Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
There are some that try to use these scriptures to support a whole movement and unbiblical doctrine.
In coming to the word we need to always be mindful, that the word of God is the Truth, it is without falsehood.
There are so many facts written in the word of God to the integrity of God's word.
John 17:17 � Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
The scriptures are used in Romans to say that the father, will withhold mercy from whom he wants, but when we study scriptures on mercy, we see an entirely different picture.
Nu 14:18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
De 7:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Ho 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.
Jon 2:8 They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.
Mt 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Mt 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
I would encourage all to find any time in the word that the father denied anyone that come unto him for mercy.
Scripture is certainly clear that God is a merciful God. Scripture is also clear that when we set our hearts on seeking God, we will find Him (Acts 17, Jeremiah 29). However, scripture is ALSO clear that man loves the darkness- not the Light. (John 1 & 3) It's clear that man does not, at any time on his own, chose God- God instead choses man. (John 15:16, Isaiah 53). And it's also God has indeed made some vessels as vessels of wrath, marked for condemnation. Jude 4.
If predestination is entirely true (and I'm not entirely convinced that it is, in it's entirety) then no one can hold God up as being unmerciful in His choice of who to save and who to condemn. By rights every last person should be condemned because every last person sins. If it is true that God only choses to show mercy to a select few on a list that was made before the foundations of the world, then that is God's business and none of ours. His ways are right and just whether we understand them or not. Even beyond that every person alive or dead has been a recepient of God's grace in some form. The very fact that He has not wiped us all out is evidence of that- but even more than that, every man, wicked or righteous, gets the sun, the rain, and everything else that was created, is provided and sustained only by the hand of Jesus Christ Himself.
And I think the doctrine of double predestination is incorrect (that God designed some men for hell others for heaven). But predestination is actually Biblical (that God is His sovereignty choses to bring some to salvation). If you'd like, I can certainly list the passages showing that we're chosen, predestine, called and elected.
But God chosing those who will be saved doesn't work against man's choice either. Both concepts are seen in scripture. We all have a choice- all who believe in Jesus will be saved (John 3:16, Romans 10:9-10 Revelation 22:17). The Bible never describes God as rejecting anyone who believes in Him (which also works hand in hand with eternal security btw as those who believe in him are guaranteed eternal life) or turning away any who seek Him (Deut 4:29). But in a way that we may never understand, predestination works alongside begin drawn by God (John 6:44) and believing unto salvation (Romans 1:16). God predestines who is saved, we must chose Christ in order to be saved. Both statements are equally true.
God loves every one of us though...so why aren't we all saved? He doesn't want any to perish. So it just seems to me like there is a working of the holy spirit...and when the spirit convicts us of truth, we have a choice to follow or to turn away/stop up our ears/fall into unbelief. The spirit comes first, and we wouldn't have gone searching for God otherwise...but once we have a knowledge of the truth, I do think we have a choice to make with the free will God created us with.
I agree with you.. Man certainly has a choice. But God also predestinates/choses men for salvation.
But I have been wondering about the whole God loves the and hates the sinner type thing. Psalm 5:5 actually says that God HATES the sinner... John 3:36 tells us that God's wrath REMAINS on those who don't believe. But I haven't really been able to delve into that too deeply yet.
I think of it like this -- man's choice does not in any way eliminate God's will, BECAUSE man is limited; because you were born in a certain year means you cannot affect things that happened before you were born; because you were born in a certain place means that you weren't born in another place; because you are right or left-handed, means that there are certain things you will never think of doing; because you age, there are things you cannot do at certain times. If you keep examining the nature of man, you'll see how restricted his freedom is in comparison to God's all-knowing and all-powerful nature.
Or shortly, do you think that God doesn't know what we are going to do in advance? He made us!
I think it's fair to say that there are some people who will never be saved because they never turn to God. God knows this in advance as well.
So I am advocating predestination, although not a strong form of it.
Yeah, I'm sure the bible does have some form of predestination...but I think it's just more of "God knows what will happen" instead of "God making things happen". There might be a mix of that too, I'm not really sure. My current theory is almost too complicated to explain. I believe that God has a time-line, shown in prophecy, that He has planned out...like the central trunk of a tree. He MAKES this happen, because it is the plan of salvation and it's in the best interest of the whole human race. He HAS to do it to bring salvation into the world, but I think that is as far as His "causative" will goes. The rest of the "tree"/"branches" is a result of His plan of salvation, so you could say God made it all happen indirectly...but I don't think He forces the rest of it. I hope this is making sense...I just believe that while the bible is clear that God knows who is going to be saved...I believe that it is also clear that there is a choice that we have to make after we've been shown the truth by the Holy Spirit.
You have pasted a few sentences of the Word,yet you have not given the Scriptures within the full context,in order to have the right understanding of the Word.
PJ: you have just done what you accuse others of doing,that is not rightly diving the Word of GOD.
With what you have posted you are saying that anyone is capable of coming to the Lord on their own.
Yet this is what the Lord says:
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
No George your response has nothing to do with the truth, There is no darkness in the word of God as you imply.
The word teaches us that the word of God is light not darkness, and that the truth is established with at least two or three scriptures.
The scripture is without question clear God will be merciful to whoever calls upon him in faith.
Now let us look at how you tryed to manipulate the word:
George never did I mention Man coming to the lord on his own, the title is an example on not dividing the word properly.
Here is the post again for you George:
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Example of not Rightly Dividing:
Posted : 1 Sep, 2010 10:15 AM
Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
There are some that try to use these scriptures to support a whole movement and unbiblical doctrine.
In coming to the word we need to always be mindful, that the word of God is the Truth, it is without falsehood.
There are so many facts written in the word of God to the integrity of God's word.
John 17:17 � Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
The scriptures are used in Romans to say that the father, will withhold mercy from whom he wants, but when we study scriptures on mercy, we see an entirely different picture.
Nu 14:18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
De 7:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Ho 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.
Jon 2:8 They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.
Mt 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Mt 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
I would encourage all to find any time in the word that the father denied anyone that come unto him for mercy.
George my father is not a respoctor of persons he told me that in his word. and I believe him.
No George your response has nothing to do with the truth, There is no darkness in the word of God as you imply.
The word teaches us that the word of God is light not darkness, and that the truth is established with at least two or three scriptures.
The scripture is without question clear God will be merciful to whoever calls upon him in faith.
Now let us look at how you tryed to manipulate the word:
George never did I mention Man coming to the lord on his own, the title is an example on not dividing the word properly.
Here is the post again for you George:
View Profile
History
Example of not Rightly Dividing:
Posted : 1 Sep, 2010 10:15 AM
Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
There are some that try to use these scriptures to support a whole movement and unbiblical doctrine.
In coming to the word we need to always be mindful, that the word of God is the Truth, it is without falsehood.
There are so many facts written in the word of God to the integrity of God's word.
John 17:17 � Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
The scriptures are used in Romans to say that the father, will withhold mercy from whom he wants, but when we study scriptures on mercy, we see an entirely different picture.
Nu 14:18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
De 7:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Ho 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.
Jon 2:8 They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.
Mt 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Mt 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
I would encourage all to find any time in the word that the father denied anyone that come unto him for mercy.
George my father is not a respoctor of persons he told me that in his word. and I believe him.
