Thread: Original Sin -- Depravity Infects Everyone
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Original Sin -- Depravity Infects Everyone
Posted : 15 Sep, 2010 07:58 PM
Original Sin - Depravity Infects Everyone
J.I. Packer (from Concise Theology)
"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Ps. 51:5)
Scripture diagnoses sin as a universal deformity of human nature, found at every point in every person (1 Kings 8:46; Rom. 3:9-23; 7:18; 1 John 1:8-10). Both Testaments have names for it that display its ethical character as rebellion against God's rule, missing the mark God set us to aim at, transgressing God's law, disobeying God's directives, offending God's purity by defiling oneself, and incurring guilt before God the Judge. This moral deformity is dynamic: sin stands revealed as an energy of irrational, negative, and rebellious reaction to God's call and command, a spirit of fighting God in order to play God. The root of sin is pride and enmity against God, the spirit seen in Adam's first transgression; and sinful acts always have behind them thoughts, motives, and desires that one way or another express the willful opposition of the fallen heart to God's claims on our lives.
Sin may be comprehensively defined as lack of conformity to the law of God in act, habit, attitude, outlook, disposition, motivation, and mode of existence. Scriptures that illustrate different aspects of sin include Jeremiah 17:9; Matthew 12:30-37; Mark 7:20-23; Romans 1:18-3:20; 7:7-25; 8:5-8; 14:23 (Luther said that Paul wrote Romans to "magnify sin"); Galatians 5:16-21; Ephesians 2:1-3; 4:17-19; Hebrews 3:12; James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4; 5:17. Flesh in Paul usually means a human being driven by sinful desire; the niv renders these instances of the word as "sinful nature." The particular faults and vices (i.e., forms and expression of sin) that Scripture detects and denounces are too numerous to list here.
Original sin, meaning sin derived from our origin, is not a biblical phrase (Augustine coined it), but it is one that brings into fruitful focus the reality of sin in our spiritual system. The assertion of original sin means not that sin belongs to human nature as God made it (God made mankind upright, Eccles. 7:29), nor that sin is involved in the processes of reproduction and birth (the uncleanness connected with menstruation, semen, and childbirth in Leviticus 12 and 15 was typical and ceremonial only, not moral and real), but that (a) sinfulness marks everyone from birth, and is there in the form of a motivationally twisted heart, prior to any actual sins; (b) this inner sinfulness is the root and source of all actual sins; (c) it derives to us in a real though mysterious way from Adam, our first representative before God. The assertion of original sin makes the point that we are not sinners because we sin, but rather we sin because we are sinners, born with a nature enslaved to sin.
The phrase total depravity is commonly used to make explicit the implications of original sin. It signifies a corruption of our moral and spiritual nature that is total not in degree (for no one is as bad as he or she might be) but in extent. It declares that no part of us is untouched by sin, and therefore no action of ours is as good as it should be, and consequently nothing in us or about us ever appears meritorious in God's eyes. We cannot earn God's favor, no matter what we do; unless grace saves us, we are lost.
Total depravity entails total inability, that is, the state of not having it in oneself to respond to God and his Word in a sincere and wholehearted way (John 6:44; Rom. 8:7-8). Paul calls this unresponsiveness of the fallen heart a state of death (Eph. 2:1, 5; Col. 2:13), and the Westminster Confession says: "Man by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto" (IX. 3).
The phrase total depravity is commonly used to make explicit the implications of original sin. It signifies a corruption of our moral and spiritual nature that is total not in degree (for no one is as bad as he or she might be) but in extent. It declares that no part of us is untouched by sin, and therefore no action of ours is as good as it should be, and consequently nothing in us or about us ever appears meritorious in God's eyes. We cannot earn God's favor, no matter what we do; unless grace saves us, we are lost.
Total depravity entails total inability, that is, the state of not having it in oneself to respond to God and his Word in a sincere and wholehearted way (John 6:44; Rom. 8:7-8). Paul calls this unresponsiveness of the fallen heart a state of death (Eph. 2:1, 5; Col. 2:13), and the Westminster Confession says: "Man by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto" (IX. 3).
First and foremost what is the point of such a post, the Gospel is not about sin, but the Good news.
These two paragraphs are in no way in agreement with scripture
There are numerous examples in the old testament of mankinds actions being pleasing to the lord.
Grace is a part in mankind coming to the lord, but grace alone saves no one.
all the old testament saints, that died in faith are in heaven today by faith.
scripture no where agrees with man being total unable to respond to the word.
I think the statements regarding depravity in Sir James's post are accurate and supported by scripture. Salvation only comes through grace and not by anything we can do ourselves. Because if you could do it yourself you'd have something to boast about. But since you have nothing to do with it and it comes to you through a power outside of yourself you have nothing to claim for yourself but the grace by which you were saved and the sacrifice that bought your freedom from yourself.
The third and fourth chapters of Romans refute that whole concept, concerning the statement of grace, and the old testament is full of examples that do not agree with total inability.
Enoch so pleased the lord that he took him and he never saw death, Glory.
Yes Jesus and the father knew mankind was in a mess, but they in their endless mercies made a way, and the way was faith and the faith was accounted unto them for righteousness.
God has many times in scripture commanded us to believe the gospel, and to repent...therefore we are able to. unbelievers are to "obey the gospel".
Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
2Thess 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1John 3:23 And this is His commandment, That we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
in the old testament, scripture says -
Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may live."
Joshua 24:15: And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
Psalm 119:30, 111, 173: I have CHOSEN The Way of Truth: Thy Judgments have I laid before me....Thy Testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for They are the rejoicing of my heart....Let Thine hand help me; for I have chosen Thy Precepts.
"inability" is a false teaching of the reformed doctrine, part of T.U.L.I.P. , specifically, the "T" in that acronym which stands for total depravity. it falsely teaches that man is unable to seek God or believe the gospel.
Some scripture showing that unbelievers can and do seek God:
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.
Jeremiah 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
I'm sure I could find many more examples in scripture of people seeking God before they were saved. All we have to do is look. I found several examples just in Acts 17.
Acts 17:26 And (God) has made of one blood all nations of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27: That they should seek the Lord, if perhaps they might feel after Him, and find Him, though He be not far from every one of us:
Acts 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore you ignorantly worship, Him declare I unto you.
These people didn't know God, but WERE seeking Him.
Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming there went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11: These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
12: Therefore many of them believed; also of honorable women who were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
These Jews were seeking God in the scriptures, and were saved as a result.
Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
43: Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44: And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. (which to me means that they chose not to believe).
Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31: And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
We can see from Romans 1 and John 1 that God created us with an innate awareness that there is a God to whom we are responsible. It is this "Light that lights every man that comes into the world" - the conscience. If God "regenerated" some people before they seek Him, He would be a god who played favorites - and scripture says He does not. God only saves "them that believe". He looks at our heart to see if it is open to Him, to see if it has turned toward Him. Here is a good passage that shows this -
2Cor 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13: And not as Moses, who put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly see the end of that which is abolished:
14: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remains the same veil not taken away in the reading of the old covenant; which veil is done away in Christ.
15: But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their hearts.
16: Nevertheless when it (the heart) shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.
God takes the blinders off our eyes when He sees that our heart is open to Him, when it turns toward Him. but this removing of the blinders is not salvation, but drawing and conviction. from that point we can either repent or reject the gospel.
It is not "God's good pleasure" (as Calvinism teaches) to condemn anyone. I believe it truly breaks His heart when someone rejects Christ.
Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Lydia is another biblical example of a person seeking and worshipping God, but not yet saved. She was at a river with other women which was a place they commonly went to pray. God "opened Lydia's heart" because He saw that her heart was seeking Him.
Acts 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
14: And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened , that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
Lydia was already worshipping God, but like many Jews, had not accepted the gospel of Christ. She was being drawn by the Holy Spirit, but drawing is not regeneration, since all people are drawn (John 12:32) but many reject the gospel. God did not "open her heart" until she was seeking Him.
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.
This is in response to this posting and the responses.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
Gen 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
Genesis 3:1-6
Man does not believe what YHWH tells him about death/seperation from GOD..
vs.7-8
Mans answer to the concequences of his and her unbelief:
Sew fig leaves and hide from YHWH.
vs.9
YHWH seeks the man and aks Adam,Adam do you know where you are..
Who was the one seeking the other,Adam seeking YHWH,NO YHWH sought Adam.
We do not seek Yeshua,rather He seeks me/us.
Yes the Holy Spirit using James says to seek the Lord, yet this is the Holy Spirits will not the will of man.
Ex 33:7 And Moses took the tabernacle, and pitched it without the camp, afar off from the camp, and called it the Tabernacle of the congregation. And it came to pass, that every one which sought the LORD went out unto the tabernacle of the congregation, which was without the camp.
Ps 34:4 I sought the LORD, and he heard me, and delivered me from all my fears.
De 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
2Ch 19:3 Nevertheless there are good things found in thee, in that thou hast taken away the groves out of the land, and hast prepared thine heart to seek God.
2Ch 30:19 That prepareth his heart to seek God, the LORD God of his fathers, though he be not cleansed according to the purification of the sanctuary.
Ezr 6:21 And the children of Israel, which were come again out of captivity, and all such as had separated themselves unto them from the filthiness of the heathen of the land, to seek the LORD God of Israel, did eat,
Well George The Lord Jesus Believes people can and did seek him.
