of dispensatiomnalism, Jewish supremacy and the pre-tribulation rapture.
When I became a Christian a few decades later I did not join a church in Austin, Texas where I was then. I read almost all the books of Francis Schaeffer, who was a Reformed theologian. This caused me to be into Reformed or Calvinist doctrine for a while. During this time also I was not into anything dispensationalist.
Again, when I moved toward the Christian Remnant beliefs I still was not taught anything dispensationalist. The Remnant groups I have been in follow historical premillennialism. That is, we believe in the thousand year reign of Christ on earth. But we do not believe in Jewish supremacy.
There is no capital C "Church" in scripture, as different from ethnic Israel.
You have to understand Paul to realize that everyone, no matter of what race, who is born again in Christ, is of Israel. There is no acceptance of people based upon race in the New Testament. Read Romans 2: 28-29 "...he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."
If you let man made theology override an understanding of Romans 2: 29, that a Jew is one inwardly, based on Paul's metaphor, in circumcision of the heart in the spirit, is a transformed or born again in Christ Israelite, then you cannot understand Paul here.
Romans 9: 8 "They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. "
Romans 9: 31-32 " But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;"
What could be the motivation for following at theology that is so different from what the New Testament says?
Partly its the lure of the pre-tribulation rapture. Paul says in I Corinthians 15: 52 that Christ will appear at the last trumpet. Thats the end of the tribulation, however long that period is, not the beginning.
And partly its historically the effective introduction and promotion of dispensatinalism to the churches over a period of time, from the late 19th century until now. It was not exactly a Jewish faction that did this. It appears it was a part of a non-Christian elite that is Gentile which promoted dispensationalism. There was an agenda they wanted carried out.
Several Theologies Are Based Upon the Chosen People Belief
Posted : 2 Oct, 2010 02:25 PM
so how long is tribulation you say 1000 year reign but you say you are pre mil have you ever took the time to read daniel and 1 Thessalonians on the day of the Lord and 2thess on the day of christ?
