Author Thread: Is The Rapture Bibical?
firstfruit2

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Is The Rapture Bibical?
Posted : 1 Sep, 2010 04:01 PM

The Rapture Is Wrong: The Saints Don't Rise to be carried back to heaven!

The Bible says the saints rise to meet Christ at His return. But they aren't snatched away to heaven. They rise in the air to perform a fitting salute to the King of Kings and then join Him, not in heaven, but on the earth. The rapture wasn't taught until approximately 1,800 years after Christ began the New Testament Church!

Today's teachers of the rapture weave numerous biblical references into their narratives, but John Darby and other early rapture advocates based their belief on two verses: 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

In particular, they believed the words "shall be caught up" in verse 16 conveyed the idea that Christ would snatch the saints away. Combining this with the biblical teaching that God would protect His people in the end-time Tribulation, they projected that Christ would take the saints to heaven during that period.

Doctrine must come from the Word of God, not the word of man. What does God's Word say? .

Paul was comforting members of the Church of God in Thessalonica who were grieving over believers who had died. The survivors feared that their loved ones would lose out on participating in God's glorious Kingdom. Christ inspired Paul to put in plain words the truth of the matter. Those who died didn't go to heaven. They were in their graves. But that didn't mean they would lose out on the marvelous Kingdom of God or that the believers still living would have any advantage.

"We who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep [dead]" (1 Thessalonians 4:15). Paul's message was that the dead would rise. The biblical term for rising from the dead is resurrection. A parallel reference is 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, which plainly tells us that God resurrects deceased believers to spirit at "the last trumpet," the same "trumpet of God" mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

Verse 51 of 1 Corinthians 15 also reveals that God will also change to spirit those believers still living at Christ's return.

That change is what enables the saints to rise in the air to meet Christ. Human beings can't just go up in the air! But spirit beings can! In the first resurrection, God changes mortal saints into immortals (1 Corinthians 15:53).

The rapture theory says Christ takes the saints to heaven to spare them from the Great Tribulation. But spirit beings don't need to be rescued from anything that the physical realm might inflict. They can't be hurt by physical events. It therefore makes no sense to think that Christ must take them to heaven to protect them from the evils on earth.

The book of Revelation tells of seven trumpets sounded by seven angelic beings at the end of the age. The drama builds through each event announced by a trumpet blast until the seventh and final angel sounds. His announcement is the finale, the last and greatest event: The return of Jesus Christ to inaugurate the Kingdom of God on earth.

"Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!'" (Revelation 11:15).

Scripture doesn't allow for a rapture of the saints to heaven for an interim of several years! To the contrary, "the last trumpet" announces Christ's return to rule over the earth. Reading the full message of Revelation along with Matthew 24 shows that the timing is critical; that human governments are in the process of destroying the earth. Jesus comes not only for spiritual salvation, but also to save humankind from destroying itself. It is an emergency demanding immediate intervention.

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Posted : 2 Sep, 2010 08:34 AM

I have a few problems with what you've written.



First, there is historical evidence that the early church members did indeed believe not only in a rapture, but in a pretribulation rapture. Please do some research on Epharaem the Syrian and what it was he wrote in 373 AD.



Second, the word "rapture" comes from the Latin word "rapturo" which is the equivalent of the verb "caught up" in the Greek. The Greek word used here is "harpazo" (Strong's G726) and it means, quite literally, "to seize, carry off by force, to snatch our or away." So, you're logic here isn't actually well.. logical.



Thirdly, scripture tells us that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord 2 Corinthians 5:8. It also says that we're already seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus Ephesian 2:6. Luke 16 shows us that when the body dies the is still consciousness. The man in torment knew exactly where he was and why he was there. So, to say that one dies but that one's soul does NOT go anywhere is also erroneous. Jesus' soul was certainly awake when He led captivity captive before He obtained that resurrection body.



Fourthly, when we look at the churches in Revelation, we see one church who is promised this: "I will also keep you FROM the hour of testing that is going to come over the whole world to test those who live on the earth." Revelation 3:10. Now, "from" is the Greek word ek. It means "out of, from, away from." So, God will either make sure that this is church is taken out of the hour of testing (i.e Tribulation period) that will come on the whole earth, or God will keep them away from it. How God will manage to keep earth quakes, famines, war, not to mention what Revelation calls "the wrath of the Lamb" (Rev 6:16-17) that is poured out on all the earth when the church is not appointed to wrath (1 Thes 5:9-11) and there is no condemnation for those in Christ (Romans 8:1) without breaking His word is beyond me.



Fifthly, when you have trumpets commonly used throughout the Bible, I think it's foolish to just assume any two of the 62 trumps or trumpets are prophetically related. To be able to make the claim that the tribulation trumpet soundings are the same as the rapture trumps, you would need a direct statement saying this is the case. If the seventh trumpet blown is the trumpet that is spoken of in 1 Cor, how in the WORLD did Paul make the connection between the two when it had not yet been revealed is another logical fallacy. John wrote Revelation some 40 years AFTER Paul wrote his firt letter to the Corinthians.



We can also look at the trumpet in Joel 2:1 as evidence that the last trumpet in Revelation is the same as the last trump of 1 Cor. But I do believe there's some issues with that as well. 1) Joel CLEARLY states that the blowing of the trumpet is to "sound an alarm." 2) According to 1 Cor 15:52 (and other passages) the rapture is something that occurs in the twinkling of an eye. Joel 2:1 states that the Day of the Lord is nigh at hand. In order for the trumpet in Joel to be the same trumpet in Paul's letter, there'd have to be a delay between the sounding and the catching away. 3) The fact that there is another trumpet that's also sounded in Joel 2:15 also kinda breaks the supposed connection there.



When Paul wrote what he did, he specifically meant "the" last trump. Most people DON'T bother to look at (because, ya know.. it's OT and part of the Feasts and who needs to study that anymore when Jesus fulfilled it all? *shakes head*) the feasts of Israel nor to study them, although they all would say that the Feasts (which was part of the Law) was a FORSHADOWING of the things to come. I challenge you to study the Feast of Trumpets. Judaism traditionally connected the last and longest blast of the trumpets here with the resurrection of the dead.



I could go on and on but I'll just leave it at this. The catching away of the dead and living in Christ WILL happen as fortold. The only thing that is even possibly in dispute is the WHEN.

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firstfruit2

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Posted : 2 Sep, 2010 11:21 AM

This article will explain better than I could,Just copy and past this link into your browser

http://www.triumphpro.com/wedding-feast.htm

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Posted : 2 Sep, 2010 12:45 PM

Well, I'll certainly check that out if you check this one out. :glow:



http://www.ldolphin.org/wedding.html

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Posted : 2 Sep, 2010 01:40 PM

Matthew 22:1-14 doesn't exactly say what the author is saying it does either. This parable is a complimentary to the parable of the 10 Virgins found in Matthew 25.



The invited guests in Matt 22 are the JEWS. The Jews were the first, originally intended guests for the Wedding. The would not come ie they would not (for the large part, especially the leaders) believe that Jesus was the Messiah (Bridegroom). They rejected Him. Only after this initial rejection were other guests invited. The other guests who DID come after the second invitation was issued are the Gentiles i.e the Church/Bride of Christ. (Psalm 102:18, 118:22-23; Romans 11:11-16).



In Matthew 25, there are 10 virgins- 5 who are ready and 5 who are not. When the Bridegroom comes (Jesus- Jewish tradition/ceremony says the Bridegroom collects his bride at an unknown time/hour so the bride must always be prepared for his coming) the virgins go with Him to the wedding feast. But before a wedding feast happens, there must first be a wedding ceremony. But immediately after the groom collects his bride, they go back to his father's house to consumate the marriage, refer to John 14:1-6. So, when does the marriage occur if the feast is already taking place?

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firstfruit2

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Posted : 2 Sep, 2010 02:25 PM

Agreed,And Thank you for your response,God bless you Sister!

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Posted : 3 Sep, 2010 03:51 AM

@ Vicki:



Hello Vicki:

I believe you have done the mistake of listening to and even reading other peoples understanding of this event called the rapture.



In most of the parables of Yehsua the wicked are taken and the righteous (believers) are left behind.

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Luk 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.

Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.



Also the word Harpadzo is used about 13 times in the new Covenant,once is with Philip and the Etheopian eunich.



Act 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.



Yeshua also used the word Harpadzo in John 10:



John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.



Also the word keep in Revelation 3:10

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.





G5083

τηρέω

tēreō

Thayer Definition:

1) to attend to carefully, take care of

1a) to guard

1b) metaphorically to keep, one in the state in which he is

1c) to observe

1d) to reserve: to undergo something

Part of Speech: verb

This scripture does not talk about the Lord Yeshua taking his people out,yet rather guarding and protecting them during the temptation/Greek thlipsis.



Vicki the body is wrong when they listen to men without reading and studying for themselves.



Please do not put all of your hope into one understanding,for the Word is not exactly clear upon the Tribulation period.



I personally believe there is much Biblical evidence for the believers to be going through the tribulation,whether all or part.



Agape' and Charis:

St.George

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Posted : 3 Sep, 2010 11:43 AM

@George..



I think you are mistaking me with someone who hasn't looked into this. I've studied this subject from every position imaginable- pertrib, post-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath. I'm not following a man's teachings, but what I've gleaned from my own personal study of scripture.



I already knew harpazo was used other times in scripture.



Nor did I say "keep" in Rev meant to take out of. I said the word "from" is the Greek ek- which DOES mean to take out of. Given the context and keeping in mind both words, there are two possible definitions of that verse- they will be removed or they will be supernaturally protected within the tribulation.



As I stated once before, the catching away or rapture will happen as it was foretold. The only thing that can possibly be disputed is the when. I've looked at all of the views, all the scripture listed for each view, and the Pre-trib makes the most sense.. for ME. But for someone to say that 1) the idea only came to be in the 1800', 2) to assumed(once again) that of the 62 trumpets mentioned in scripture two are prophetically linked without direct contextual evidence (and actual historical evidence to the contrary) is erroneous and 3) to say that a person's soul/spirit SLEEPS until the resurrection which is erroneous, unstudied and so antbiblical that it's not even funny. I'm not arguing/discussing or debating the WHEN in my original post. I'm correcting logical fallacies that have occurred within his original post.



If you believe we will go through some or all of the Trib- fine. You're still my brother. But please don't tell me that a concept such as the rapture is antibiblical or even that a pre-trib is antibiblical because every side has it's scriptures and points. None are any more correct than the other- at least not at this point. We'll know for sure when we DO get to see Him face to face.

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Posted : 30 Oct, 2010 06:23 AM

And some people will never get it.. much of it is a basic result of incomplete bible reading.. And I usually don't even waste my time debating with people who cannot see two sides of an issue or don't have the willingness to change when they even see one scripture that throws a kink in their doctrine. And the rapture is not a critical doctrine on salvation either, so why the fuss? I plan on serving Him until I get raptured, die of old age or get persecuted and martyred. There has always been tribulation, even John in revelations speaks of it. But in terms of world wide tribulation, the Christians will not be there.

But in Vicki's defense and defense of pre-trib rapture the answer is in 2Thes 2:1-12 The he who is doing the restraining is the church, vs. 7, not the Holy Spirit like some would say.

But if it is a matter of faith who goes and who stays, I have decided to go and the rest who want to stay can. lol

Have a Blessed day!

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KINGDOMWORK

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Posted : 16 Jun, 2011 12:58 PM

and guess what? so far I havent been shipwrecked, burned at the stake or fed to lions..so it is a good day! no one has to worry about the rapture if they are already worried about how they live their life and if they know Jesus or not and ar covered in His blood.....right? :) peace brother

oh wait....i got something for ya.....:dancingp: :dancingp: :dancingp: :dancingp: :dancingp: :dancingp: :dancingp: :dancingp: :dancingp: :dancingp: :)

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PeaceWithGod

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Posted : 13 May, 2012 12:07 AM

I do not know if anyone of us will know the complete truth and fully understad God since His ways are higher than our ways (Is 55:9), but I know one thing for sure is that I will spend the rest my days working towards loving God with all my heart... and loving my neighbor as myself. I do not know much of theology, but I pray every day to love others and to see them as higher than myself. Mark 12:30-31; Romans 12:10

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