You have taken so many scriptures out of context and twisted their meaning that it is becoming absurd.
James replies:
Walter, unless you actually give us an example where I have contradicted the context of a scripture or "twisted" its meaning then you are making empty assertions. I am from Missouri.....show me.
Walter continues:
James you should consider trying to make your posts a bit shorter as most people are not going to read them when they are so so long and it makes it near impossible to address every point and correct your numerous errors.
James replies:
So your response is to ignore every question I asked in that post? You could just snip out the questions I asked, and answer them. You realize you have not answered ONE question I have asked you?
Walter continues:
Each post is not designed to be a complete treatise on the whole issue of Calvinism/Arminism yet you seem compelled to try and do so as if you think you are making a stronger case by listing a bunch of scriptures that you "THINK" supports Calvinism. They don't. I could list a bunch of scriptures too that I believe supports my position but that is not how anything meaningful can get accomplished.
James replies:
I have listed about HALF of what I could list, and what you have done is to point to four verses of Scripture that you say Calvinist's use for support of one of the five points, and then proceed to tell us that the translators were biased!
That is NOT making your case, so ignoring the 150 verses used to support the doctrines of Grace, and instead pointing to four verses, and then saying those verses were translated wrong because the translators had a "bias towards Calvinism"!
(And the funny part is, you were critiquing a translation ordered by a roman Catholic king!)
Your critique of four verses of one translation, and then saying "see the Calvinists are wrong here", does not make your case because most Christians are FAR too realistic to pretend that they can critique the TEAMS OF EXPERTS IN GREEK who translate the major translations! Who cares about the KJV? It is time to put that away anyway. If you wish to make the case for Arminianism, you have an impossible task ahead of you. I like the ESV and NAS, because they are super tight word for word translations for modern English speakers. If you find four more verses in those translations that you decide to PRETEND you have the ability to say, "see, the got it wrong here", then you STILL have 146 verses to EXPLAIN!
Walter continues:
Of course I am not surprised that you would fail to admit that the Greek Grammar refutes your position in the article I posted that clearly demonstrates that the word "ALL" in that passage meant ALL MANKIND, NOT just an elect. Jesus said He would draw ALL MEN to Himself. The Greek makes it more than abundantly clear that ALL here is not a few people He would draw... but ALL men. Let me re-quote this.
James replies:
There is a difference between you and I Walter. You PRETEND you have the ABILITY to critique TEAMS of experts who translate the Bible. I DO NOT! Which means, Walter, let's give you the extreme benefit of the doubt.
Lets SAY, you found a verse or two where YOU got it right and ALL the translators, who are EXPERTS in the languages, MISSED a SIMPLE, BASIC, part of the translation, and they ALL missed a simple thing for a thousand years! YOU got it right, and they are ALL wrong!
Walter.........HOW WOULD I KNOW IF YOU ARE RIGHT? I DON"T KNOW GREEK!!
You see Walter I live in the real world. I speak English, and I am Russian language student. I understand a bit of the art and science of translation, and that is only in translating Russian to English and vice versa.
I know that if I gave you a 3by5 card with a paragraph of Greek on it, you could not tell me if it was a portion of Ephesians or a recipe for potato salad!
Now lets, look at the portion of Scripture you gave:
"In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light which gives light to EVERY MAN COMING INTO THE WORLD." (John 1:4-9)
James replies:
There is a Rule of Translation that I use and although EVERY Christian should use it, many don't. Especially fundamentalists.
That rule is called the analogy of faith. It means that unclear verses of Scripture should be translated in light of the clear verses. That way the Bible does not contradict itself. I don't believe the Word of God contradicts itself, and that is why I agree that IF you have a verse that could be translated a couple of different ways, like the one you gave above, then you have to make sure YOUR interpretation does NOT make the Bible contradict itself.
I have no idea if you follow this rule of interpretation but it is very important. for instance, there are four verses in the New Testament that could be translated to mean that a Christian could lose their salvation. But there are also MANY CLEAR verses that say a true Christian can NOT lose their salvation. If you demand that Christian CAN lose their salvation, then my question to you is, WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WITH ALL THE OTHER VERSES THAT SAY THE OPPOSITE OF YOUR INTERPRETATION????
In John 1:4-9 I see that "all.....everyone" that the universal relevance of the gospel is asserted in verse 7.
as well as the enlightening activity of God's common grace in verse 9.
God's saving activity is NOT limited to any particular people, but to people all over the Earth.
And remember this was an entirely NEW CONCEPT that had to be taught!
For the first time in history, God was not going to just save people on ONE SPOT on the earth, near the temple, and not just one KIND of people, the Jews, but ALL KINDS of people from ALL OVER the Earth!
Walter continues:
Scripture indicates that the grace leading to salvation is "resistible." It also plainly states that it is shown to everyone.
James replies:
You have no verses that teach either one of those things. Not everyone who ever lives gets to hear the Gospel.
You know this. Because you KNOW this, you NEED to change your interpretation of that verse don't you?
The "grace leading to salvation" is not resistible, because it is given ONLY to God's chosen people, and like Jesus said, they WILL come to Him! This idea you have of man's will, is meaningless before almighty God.......
Ezekiel 36:26,27 A NEW HEART I will give you, and a NEW SPIRIT I
will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of
stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within
you, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe
my ordinances. (compare Ezekiel 11:19)
Acts 13:48: And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and
glorified the word of God; and as many as were ORDAINED to eternal
life BELIEVED.
Walter continues:
Paul wrote to Titus, "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men." (Titus 2:11). Calvinists frequently claim that the word "all" in such verses does not mean everyone, but can refer to all the elect. It is true that "all" is sometimes limited by the context. However, in this case, "all" is an adjective modifying "men" (anthropos). When "all" is used without modifying a specific noun, it may be limited by the context. That is, its antecedent might be stated elsewhere in the passage or even be implied but not stated. However, when it modifies a particular noun in a specific clause, it cannot be limited by the general context. It is limited only by the noun it modifies. The Greek word "anthropos" (men) refers to humanity, not the "elect." Therefore, the passage cannot rightly be limited to the elect. It refers to everyone.
James replies:
The ESV says "Bringing salvation to all men" I wonder if you can see how Arminianism can lead to universalism?
I know it directly leads people to think that God is like Santa Clause, but it also can lead to universalism.
I have never heard a Calvinist use this verse as support for the doctrines of Grace, so I am assuming you are using it, because all the other "all" verses have been refuted thoroughly, so this is about all you have left.
You are not really saying much here.
the "all men" the writer is talking about should be defined from the context. In Titus 2 the writer starts talking about "older men" and "older women", and then "young women", and then "Husbands", and then "slaves" and then "masters".
So the "all men" or "all people" (verse 11 in ESV) means "all TYPES of people", regardless of age, gender or social class.
Walter continues:
There are two facts we can conclude from Titus 2:11. The first is clearly stated. God's saving grace has been shown to every individual.
James replies:
first, your interpretation HAS to be wrong, because we all KNOW that not everyone who has ever lived has gotten to hear about Jesus!
Are you going to stick to your interpretation even though you KNOW it contradicts reality?
Secondly, God's SAVING Grace, meaning his decision to save people, has been shown to ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE IN ALL WALKS OF LIFE IN ALL NATIONS, etc, etc.
Walter continues:
The second is a necessary inference. Since not all on whom God shows the "grace that bringeth salvation" are saved, God's saving grace cannot be "irresistible" or always "effectual." It is effectual only on those who respond positively.
James replies:
And WHO are the ONLY people who will "respond positively" walter?
Acts 13:48: And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and
glorified the word of God; and as many as were ORDAINED to eternal
life BELIEVED.
John 15:16: You did not choose me, but I CHOSE YOU and APPOINTED YOU
that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide;
so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
Romans 9:10-24.......I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I
will have compassion on whom I have compassion, So it depends not
upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy.....He has mercy
upon whomever he wills...Has the potter no right over the
clay...Vessels of mercy which he has prepared beforehand...
Walter continues:
It is not effectual for those who resist. The same "grace of God that bringeth salvation" was shown to the men Steven addressed in the Sanhedrin. "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." (Acts 7:51).
James...please explain why in this passage also when it clearly shows that certain men were in FACT being drawn by the Holy Spirit,they continued to RESIST the Holy Spirit? Calvinism's position on "Irresistible Grace" cannot stand in light of this. You cannot explain this away. The exegesis of the passage is right on. The Grammar of the Greek fully supports the Arminian position on this and refutes Calvinism. The question is that are you willing to concede to God's truth here or are you going to be so convinced in your own mind that Calvinism cannot be wrong that you will ignore the grammar of the Greek?
James replies:
the verse does NOT say, "certain men were in FACT being drawn by the Holy Spirit"!
This is a speech given by Stephen and he said, "You ALWAYS resist the Holy Spirit".
Why always? You would think with a perfectly free will they would at least SOMETIMES obey the Holy Spirit.
But they don't have a free will. They have a will that is enslaved to Sin just like Scripture says.
But you are right, I do believe that When God has chosen an individual before the Earth was made, and the Jesus died specifically for them, and that when the Holy Spirit enters that person and MAKES them into a new creature, that God's Grace IS irresistible! Another word that may be better than "Irresistible" is "Efficacious" Simply stated, this doctrine asserts that the Holy Spirit never fails to bring to salvation those sinners whom He
personally calls to Christ. He inevitably applies salvation to EVERY
sinner whom he intends to save, and it is His intention to save all
the elect.
Romans 8:30; And those whom he predestined he also CALLED; and those
whom he CALLED he also justified; and those whom he justified he also
glorified.
Remember also Walter, that even though you refused to answer my questions, I will gladly put up Scripture verses for ANY one point that you wish.
In response to your response concerning the word of God, not in defense of Walter. but in light of the word of God is true, as it is written, not as forefathers of calvinism say it is, meaning the word of God.
In your response hear you make it plain by your statements, that you do not accept the word As literal truth.
There is no place in the word of God, you can justify the word interpretation as applied in Calvinism.
Truth is defined as the absense of falsehood.
The word of God continually illustrates believing the word of God as it is written, and that is defined as accepting the word as truth.
That word is used over two hundred times in the new testament.
(Believe) in one form or another, believe, believed, believedest.
The pattern in the old and new testament to establish any truth is two or more scriptures.
Mt 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
2Co 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
We have one passage here that refutes every basic argument of calvinism, and limited atonement, elect, man can do nothing to be saved and also the law of faith.
The topic being being saved, or accepting salvation however you wish to state it.
First and foremost this scripture is so clear, and yes if it is the word of God it is true
All means all and world means all the world
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
In this passage even if you try to discredit the word translated (all) and (world)
The phrase whosoever believeth in him is verified several times in scripture.
If anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10). If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, or that we can be saved by assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the effectual work of the Holy Spirit, who makes all whom He calls gladly and willingly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray from the plain teaching of Scripture by exalting the natural ability of man, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, "For apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, "Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God" (2 Cor. 3:5).
