Calvinists take their theory to the next logical plateau, by claiming the blood atonement of Christ was limited to the elect only. Christ died only for the sins of the elect. If one is not elect, Christ did not die for his sins. Support for this idea is derived from passages that speak of Jesus' dying for our (believer's) sins. However, that some passages specifically apply the atonement to believers does not exclude the non-elect any more than my saying "Jesus died for me" necessarily means He did not die for anyone else! It does not follow logically that such passages rule out the atonement being open to all. Other Scriptures flatly contradict the Calvinist position here.
1 Tim 2:1-6
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made FOR ALL MEN;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom FOR ALL, to be testified in due time.(KJV)
The reason I included verses 1-5, rather than just verse 6, is because Calvinists claim Paul was speaking of "all the elect" in verse 6, not all mankind. But, the context proves he was speaking of mankind in general. "All men" in verse 1 includes (but is not limited to) "kings and all in authority." Obviously, this is not referring specifically to the "elect." In verse 4 Paul wrote it is God's will for "all men" to be saved. He was still speaking of the general population for whom we are to pray, not just the "elect." The same holds true for verse 6, where Paul said Jesus "gave Himself a ransom for all." The context is still all of mankind.
1 John 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
(KJV)
John stated that Christ's substitutionary sacrifice was for the whole world. Some Calvinists argue that this verse means Christ died not only for the Jewish "elect" but also for the Gentile "elect" out of every nation. The words "whole world" mean a remnant of "elect" from every nation according to Calvinists. But a careful examination of John's words rules out this understanding. John's epistles were written after the other Apostles were dead and he had the care of the churches of Asia Minor. As the aged apostle and elder of these churches, his epistles were written primarily to Gentile believers. Therefore, when he wrote, "He is the propitiation for our sins," he included his readers who were predominantly Gentiles, representing a variety of nations, in the first person plural personal pronoun, "our." Therefore Gentile believers from all nations must be included in the first group, and their sins are represented by the words, "our sins" (John's and his Gentile readers'). Then he wrote, "and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." He was speaking of a second group in addition to his mostly Gentile audience. Had John meant the Jewish remnant when he said "our sins," he would have said "and not ours only, but also yours." By his writing, "the sins of the whole world," John was speaking of the unsaved who will never experience the effect of Christ's atonement because of their unbelief. But that atonement is available to all as the following verses prove.
Isaiah 53:5,6
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (KJV)
If all of humanity is included in the "all" and "every one" who have gone astray, then Christ bore the sins of the very same "all." That is, the sins of all humanity. But, even if we say that Isaiah limited his comments to Israel, the problem remains for Calvinists, because the same "all" that referred to the whole nation of Israel must also mean the very same "all" for whom Christ died. Unless every Jew will be saved, Calvinism cannot stand in light of Isaiah's prophecy.
1 Timothy 4:9,10
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour OF ALL MEN, SPECIALLY OF THOSE THAT BELIEVE. (KJV)
Here a clear distinction was drawn by Paul between those who believe, and those who do not believe. Yet, Christ is the Saviour of "all men." That is, His atonement is for all. (See also: Rom. 5:6,8,18, 2 Cor. 5:14,15, Gal. 3:22, 1 John 2:2). It is not that His atonement is effective for all, because most do not accept His atonement. But, it is available for all.
We also have clear Scripture indicating Jesus provided redemption for even the false prophets who are destined for destruction!
2 Pet 2:1
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord THAT BOUGHT THEM, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
The context of this passage is plain that the Gnostic "false teachers" will be damned. Yet, Peter stated plainly that the Lord "bought" (redeemed) them. One might argue that they were not actually "saved." If so, then being "bought" (redeemed) must refer to Christ's atonement for the sins of the lost. Whether being "bought" (redeemed) refers to actual salvation or only potential salvation, either way it refutes "limited atonement."
James posting a bunch of scriptures, does not make it a limited atonement.
Election as defined by Calvinism does not change the word of God
For a word to be established one needs two or three witnesses, scriptures.
You can not corrupt the word by the word. Thy word is truth!!
Romans 10:1 � Brethren, my heart�s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God�s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 � For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
In context speaking of how to be saved the word says:
verse four everyone, everyone means everyone that believes this word
Verses nine thou is everyone, or whosever
verse eleven whosever means whoever.
verse twelve all again
verse thirteen whosoever again.
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
To save sinners, that covers all
Mt 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
1 � Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6 � For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ�s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
No limited atonement all is all
by the way the word declares this concerning being born again
1 st Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
More Scriptures that show that Jesus died for a group of people and not everyone who ever lived...........
(Isaiah 53:8-11) "He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. {9} And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. {10} Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. {11} He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities."
(Isaiah 63:9) "In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old."
(Daniel 9:24) "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."
(Matthew 20:28) "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."
(Matthew 26:28) "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."
(John 10:11) "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep."
(John 10:15) "As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep."
(John 10:26) "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you."
(John 11:51-52) "And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; {52} And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad."
(Romans 5:11) "And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement."
(Romans 5:15) "But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many."
(Romans 5:19) "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
(Romans 8:33-34) "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. {34} Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."
(2 Corinthians 5:21) "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
(Galatians 3:13) "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:"
(Ephesians 1:7) "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"
(Colossians 1:14) "In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:"
(Titus 2:14) "Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."
(Hebrews 1:1-3) "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, {2} Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; {3} Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;"
(Hebrews 2:16) "For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham."
(Hebrews 9:12) "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."
(Hebrews 9:28) "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."
(Hebrews 10:10-14) "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. {11} And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: {12} But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; {13} From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. {14} For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."
(1 Peter 1:18-20) "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; {19} But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: {20} Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,"
(1 Peter 2:21) "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:"
(1 Peter 3:18) "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"
(1 John 3:16) "Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren."
(Revelation 1:5-6) "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, {6} And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."
(Revelation 5:9-10) "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; {10} And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."
You quoted John 10:28-29 as a support for your belief. This passage does not support and Calvinistic theology. Let's examine the passage and it is vital that you pay close attention to the Grammar.
This is from another thread with Leon so I will just paste it over to this thread as it is about the same passage.
Let me explain how the Greek works and why it cannot include yourself within the context as "no one" or "anyone".
John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall "anyone" (tis)"snatch"(harpazo)(Middle Voice) "them"(autos) out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and "no one" is able to "snatch" "them" out of My Father's hand.NKJV
Pronouns can be First person, Second person or Third person.
*First Person refers to the person speaking ( "I", "we").
*Second person refers to the person being spoken to ( you").
*Third person refers to all others ("he","she","it","they",etc.)
The Greek word for "anyone" is "TIC" or pronounced "tis." Verse 28. This is what appears in the Majority Text. This word is a pronoun that is Nominative Singular Masculine. Right next to it is another personal pronoun.. "THEM" or in Greek..."autos" pronounced "aw-tos". It is Accusative Plural Neuter. Both are Third Person.
When ever you have two pronouns back to back they can never be the same as both being plural or both being singular. One can be one but the other must be different.
So in other words you cannot include yourself within the word "no one" or "anyone" as they are Third Person singular.
An additional problem you will have is the verb "SNATCH".("Harpazo" in Greek) This verb and it's relation to the personal pronouns forbids "YOU" from being able to pluck yourself or "snatch" yourself. Those verbs require an exterior force exclusive of yourself. So the translators got this one correct after all and as such the Grammar clearly demonstrates, while fully supported by the Greek, that while a person is secure in Christ in that no external force can take you away or remove you from His hand, it does not preclude you or me or anyone from walking away from Him and committing Apostasy.
When you examine the words through the various sources, they all bring about the same conclusion in this verse 28 & 29. Here is the problem with your argument. The verb "SNATCHING" which is in the "ACTIVE" voice determines who is doing the snatching. The subject which is "no man" or no one, is performing the action "snatching" in the active voice does not include himself or else it would have to be in the middle voice. If the word "snatching" was in the "middle voice" then you would have a good case you could defend by saying that you could snatch yourself. But it is not in the middle voice. It is in the "Active voice". The verb settles the argument. The verb does not allow you to snatch yourself.
Every example in scripture where "snatch" is used in the "Active Voice" is in 100% agreement with what I have presented. You would have to show clear scriptures where the verb snatch used in the "active voice" agrees with your position. They don't exist.
Mat 11:12
Mat 12:29
Mat 13:19
John 6:15
John10:12
John10:28
John10:29
Acts 8:39
Acts 23:10
1 Thess 4:17
Jude 1:23
In each case the Verb Snatch is in the "active voice" and demonstrates that the party doing the snatching cannot be of the same group or person that is being snatched. You cannot twist the pronouns to contradict the grammatical rules. It's just plain and simple. This is why it is so important to study Greek and not have to rely too heavily on the opinions of others as they can be bias at times and sometimes will even blow smoke.
So show me a verse where the Greek Verb for snatch is in the "Active Voice" that agrees with your position and I will gladly concede that you have a defense for your case.
So in other words James, this passage does not support your conclusions. This passage does not address a person's FREE WILL to walk away from Christ.
Those who believe in the Doctrine of OSAS or Once Saved Always Saved/Eternal Security use the below verses among others to support their belief. However upon close examination of the passages, when we apply the rules of Hermeneutics we find that the exegesis does not support their claims. Let's look.
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given [past tense] me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Here we see that the persons Jesus was referring to are not Christians as a whole but specifically and exclusively the Apostles. Jesus did not lose any of the apostles except Judas whom He calls "the son of perdition."
The scripture was fulfilled at Jesus' arrest in the garden. See below.
John 18:8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:
9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
In verse 8 above while Jesus was being arrested in the garden, He told His captures to leave His Apostles alone. That they had obtained who they were seeking. Additionally John continues and says that this was said and done "that the saying might be fulfilled". What saying? John is referring back to John 6:39 and John 17:12. In each instance Jesus was referring specifically to the Apostles and not Christians as a whole. We therefore cannot take these passages and then apply them to mean or include anyone else. These verses do not support OSAS or Eternal Security as they do NOT apply to us Christians.
