"DontHitThatMark I didn't say that a prophet prophecies 24/7. Yet when they do it is 100% right and what they teach about scripture is correct also. Read EG Whites stuff and you'll find that much of it doesn't even line up with scripture. It's also known that much of her writings actually came from William Miller. Even though she might have some things right about dietary things, there is much she is wrong on and also has had failed prophecies. Those failed prophecies make her a false prophet. Plain and simple. Can false prophets be right sometimes? Sure they can, but if they have one failed prophecy then they are not a prophet. "
I am an Adventist...and I can prove all my beliefs with lots of scripture. You missed this debate already. If you want to do it again I'd be happy too. What Ellen White says lines up with what I believe to be the truth. I'm sorry if you don't see it the same way, but you're going to have a hard time convincing me that your "truth" is "better". Just like I'd have a hard time convincing you, which is the point I'm trying to make. Instead of holding your beliefs over my head like you know all truth...try witnessing about what you believe to be the truth. Sharing how your beliefs impact your life. Telling me your point of view, instead of cutting down mine. Anyway...like I said, your view of truth is not the same as mine. If you believe you're doing all you need to do to serve God then I won't question your conviction and I will not call you "false" even though I don't agree with your beliefs. If you want to turn it into a "I'm right, you're wrong" battle...I don't think you're going to convince anyone. It kinda annoys me when people insinuate that they are somehow more perfect or that they are somehow infallible. I'm sorry, but I know you are not perfect. I know I am not perfect. I know I might not have all truth, and I know you might not either. I have to believe what I see in God's word or I'm going against my conscience. I won't tell you I know I'm right. I'll tell you I hope I'm right, or I believe I'm right. Why? Because I know I'm not perfect and I know I can't know for sure, I can only hope. I'm not immune to error.
As far as your claim that "Ellen White has failed prophecies"...I read the website you gave, and there were a couple that I could see your point on, even though %95 of the claims were almost laughable...but I still believe that prophecies can "fail". Sure, they have to be exactly what God says...but I'm still waiting for a verse that says all prophecies must come to pass perfectly for you to be a true prophet. The bible never says "you will know them by their prophecies".
MATTHEW 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
2 PETER 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
1 JOHN 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
So I'll ask...what kind of fruits did Ellen White bear? Was she pretending to be a messenger of God for money? Fame? Did she try to lead people away from Christ to worship false gods? Did she deny Jesus's sacrifice? Or did she really believe what she was saying and try to live what she believed to be the truth? Followed God as best she could? Tried to lead people back to the bible? I'm pretty sure the latter describes her life the best. So I'm kinda hesitant to call her a false prophet. She bore good fruit. I don't want to be like Israel and stone all of God's prophets and kill Jesus. The fact that not many like Ellen White might even be more proof.
"Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets" Luke 6:26
Anyway...Adventists are good Christians that love God. If you have a problem with a Adventist belief then point it out. I'll give you the biblical support for it.
I am not sure that Seventh Day adventism is even Christian.
The reason is that I have heard two things, and I have no way of knowing if they are true or not, but two things, that IF true, would make me say that Seventh Day adventism is not of the faith.
1. I heard that when a person decided to become a member of this church, that they have to swear some kind of oath, saying that Ellen White is a true prophet or something to that effect.
2. I have heard that in the SDA book of beliefs that they teach that you are not really forgiven of your sins when you repent and trust in Jesus. That actual forgiveness of sins occurs when God looks at your overall life on Judgment day.
Now, number one is creepy enough, but if number two is true then to me that denies justification by faith alone, and THAT is the center of the Christian faith.
Two other things that have always bothered me about the SDA is that one, they are pacifists, and I find that disgusting and the opposite of Being a Man of God.
The other is the saturday only worship, and that is just flat out the opposite of What Christians have believed for two thousand years.
Here is what I found on the Christian apologetics and research ministry, www.carm.org
What does Seventh Day Adventism teach?
Affirmations
1. The Bible is inspired and the word of God.
2. Trinitarian: The Father, Son, Holy Spirit are all one God in three persons.
3. Jesus is God and has always existed with the Father.
4. The Holy Spirit is a person.
5. Jesus' sacrifice was vicarious.
6. Salvation is by grace, not works.
7. Jesus rose from the dead physically in his glorified body.
8. Jesus ascended bodily into heaven.
9. Baptism is by immersion
10. The literal, visible return of Jesus.
11. Jesus will return to set up a millennial kingdom. They are Premillennial.
12. Literal six day creation, not long periods.
Denials
1. Denies the doctrine of predestination
2. Denies baptism by sprinkling
3. Denies infant baptism.
4. Denies the immortality of the soul.
5. Denies the eternality of hell fire.
6. Denies any use of alcohol (as a drink) or tobacco.
Aberrant
1. Our sins will ultimately be placed on Satan.1
2. Jesus is Michael the Archangel.
3. Worship must be done on Saturday (the Sabbath).
4. On October 22, 1844 Jesus entered the second and last phase of his atoning work.
5. Investigative Judgment - the fate of all people will be decided based upon this event in the future.
6. The dead do not exist anymore -- soul sleep.
7. The wicked are annihilated.
8. Ellen G. White, the "founder" of Seventh Day Adventism, was a messenger from God gifted with the spirit of prophecy.
9. There is a sanctuary in heaven where Jesus carries out his mediatorial work.
Strange stuff indeed, and one last reason I have always disliked the SDA...... Strange bad theology, can lead to even worse bad theology, and the founders of the CULT the Watchtower and Tract Society, Charles Taze Russell, and Judge Rutherford, CAME OUT OF the SDA.
They were members there and left after a few years, and formed their OWN cult. I also don't care for how the SDA got its start. Miller was a nut, and well, I think I have given you enough to deal with for now.
1. The Bible is inspired and the word of God. -Yes
2. Trinitarian: The Father, Son, Holy Spirit are all one God in three persons. -Yes
3. Jesus is God and has always existed with the Father. -Yes
4. The Holy Spirit is a person. -Uh...the Holy Spirit is a spirit...part of the Godhead.
5. Jesus' sacrifice was vicarious. -I'm not sure what that means, but Jesus's sacrifice was enough for all sin.
6. Salvation is by grace, not works. -Yes, but a truly converted person tries to do good works and follow God's/Jesus's commands out of love.
7. Jesus rose from the dead physically in his glorified body. -Not sure. When He appeared to the apostles He looked the same. Had the scars. When He comes again He looks completely different...unless it's symbolic...so...I don't know. If a glorified body looks the same as a degenerated human body, then yes, but I would say that it makes sense that He received His glorified body when He ascended to heaven.
8. Jesus ascended bodily into heaven. -Yes
9. Baptism is by immersion -Yes
10. The literal, visible return of Jesus. -Yes
11. Jesus will return to set up a millennial kingdom. They are Premillennial. -Not sure what that means again, we believe the saved live and reign with Christ in heaven for the millennium to look over the books and judge the wicked to vindicate God in front of the heavenly witnesses, to prove that all He did was right and just.
12. Literal six day creation, not long periods. -Yes
Denials
1. Denies the doctrine of predestination -Not really, just Calvin's version.
2. Denies baptism by sprinkling -Yes
3. Denies infant baptism. -Yes
4. Denies the immortality of the soul. -Yes
5. Denies the eternality of hell fire. -Yes
6. Denies any use of alcohol (as a drink) or tobacco. -Kinda. It's hard to believe any christian can support things that bring so much harm to the world/their body...but it's ultimately between them and God. I don't drink or smoke because I think it's irresponsible, not because the bible tells me not to....even though it kinda does...
Aberrant
1. Our sins will ultimately be placed on Satan. -Kinda, Satan suffers for causing our sins. That's why he's trying to deceive as many as possible. He doesn't suffer punishment for the unsaved, they are responsible for their own punishment. What is the symbolism between the Lord's Goat and the Scape Goat in the sacrificial system? The Lord's Goat was sacrificed for sin(Jesus right?), and the scape goat was separated from God forever after having the sins that were forgiven placed on it(Satan right? Or are they both Jesus?)
2. Jesus is Michael the Archangel. -Yes. Just posted something about this...
3. Worship must be done on Saturday (the Sabbath). -No, but working for your own gain on the Sabbath is viewed by Adventists as sin. The 10 commandments point out sin.
4. On October 22, 1844 Jesus entered the second and last phase of his atoning work. -Yes
5. Investigative Judgment - the fate of all people will be decided based upon this event in the future. -No, God already knows, but the whole plan of salvation wass to prove to the universe that Satan was wrong and God was right. Can't really prove anything if God keeps the whole process in His head, right? God could have just blasted all sinners with fire and said "I'm right, believe me"...but the angels in heaven cannot see the future, and Satan was deceitful enough to place enough doubt in 1/3 of them and cause them to fall...so...there's a process for the benefit of the unfallen beings, so they will have no doubt that God is just.
6. The dead do not exist anymore -- soul sleep. -No/Yes. The dead's "spirit/breath" return to God in heaven, but the person is unconscious/sleeping until Jesus comes back.
7. The wicked are annihilated. -Yes
8. Ellen G. White, the "founder" of Seventh Day Adventism, was a messenger from God gifted with the spirit of prophecy. -Yes
9. There is a sanctuary in heaven where Jesus carries out his mediatorial work. -Yes
And we don't "swear an oath". It's a statement of belief. If you believe everything the Adventist church teaches, and you want to become part of it...then automatically you believe what Ellen White says...it's kinda the same thing...if that makes sense. Adventists believe our doctrines are from the bible, and Ellen White supports all of them...so if you believe the doctrines of Adventism...then you believe Ellen White...by default...but there was no "oath swearing" when I was baptized into the church. The pastor just went through the doctrines of the church and asked "Do you believe..." for each one and I did believe...so I said "yes". But just to be clear, if I did not have scriptural support for my beliefs I would not believe them, and I would not believe Ellen White. I do believe I have support though...and I'm sure if a "prophet" came to your church and believed and taught everything you did then you'd believe you had a prophet as well.
Doctrinal Belief - 18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)
SDA's are pacifists? I'm not a pacifist, but you have to have a very high sense of duty and "rightness" to go into war to kill other human beings. You can't just go into war, think that you're on God's side, and start killing people. But anyway...it's not a belief of the Adventist church that every member has to be a pacifist. There are many men in my church that were WWII veterans or ex-military...and I was even considering joining the military at one point. I would have probably become a medic, but I also would have carried a gun...because in my mind, not carrying a gun could cause the death of many of my fellow soldiers inadvertently...but I could see why some would have the conflict of conscience over killing another human.
It would be safe to say that you and I do not believe the same doctrines as taught in the Bible. Our hermeneutical understanding of Scriptures is so different we can not call each other brothers in Christ because you have a radically different version of who Christ is.
hit said "And we don't "swear an oath". It's a statement of belief. If you believe everything the Adventist church teaches, and you want to become part of it...then automatically you believe what Ellen White says...it's kinda the same thing...if that makes sense."
... wow... just wow...
1 Corinthians 1:23 (King James Version) "But we preach Christ crucified,..." i really do not understand where all the extra stuff falls into place. i've never read anything in the bible that commanded me to follow/believe anyone but Jesus. that one sentence from you hit is enough to convince me that S.D.A is cultish... wow...
"If you believe everything the Adventist church teaches, and you want to become part of it...then automatically you believe what Ellen White says.." WOW!!!
so... if your an adventist, your a Ellen White follower? is that what i am hearing from your own mouth?
No...I'm saying...that Adventists have beliefs from the bible...if you need me too I can go through them all and show you the scriptural support. Ellen White believes those same beliefs from the bible. If she didn't, we wouldn't think she was a prophet...can you see the difference? The bible comes first, but if you believe the bible like an Adventist does...then you believe like Ellen White does...because she believes the same thing. It would be like you...having the same beliefs as someone else that goes to your church...but that someone else just happens to be a prophet, lol. I hope I'm making sense here. I believe the bible first, and if Ellen White did not match up with my beliefs I would not consider her "of God". She would be a false prophet. MY point is...just because she doesn't agree with your beliefs doesn't make her a false prophet. You and your beliefs could be just as wrong as me and mine. Making any sense?
Ok....what if a person came to you that believed everything you did, and they said "I've received a vision from God" and they continue to tell you this "message" and it matches your beliefs perfectly. Would you consider them a prophet? Do you believe God uses prophets? Do you believe there will be prophets in the last days? There must be, because there are so many warning against false prophets. If there were never going to be any real prophets God would have just said "anyone that says they are a prophet is false". So are you against prophets or just prophets that don't believe like you? Are you against Christian's that don't believe like you or just Christians that don't believe like you and happen to have a prophet that matches their beliefs?
i got it. it still sounds like following her to me, i mean if when she says something you guys run to the bible and try to prove it true then is that not following? ok, ok, maybe not all of you would phrase it like that, and would prefer to say verify... probably not all her teaching match up to the word of God, fine... but why call her a prophet? why is she on such a pedestal that she must be defended like God spoke from heaven and said to her "this is my beloved ellen in whom i am well pleased"?
i will never understand why is she so important. and why one would hinge his/her salvation on the word of someone who was not published in the bible. if God wanted her there, no doubt she would be. and the whole conception of your denom is controversial to say the least.
i hope you do not feel attacked, those are just my thoughts on the matter...
Well...then you're just not seeing what I mean...Ellen White is not necessary for salvation...people that don't believe in Ellen White aren't going to hell. People that believe differently then me aren't going to hell. Ellen White places full emphasis on searching the scriptures for yourself, and I always have. I've only read 2 of her books. One was about the history of the plan of salvation and one was about the life of Jesus. Not very deep as far as doctrinal influence goes. But I know very well that my churches beliefs could be my beliefs because it's just what I was brought up in...believe me, I've had my doubts. But when I read the bible, I see far more proof for my beliefs than anything else I've seen so far. And on top of that...after seeing it in the bible...it just makes perfect sense to me. What I believe leaves no questions in my mind. So I'm just going to have to follow and witness about what I believe to be the truth. If I'm wrong, I hope...very much....that God will decide to lighten my path...and soon. But when I try to see other peoples beliefs in the bible, I always get "well...what about this verse...and this one...and this one..." in my mind. I just can't do it. So either my ears are stopped up and I'm blind and lost...or I'm exactly where God wants me to be. I think you know which I hope it is.:prayingm:
no worries man. i'm not saying that she's your salvation, just was really confused about why she was so important. and what you wrote about the statement of belief was not helping .... i see it clearer now tho. God bless!
